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 FlingitNow wrote:


OK lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit. If you miss there is no hit to allocate and the unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds.

This statement is assumption on your part. The broken parts of the PS power have been hashed out in numerous threads. There is nothing supporting this statement any more than there are for the counter argument, thus rendering the rest of your argument moot.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
Psychic shriek is a witchfire power. Witchfires must roll to hit. Since it does not have a shooting profile, nobody knows HOW to roll to hit, so this must be decided with your opponent (most commonly, one dice is the decision).

This is all covered in a very lively debate elsewhere on YMDC, a simple search will find it.

The above debate is how to handle what happens after you've rolled to hit.

OK lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit. If you miss there is no hit to allocate and the unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds. That is the issue yoy have the hit (and any proceeding rolls to wound or armour pen) has nothing to do with the effect.

I roll 3d6 minus the leadership of the unit. Does the unit have a leadership value? I take that number and apply that many wounds to the chariot unit. Does the Chariot unit have a wounds characteristic?

If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS? 

So broken.

No immunity to Ld based effects because you are not given any. In most cases any Ld effect will simply be unresolvable. So we have 2 choices ignore the unresolvable effect or make up random numbers to fix. Those that roll to hit for PS are clearly in the second camp...

 FlingitNow wrote:

And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS? 

So broken.

No immunity to Ld based effects because you are not given any. In most cases any Ld effect will simply be unresolvable. So we have 2 choices ignore the unresolvable effect or make up random numbers to fix. Those that roll to hit for PS are clearly in the second camp...

The camp that follows the rules?

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.

Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."

 Mavlun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.

Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."

I underlined the thing you need to support with actual rules.

If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

I'm going to want a rules support for that. Because the psychic phase rules disagree they say resolve the power according to its entry the entry says 3d6-ld wounds it doesn't say if you hit or per hit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.

Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."

I underlined the thing you need to support with actual rules.

You want me to support why a missed To Hit roll is a Miss?

 FlingitNow wrote:

If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

I'm going to want a rules support for that. Because the psychic phase rules disagree they say resolve the power according to its entry the entry says 3d6-ld wounds it doesn't say if you hit or per hit.

You roll for the psychic test, and if it's successful and not denied, you reslove it according to its entry. Its entry says Witchfire. You look at witchfire, and it says, roll To Hit. Problem solved.

 Mavlun wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS? 

So broken.

No immunity to Ld based effects because you are not given any. In most cases any Ld effect will simply be unresolvable. So we have 2 choices ignore the unresolvable effect or make up random numbers to fix. Those that roll to hit for PS are clearly in the second camp...

The camp that follows the rules?

So the side that makes up rules is the side that is following the rules?

So you make up the 1 roll to hit. Thus when the hit resolved against the Chariot it immediately dies correct as we set the Chariots Ld &Wounds to 1 like we have done for rolls to hit. This is your interpretation correct?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS? 

So broken.

No immunity to Ld based effects because you are not given any. In most cases any Ld effect will simply be unresolvable. So we have 2 choices ignore the unresolvable effect or make up random numbers to fix. Those that roll to hit for PS are clearly in the second camp...

The camp that follows the rules?

So the side that makes up rules is the side that is following the rules?

So you make up the 1 roll to hit. Thus when the hit resolved against the Chariot it immediately dies correct as we set the Chariots Ld &Wounds to 1 like we have done for rolls to hit. This is your interpretation correct?

No, my interpretation is that it's a witchfire power, therefore it requires a To Hit roll. That's the rule, per RAW.

The fact that PS is a dumb power that still hasn't been fixed, either by giving it a shooting profile, or by making it a beam, or whatever, is an entirely different discussion, as has been mentioned a million times before. Your insulting comment was that people that roll To Hit for PS are making things up, which is (in a way) true, but still better than completely ignoring a black on white rule, which is what you're doing.

 Mavlun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.

Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."

I underlined the thing you need to support with actual rules.

You want me to support why a missed To Hit roll is a Miss?

No, I want you to support why a Miss means you cannot resolve the power (as the Psychic rules allow).

You roll for the psychic test, and if it's successful and not denied, you reslove it according to its entry. Its entry says Witchfire. You look at witchfire, and it says, roll To Hit. Problem solved.

How is that "Problem solved"? What in that says if you don't hit you don't resolve the power? Does that mean on psychic powers that make multiple shots if you roll 1 miss the entire power is canceled?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

No, my interpretation is that it's a witchfire power, therefore it requires a To Hit roll. That's the rule, per RAW. 

