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As a shooting attack, the controller of the chariot gets to make it hit the vehicle.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
avedominusnox wrote: What happens in this case? I mean you target the unit? Or you can't? Since The Lord has LD and the chariot doesn't. I am concussed.
As a witchfire, it's treated as a shooting attack, so the necron player will most likely choose to make it go on the chariot, which, as a vehicle, is not affected.
So due to skriek being a witchfire the controller chooses chariot over rider, then chariot has no LD and does not take wounds so it is something like illegal target and resolves to nothing?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok understood. Thanks for the answers. Btw does the ability of te chariot to hit with the lords attacks overides even invisibility? As I recall it say that it hits on 3s or 4s.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 22:09:39
Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.
wounds is a characteristic
as psychic shriek does wounds the necron player can nominate the attack hits the chariot, but it would still uses the riders LD
For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the rider’s profile.
or possibly LD 0 since the chariot has no LD
psychic shriek then modifies the targets wounds, although the chariot does not have wounds the rider does and things that modify any characteristic affect both regardless of who you allocate it to.
And yes wounds is a characteristic
so yes, psychic shriek hits the rider regardless of what the necron player decides to do with nominating where the shot goes.
To say that shriek works because it modifies the wounds characteristic means that anything that causes wounds would apply to both the vehicle AND the rider. So shooting and causing a glancing hit would also cause a wound to the rider. Psychic shriek does not modify the wounds characteristic, taking wounds modifies the wounds characteristic.
Psychic shriek is also not a characteristic test. It does not say to take a test of any kind, and there is no pass or fail. It is merely comparing the sum of 3 dice to a leadership characteristic. This is evidenced by the fact that you CANNOT take a characteristic test using the "leadership" characteristic (page 13 under characteristic tests). Those are called leadership tests, and Leadership tests are taken on 2D6, not 3. In order for Psychic shriek to qualify as a leadership test the wording would have to be "target takes a leadership tests on 3D6".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 23:25:45
Glancing isn't a characteristic so that makes no sense.
and reducing wounds is modifying the value.
and yes anything that causes wounds by the raw for the vehicle applies to both the vehicle and the rider, but in most cases this has no effect, because you don't cause wounds when firing a weapon that has a strength value versus vehicle armor, and glancing hit on the vehicle doesn't translate to anything that modifies a characteristic.
the end result is allocating the psychic shriek to the vehicle still removes wounds from the rider.
its also worth noting the "hit pool" that a player is allowed to allocate for chariots hits that have "different strengths, AP values, or special rules that affect saving throws or wounds they inflict."
psychic shriek doesn't have any special rules as defined by the special rules section, and does not have an AP or strength value. As such it wouldn't even be able to be allocated by the necron player as one of the forementioned pools.
further psychic shriek states if affects a unit, the target unit does have a LD value. Which is the LD of the rider of the chariot. Rolling 3d6 vs ld would generate a number of wounds the target unit would suffer .
Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
suffering is a profile modifier. e.g. enfeeble which is a profile modifier "Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit suffers a -1 penalty to both Strength and Toughness"
wound is a characteristic
"Wounds (W) This characteristic tells us how much damage a creature can take before it dies (or is so badly hurt that.."
chariots and charateristic modifiers "any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot."
RAW you absolutely take wounds to the rider from psychic shriek.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 01:41:55
blaktoof wrote: Glancing isn't a characteristic so that makes no sense.
and reducing wounds is modifying the value.
and yes anything that causes wounds by the raw for the vehicle applies to both the vehicle and the rider, but in most cases this has no effect, because you don't cause wounds when firing a weapon that has a strength value versus vehicle armor, and glancing hit on the vehicle doesn't translate to anything that modifies a characteristic.
the end result is allocating the psychic shriek to the vehicle still removes wounds from the rider.
its also worth noting the "hit pool" that a player is allowed to allocate for chariots hits that have "different strengths, AP values, or special rules that affect saving throws or wounds they inflict."
psychic shriek doesn't have any special rules as defined by the special rules section, and does not have an AP or strength value. As such it wouldn't even be able to be allocated by the necron player as one of the forementioned pools.
further psychic shriek states if affects a unit, the target unit does have a LD value. Which is the LD of the rider of the chariot. Rolling 3d6 vs ld would generate a number of wounds the target unit would suffer .
Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
suffering is a profile modifier. e.g. enfeeble which is a profile modifier "Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit suffers a -1 penalty to both Strength and Toughness"
wound is a characteristic
"Wounds (W) This characteristic tells us how much damage a creature can take before it dies (or is so badly hurt that.."
chariots and charateristic modifiers "any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot."
RAW you absolutely take wounds to the rider from psychic shriek.