The fact that PS is a dumb power that still hasn't been fixed, either by giving it a shooting profile, or by making it a beam, or whatever, is an entirely different discussion, as has been mentioned a million times before. Your insulting comment was that people that roll To Hit for PSare making things up, which is (in a way) true, but still better than completely ignoring a black on white rule, which is what you're doing.

So how do you resolve the 3d6-ld wounds against the Chariot you HAVE as per the Psychic Shriek rules (just as you have to roll to hit). Given that you've stated when you have an unresolvable situation you make up numbers to resolve it. What numbers do you make up? If they are different to the 1 you made up for PS rolls to hit why?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

I'm sure you have a rules quote to support that assertion... as Shriek doesn't have a profile and all.

Page 198 of the BRB: "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power"
Page 27 of the BRB: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, etc."

I underlined the thing you need to support with actual rules.

You want me to support why a missed To Hit roll is a Miss?

No, I want you to support why a Miss means you cannot resolve the power (as the Psychic rules allow).

The psychic rules then continue on the next couple of pages to go into detail on the TYPES of psychic powers, including witchfire, which you're completely ignoring.

 FlingitNow wrote:

You roll for the psychic test, and if it's successful and not denied, you reslove it according to its entry. Its entry says Witchfire. You look at witchfire, and it says, roll To Hit. Problem solved.

How is that "Problem solved"? What in that says if you don't hit you don't resolve the power? Does that mean on psychic powers that make multiple shots if you roll 1 miss the entire power is canceled?

Because it's a shooting attack. While it doesn't have a profile, we do know that whenever you make a shooting attack with a weapon that -does- have a profile, any rolls that miss, have no effect. Anything past that point is HYWPI . Where we play, we acknowledge that there -should- be a roll to hit, since it's a witchfire, but without knowing how many dice, etc. we assume it hits, however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.

Because it's a shooting attack. While it doesn't have a profile, we do know that whenever you make a shooting attack with a weapon that -does- have a profile, any rolls that miss, have no effect. Anything past that point is HYWPI . Where we play, we acknowledge that there -should- be a roll to hit, since it's a witchfire, but without knowing how many dice, etc. we assume it hits, however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.

Sorry but what?

When a shooting attack fails to hit it doesn't roll to wound. That is all that doesn't happen along with of course any effect tied to a hit. Note how the 3d6-ld is not in any way shape or form linked to a hit.

Also note if you do hit with Psychic Shriek you must then roll to wound (or armour penetration) for each hit caused. What strength do you use for that?

So you then just add other weapon rules in when you feel like it? Neural Shredders don't work against vehicles because they say they don't. Note how PS has no such instructions.

So answer the questions. Given that the roll to hit is unresolvable and you approach that by making up the numbers to resolve it please answer the following;

1) What strength do you resolve the hit at?
2) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
3) What Leadership do you use for the Chariot?
4) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
5) What wounds do then use for the Chariot?
6) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?

If for any of the above questions you answer we do not resolve that effect then you concede that you don't roll to hit for PS as you can't choose which unresolvable effects you make up rules for and which you simply leave unresolved and move on for. That is just making entirely your own game up. So which is it?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Because it's a shooting attack. While it doesn't have a profile, we do know that whenever you make a shooting attack with a weapon that -does- have a profile, any rolls that miss, have no effect. Anything past that point is HYWPI . Where we play, we acknowledge that there -should- be a roll to hit, since it's a witchfire, but without knowing how many dice, etc. we assume it hits, however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.

Sorry but what?

When a shooting attack fails to hit it doesn't roll to wound. That is all that doesn't happen along with of course any effect tied to a hit. Note how the 3d6-ld is not in any way shape or form linked to a hit.

Also note if you do hit with Psychic Shriek you must then roll to wound (or armour penetration) for each hit caused. What strength do you use for that?

So you then just add other weapon rules in when you feel like it? Neural Shredders don't work against vehicles because they say they don't. Note how PS has no such instructions.

So answer the questions. Given that the roll to hit is unresolvable and you approach that by making up the numbers to resolve it please answer the following;

1) What strength do you resolve the hit at?
2) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
3) What Leadership do you use for the Chariot?
4) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?
5) What wounds do then use for the Chariot?
6) If not 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit?