Uh no. Suffering wounds is not modifying a model's wound characteristic. Read psychic shriek. It does not modify wounds characteristic.
Psychic shriek is a witchfire attack which resolves a shooting attack. Per BRB the chariot player merely assigns that shooting attack to the chariot profile and the effect is effectively nullified. The end result is what would happen if you tried to psychic shriek a rhino. It's perfectly legal to psychic shriek a rhino and the shriek would effectively do nothing.
I see you failed to read most of what was written, well done!
allow me to retort in the same manner.
Uhh no. Suffering is modifying, and wounds is a characteristic.
The difference between enfeeble and psychic shriek is which characteristics they modify, and one calls out the modification only lasts as long as the power is in effect.
the chariot player assigns the attack to the chariot and RAW it affects both the chariot and rider as it is a characteristic modifier.
the comment on the rhino has 0 bearing on this topic as the rhino has no LD value in its unit of rhino, unlike the CCB which does have an LD value in its unit-the rider, and the rhino is not a chariot.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 02:04:41
blaktoof wrote: I see you failed to read most of what was written, well done!
allow me to retort in the same manner.
Uhh no. Suffering is modifying, and wounds is a characteristic.
The difference between enfeeble and psychic shriek is which characteristics they modify, and one calls out the modification only lasts as long as the power is in effect.
the chariot player assigns the attack to the chariot and RAW it affects both the chariot and rider as it is a characteristic modifier.
the comment on the rhino has 0 bearing on this topic as the rhino has no LD value in its unit of rhino, unlike the CCB which does have an LD value in its unit-the rider, and the rhino is not a chariot.
Show in the rules where suffer means explicitly modify this characteristic. Otherwise you are making stuff up.
show in the rules where it explicitly states the necron player can allocate psychic shriek on chariots, and do nothing to the rider part of the unt or you are making stuff up despite it not having a str/ap value which is required for creating pools to allocate by the RAW.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
avedominusnox wrote: So due to skriek being a witchfire the controller chooses chariot over rider, then chariot has no LD and does not take wounds so it is something like illegal target and resolves to nothing?
Its not an illegal target. It just has no effect.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
show in the rules where it explicitly states the necron player can allocate psychic shriek on chariots, and do nothing to the rider part of the unt or you are making stuff up despite it not having a str/ap value which is required for creating pools to allocate by the RAW.
Spoiler:
SHOOTING AT CHARIOTS
When shooting at a Chariot unit, total up the number of successful hits that have been caused. Keep the dice that have scored hits and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a hit. If there are hits with different Strengths, AP values or special rules that affect saving throws or any Wounds they inflict, split them into several pools of hits. All hits with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the hits are the same, there will be only one hit pool.
The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit. If several pools of hits need to be allocated, the player making the attacks must decide in which order they are resolved. All hits from a single pool must be allocated and resolved before moving on to the next pool of hits. Hit pools from Blast and Template weapons are always resolved against the Chariot. If the Chariot model is hit by a Precision Shot, that hit is allocated by the firer, not the owning player. When resolving successful hits that have been assigned to a Chariot, work out which of its Armour Values to use as you would for any other vehicle, based on the position of the model compared to the model firing at it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For it to work as you want it, Psychic Shriek would have to read.
Spoiler:
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a -X penalty to Wounds where X is equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against the modification to Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
But it doesn't read that way and you are just confusing yourself.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 02:19:22
you are absolutely incorrect and presenting falsehoods to support it.
suffer is a modifier
wounds is a characteristic
suffer is used throughout the rulebook to discuss the reduction of a characteristic from other psychic powers, e.g. enfeeble, to areas where models lose wounds "model suffers a wound, reduce its wounds from 1 to 0 and remove as casualty"
Never claimed that glancing was a characteristic. Glancing takes a hull point, and Hull Points is a characteristic.
The "hit pool" you're referring to is to segregate hits of different types. the "hit" from psychic shriek's rolling to hit step would be in a pool of it's own. But how many hits that is is impossible to determine because as a shooting attack it has no weapon profile, but that debate is covered in several other threads. But the "hit(s)" caused by psychic shriek would indeed be in a pool of their own with a strength of "-" and an AP of "-".
The controller of the chariot then allocates that hit to the chariot rather than the rider. Psychic shriek then resolves and rolls against the leadership (of which there is none) and cannot be resolved. The rule that requires the highest leadership to be used is for leadership tests, which this is not because it is taken on 3 dice, and the firer is rolling the dice, not the target.
The rule for "Models with multiple profiles" on page 13 that says models with more than one value for the same characteristic always use the higher value for characteristic tests also does not apply here because again, psychic shriek is NOT a characteristic test as defined in the rules.
the rule on page 86 that says that you always use the rider's profile for characteristic tests ALSO doesn't apply here because psychic shriek is not a characteristic test.
The fact that psychic Shriek is NOT a leadership test is what prevents it from affecting chariots, because it cannot be resolved against targets with no leadership value. Since psychic shriek must roll to hit (even though how to properly roll to hit for psychic shriek is not defined in the rulebook), that hit can be allocated to the vehicle profile, which has no leadership value.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 02:28:32
blaktoof wrote: you are absolutely incorrect and presenting falsehoods to support it.
suffer is a modifier
wounds is a characteristic
suffer is used throughout the rulebook to discuss the reduction of a characteristic from other psychic powers, e.g. enfeeble, to areas where models lose wounds "model suffers a wound, reduce its wounds from 1 to 0 and remove as casualty"
You are wildly confused about what "suffer" means here. It is not signaling by itself that the characteristic is modified. This is all basic semantics.
Spoiler:
5-6 - You! You’re a Traitor! Paranoia sets in and the panicked warriors
lash out at their commanders. Randomly select one character in the target unit. That model suffers a single Strength 3 hit for every other model in the target unit.
In the above example obviously "suffers" is not carrying with it a process to modify a characteristic. Your level of confusion leads me to ask, is English your native language?
Guys, deep breath. Enough with the personal attacks. Stick to debating the rules. Whether or not "Suffer"ing is a modifying process or not is irrelevant here. Before we even get to that step we need to determine how many wounds are "suffered" against a target with no leadership value. Since that is impossible, the target cannot "suffer" ANY wounds unless the chariot's controller allows the hit(s) to be resolved against the rider.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 02:44:47
Bojazz wrote: Guys, deep breath. Enough with the personal attacks. Stick to debating the rules.
I apologize for my bluntness. The argument is breaking down to a point where blaktoof is attributing wildly more meaning to "suffers" than is in the semantics of the sentence itself, which should be obvious to a native speaker. Characteristic modification is carried by such phrases as "-1 penalty to" but not "suffers"
Bojazz wrote: Guys, deep breath. Enough with the personal attacks. Stick to debating the rules. Whether or not "Suffer"ing is a modifying process or not is irrelevant here. Before we even get to that step we need to determine how many wounds are "suffered" against a target with no leadership value. Since that is impossible, the target cannot "suffer" ANY wounds unless the chariot's controller allows the hit(s) to be resolved against the rider.
Actually, the target does have a Ld value since the target is the unit, a single model with a dual profile. It's actually more a question of which value do you use since it is a mixed value unit. As pointed out, it's not a test. It's similar to the debate about mixed save units when using Grav weapons. We also don't know how it interacts with vehicles. In the Rhino's case, we don't know whether it doesn't affect it because it has no Ld value or because it can't suffer wounds. We're not given direction as to whether the non existent value translates to "0" or immunity. The end result for the Rhino is the same, so no reason for debate. Not so for the Chariot.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 03:13:24
The rule for "Models with multiple profiles" on page 13 that says models with more than one value for the same characteristic always use the higher value for characteristic tests also does not apply here because again, psychic shriek is NOT a characteristic test as defined in the rules.
The controller of the chariot chooses which profile will be used. If he chooses the chariot, the profile has no leadership value. not 0, not "-", it has no leadership characteristic and so is immune.
Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.
wounds is a characteristic
as psychic shriek does wounds the necron player can nominate the attack hits the chariot, but it would still uses the riders LD
For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the rider’s profile.
or possibly LD 0 since the chariot has no LD
Shriek isn't a characteristic test. Vehicles have no LD (not LD 0, that's a different thing entirely).
So both options you've given are wrong using actual rules.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Actually, more Interesting Rule: When shooting at a Chariot unit, total up the number of successful hits that have been caused. - Shooting at Chariots
There is one large fault that everyone knows about Psychic Shriek: it does not have a Profile. The lack of a Profile and any other Rule required to work one out, it simply can not be Resolved as a Shooting attack. Given that it is part of a Rule-set that is Resolved like a Shooting attack, it is quite the large oversight to be ongoing for as long as it has been. As far as I am concerned, this is just another situation where it is painfully highlighted how poorly fitting into the Witchfire category this power is. We do not have permission to Allocate anything to begin with, for as the above indicates those are based on successful Hits... and this power has no To Hit dice to Roll!
So anything we discuss here will simply be 'How I would Play It' and nothing Rule as Written, unless you want to embrace all sorts of crazy.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 04:53:59
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
The "hit pool" you're referring to is to segregate hits of different types. the "hit(s)" from psychic shriek's rolling to hit step would be in a pool of it's own. But how many hits that is is impossible to determine because as a shooting attack it has no weapon profile, but that debate is covered in several other threads.