If for any of the above questions you answer we do not resolve that effect then you concede that you don't roll to hit for PS as you can't choose which unresolvable effects you make up rules for and which you simply leave unresolved and move on for. That is just making entirely your own game up. So which is it?

I already said, where we play,we don't roll to hit, but assume it automatically hits. It has to, since it's a witchfire power. Therefore, the hit can be allocated by the owning player to the vehicle. Since the vehicle has no leadership value, nothing happens.

Ok I get what you're saying now. So the questions change:

1)Given that the roll to hit is unresolvable and you approach that by making up the numbers to give answer. How many times does PS hit?
2) What strength do you resolve the hit at? 
3) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit? 
4) What Leadership do you use for the Chariot? 
5) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit? 
6) What wounds do then use for the Chariot? 
7) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit? 

 FlingitNow wrote:
Ok I get what you're saying now. So the questions change:

1)Given that the roll to hit is unresolvable and you approach that by making up the numbers to give answer. How many times does PS hit?
2) What strength do you resolve the hit at? 
3) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit? 
4) What Leadership do you use for the Chariot? 
5) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit? 
6) What wounds do then use for the Chariot? 
7) If not the same as answer 1 why is that different from the unresolvable roll to hit? 

1. I am seriously worried about your reading comprehension. We don't make up numbers, since we assume it hits, therefore applying the effect written in the entry.
2. Psychic shriek doesn't have a S and AP profile, just special rules, so you apply the special rules.
4. It has no leadership value, therefore Psychic Shriek has no effect.
6. Since the CCB's profile is used, and it is a vehicle, no wounds are taken.

Questions 3, 5 and 7 are just regurgitations. I think I was clear enough a few posts ago, and I'm pretty sure it's clear to readers. The difference between you and I is that you're pretending like PS is not a WITCHFIRE power, and therefore, use it as a malediction, which is completely incorrect, and I acknowledge that it's an automatic hit. The issue will only ever be resolved when the power gets an FAQ (if ever).

Until then, your invisibility spamming death stars will have to rely on their other multitude of weapons to bring down CCBs as far as I am concerned.

FWIW no attack can automatically hit if it is required to roll to hit, of course if a specific rule specifically states otherwise then its otherwise but general rule is..

Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses.

so playing it as an automatic hit although acceptable in some groups is completely wrong with the RAW.

 Mavlun wrote:
however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.

Do we know that? Abyssal Staff specifically says it doesn't. Neural Shredder doesn't work that way anymore, but its new rules specifically say it doesn't. It's a statement that's conspicuously absent in PS.

Mavlun - no, you made an assumptive leap there.

We know, because the rules state as such, that a successful to-hit is needed before you can roll to-wound.

THat is it. You cannot say "a miss has no effect"

There is no to-wound roll with PS, so a miss has no effect. You instead, as per the rules for psychic powers, resolve the power according to its entry.

1. I am seriously worried about your reading comprehension. We don't make up numbers, since we assume it hits, therefore applying the effect written in the entry. 
2. Psychic shriek doesn't have a S and AP profile, just special rules, so you apply the special rules. 
4. It has no leadership value, therefore Psychic Shriek has no effect. 
6. Since the CCB's profile is used, and it is a vehicle, no wounds are taken. 

Questions 3, 5 and 7 are just regurgitations. I think I was clear enough a few posts ago, and I'm pretty sure it's clear to readers. The difference between you and I is that you're pretending like PS is not a WITCHFIRE power, and therefore, use it as a malediction, which is completely incorrect, and I acknowledge that it's an automatic hit. The issue will only ever be resolved when the power gets an FAQ (if ever). 

Until then, your invisibility spamming death stars will have to rely on their other multitude of weapons to bring down CCBs as far as I am concerned.
 

Why won't you answer the question. In your interpretation how many times does Psychic shriek automatically hit?

You then claim as there is no profile that you don't do the to wound process. Why are you completely changing your approach from what you did when you encountered the same issue with the to hit process?

You are doing the same again and again for questions 4 & 6 which proves that your approach to unresolvable events due to lack of applicable profile is to ignore the event. Therefore why are you not doing this for the to hit process? This proves your interpretation is entirely inconsistent with itself and thus is hypocritical. Therefore using your method to deal with the to wound process and the other processes we see that PS generates no hits and thus the Chariot can not assign PS to anything.

 Mavlun wrote:
The psychic rules then continue on the next couple of pages to go into detail on the TYPES of psychic powers, including witchfire, which you're completely ignoring.