]Since psychic shriek must roll to hit (even though how to properly roll to hit for psychic shriek is not defined in the rulebook), that hit can be allocated to the vehicle profile, which has no leadership value.
So anything we discuss here will simply be 'How I would Play It' and nothing Rule as Written, unless you want to embrace all sorts of crazy.
True enough. Something I was inelegantly alluding to.
And even if we could allocate a hit, that doesn't necessarily get us to, as Bojazz puts it, choosing a profile. Would it matter which model it hit in a unit of Space Marines with Veteran Sergeant? We don't have rules for rolling against mixed chacteristics of a unit when it is not a CharacteristicTest.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 12:30:21
Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation. option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests. option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent, or find a 3rd option both of you like.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 16:28:15
Bojazz wrote: Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation.
option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests.
option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent.
Chariots can allocate hits.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Bojazz wrote: Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation.
option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests.
option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent.
Chariots can allocate hits.
for someone that claims there is no hit tied to the effect of psychic shriek that's kind of a pointless commment.
regardless wounds is a characteristic, and if hit by an effect that reduces wounds ( a characteristic modifier) then in the case of chariots the wounds apply to both the rider and chariot regardless of where the "hit" is allocated.
If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.
Take Saves & Remove Casualties The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.
taking wounds is a characterstic modifier, as that is the only way we have to change stats. Models only are removed as casualties from having their wounds characteristic reduced to 0, or when we are told they are removed as casualties from an effect.
psychic shriek causes wounds, wounds reduction is a characteristic modifier, so it will always affect the rider if the rider doesn't deny and there are wounds generated.
Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.
if psychic shriek does 4 wounds, then the chariot takes 4 wounds (no effect since chariots have no wounds value) and the rider takes 4 wounds at the same time as it applies to both.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 17:12:39
Rigeld - That post was in response to the post above about targeting units with mixed leaderships, not chariots. You are correct that chariots can indeed allocate hits, in which case it is not a mixed profile unit, it is just a single model with a single profile (of it's choice).
Blaktoof - Nobody is arguing that. Everybody agrees that if you can wound a chariot, you'll wound the rider. that hasn't been in question. We get it.
What IS in question is how to resolve psychic shriek. We have no way of determining HOW MANY WOUNDS Psychic Shriek deals against a target with no leadership value. That's what the posting has been about (besides yours) for the past 3/4 of the thread.
Bojazz wrote: Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation.
option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests.
option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.
Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent.
Chariots can allocate hits.
for someone that claims there is no hit tied to the effect of psychic shriek that's kind of a pointless commment.
regardless wounds is a characteristic, and if hit by an effect that reduces wounds ( a characteristic modifier) then in the case of chariots the wounds apply to both the rider and chariot regardless of where the "hit" is allocated.
If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.
Take Saves & Remove Casualties The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.
taking wounds is a characterstic modifier, as that is the only way we have to change stats. Models only are removed as casualties from having their wounds characteristic reduced to 0, or when we are told they are removed as casualties from an effect.
psychic shriek causes wounds, wounds reduction is a characteristic modifier, so it will always affect the rider if the rider doesn't deny and there are wounds generated.
Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.
if psychic shriek does 4 wounds, then the chariot takes 4 wounds (no effect since chariots have no wounds value) and the rider takes 4 wounds at the same time as it applies to both.
Taking wounds is not the same as reducing the wound characteristic and you are confusing the two. There is actually a significant difference. If a model has its wound characteristic reduced then USR like IWND will be unable to restore past what the wound characteristic has been reduced to.
There is nothing in the wording of psychic shriek to suggest that the wound characteristic itself is being reduced. Psychic shriek is merely just inflicting wounds. You don't have permission to modify the characteristic.
Spoiler:
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the
target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result.
Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.
You are incorrect, the only way to modify wounds is by modifying it.
it is a characterstic, taking a wound is modifying it thats why it states "when the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty"
not something like "when a model has taken as many wounds as its profile has listed remove it as a casualty"
the characteristic is modified everytime the model suffers a wound.
further you should reread IWND as it states it gets to roll for having less than its starting number of wounds, not current wounds.
At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule that has less than its starting number of Wounds or Hull Points, but has not been removed as a casualty or destroyed. On a roll of 5 +, that model regains a Wound, or Hull Point, lost earlier in the game.
also things like ID state that models suffering a wound with ID are reduced to 0 wounds and removed from play.
the only way to cause wounds it by modifying the wounds characteristic.
this is specifically called out in all areas where they discuss models suffering wounds, taking wounds, causing wounds and the wounds characteristic on the models profile being reduced to 0 which causes the model to be removed from play.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 17:26:02
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