I'm actually ignoring nothing, but thanks for assuming that I don't debate honestly.

Because it's a shooting attack. While it doesn't have a profile, we do know that whenever you make a shooting attack with a weapon that -does- have a profile, any rolls that miss, have no effect. Anything past that point is HYWPI . Where we play, we acknowledge that there -should- be a roll to hit, since it's a witchfire, but without knowing how many dice, etc. we assume it hits, however, when shooting at a CCB, it has no effect, as it's placed on the profile with no Ld, and as we know from other weapons such as the Abyssal Staff or the Neural Shredder, that also wound based on the target's Ld, they don't affect vehicles.

So you're arguing HYWPI. That's cool, but not what you initially stated.

My problem with the argument about not rolling is that it is entirely HIWPI as well even though few agree that it is. Unless you can back up not following a requirement just because you don't know how with a rule from the book it is just as reasonable to request that you not use those powers.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/616002.page#7232512

Same old same old.
Witchfire must roll To Hit: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless (...) it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically."

Psychic Shriek cannot hit automatically. Or prove it is a template.

How many Dice to check if it misses? No rules support.
But my old post shows my position:

The "witchfire power must roll To Hit" and we know that you do such a thing using the "roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are ..." RaW

Now either as you both agree we simply ignore the first part for some tests (and do not refer to the To Hit RaW), or we do take that Rule and, as we have no profile, must use the basic rule ("Most models only get") and not the reference to other detailed weapons ("however, some weapons").

Pretty much this:

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

Gravmyr wrote:
My problem with the argument about not rolling is that it is entirely HIWPI as well even though few agree that it is. Unless you can back up not following a requirement just because you don't know how with a rule from the book it is just as reasonable to request that you not use those powers.

It is just as much HYPWI to not roll to hit as to not do the following actions that likewise are unresolvable to lack of relevant profile:

1) Apply -1T modifier from Enfeeble on a vehicle.
2) Roll to wound with PS after you've hit.
3) Roll 3d6-ld for a vehicle after manifesting PS on it.
4) Applying the wounds to a vehicle from above (or indeed any other effect that generates wounds and doesn't specify that it has jo effect on Vehicles).

So if we are being consistent we HAVE to treat all these situations the same. So if you're making up a profile to roll to hit you have to also to the same to roll to wound/armour pen for that hit and make up a profile to resolve Enfeeble and PS against vehicles. So which is it? Do you believe any of the 4 situations above are simply ignored because they can't be resolved? If you believe that then you believe no roll to hit is made for PS.

In this specific situation it gives you 2 possible ways to resolve do the 3d6-ld against the Chariot unit as a whole as per the PS entry or resolve against the Chariot and instantly remove it...

We know witchfires roll to hit.

We know that if you roll to hit and miss the attack is discarded (there is litterally no case in the rules where a miss on a to hit roll still counts as a hit).

We know that chariots share both the rider and vehicles profile (so it does have a leadership score).

We can resolve psychic shriek with no issues.

Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.

The spell only deals wounds. This means whether you allocate the hit to the barge or the lord, wounds are generated.

Since the vehicle has no wounds you are left with only 2 options:

1. The rider has to take the saves, since his portion of the characteristic chart is the only one with wounds.

2. The chariot suffer glancing hits for each wound inflicted (making up rules here).

3. The wounds hit the vehicle and disapear (making up rules here).


We are only left with 1 as somthing we can do since the other 2 options are completely out of the scope of the rules set.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Chariots are told to allocate hits, so the single hit can be allocated to either the vehicle or rider. The vehicle is considered to have its rider's leadership of 10 so we can resolve the 3d6-10 as per psychic shriek.

3. The wounds hit the vehicle and disapear (making up rules here).

Not really. The Vehicle has no Leadership, only the Rider.

3. Is not making up rules. It is simply un-resolvable because the owner decided the Shooting attack Hits the Vehicle (Which he's allowed to do).

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

Quick clarification, if you missed you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the roll to wound step. Which I will gladly do, I will not roll to wound with my str N/A attack.

xera32 wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:
If you missed, you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the rest of the text, aka the effect of the psychic power.

Quick clarification, if you missed you missed the shooting attack, and you don't proceed with the roll to wound step. Which I will gladly do, I will not roll to wound with my str N/A attack.

No, if you missed, you simply have no Hit.

With no Hit, you have no To Wound step. If a Power does not Hit, why do you resolve it?