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Bojazz wrote:


Blaktoof - Nobody is arguing that. Everybody agrees that if you can wound a chariot, you'll wound the rider. that hasn't been in question. We get it.

No. The general consensus in this thread is that the chariot player assigns wounds to the chariot profile and those wounds are effectively nullified when applied against a vehicle.

the general consensus of this thread so far is incorrect.

additionally the chariot own does not allocate wounds, they allocate hits.

allocating the hit to the chariot still leaves the model having a LD value for the unit, which can be affected by the 3d6-ld.

then the wounds caused are applied to both the chariot and rider as per the RAW for chariots and characteristic modifiers.

blaktoof wrote:
You are incorrect, the only way to modify wounds is by modifying it.

it is a characterstic, taking a wound is modifying it thats why it states "when the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty"

not something like "when a model has taken as many wounds as its profile has listed remove it as a casualty"

the characteristic is modified everytime the model suffers a wound.

further you should reread IWND as it states it gets to roll for having less than its starting number of wounds, not current wounds.

At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule that has less than its starting number of Wounds or Hull Points, but has not been removed as a casualty or destroyed. On a roll of 5 +, that model regains a Wound, or Hull Point, lost earlier in the game.

also things like ID state that models suffering a wound with ID are reduced to 0 wounds and removed from play.

the only way to cause wounds it by modifying the wounds characteristic.

this is specifically called out in all areas where they discuss models suffering wounds, taking wounds, causing wounds and the wounds characteristic on the models profile being reduced to 0 which causes the model to be removed from play.

A characteristic modifier effectively changes the starting number for a characteristic while the modifier is in effect. The normal inflicting of wounds does not reduce the starting number.

Here's my take, and I'm sure I'll be shot down for it.

The Wounds characteristic denotes how many wounds a model can receive before being removed as a casualty. When a model receives an unsaved Wound, the characteristic does not actually change. A 3 Wound model would merely become a 3 Wound model that has received X number of Wounds. After taking one Wound, it would still be a 3 Wound model, but it could only take 2 more before being removed as a casualty.

Saldiven wrote:
Here's my take, and I'm sure I'll be shot down for it.

The Wounds characteristic denotes how many wounds a model can receive before being removed as a casualty. When a model receives an unsaved Wound, the characteristic does not actually change. A 3 Wound model would merely become a 3 Wound model that has received X number of Wounds. After taking one Wound, it would still be a 3 Wound model, but it could only take 2 more before being removed as a casualty.

This is correct.

blaktoof wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
Hits aren't allocated to models, wounds are. There are two rules which are similar to that situation, but neither are invoked in that situation.
option 1 - Use the target unit's highest leadership value as for leadership tests.
option 2 - Use the target's most common leadership value as for rolling to wound vs mixed toughness during shooting.

Neither of these rules pertain to psychic shriek though, so you'd just have to decide which one to use with your opponent.

Chariots can allocate hits.

for someone that claims there is no hit tied to the effect of psychic shriek that's kind of a pointless commment.

Considering the context it isn't. It's cute of you to ignore that, however.

regardless wounds is a characteristic, and if hit by an effect that reduces wounds ( a characteristic modifier) then in the case of chariots the wounds apply to both the rider and chariot regardless of where the "hit" is allocated.

Great! How many wounds?

taking wounds is a characterstic modifier, as that is the only way we have to change stats.

Well, no - we have the rule you quoted telling us how to.

if psychic shriek does 4 wounds, then the chariot takes 4 wounds (no effect since chariots have no wounds value) and the rider takes 4 wounds at the same time as it applies to both.

And how many wounds does Shriek generate against the chariot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:
Here's my take, and I'm sure I'll be shot down for it.

The Wounds characteristic denotes how many wounds a model can receive before being removed as a casualty. When a model receives an unsaved Wound, the characteristic does not actually change. A 3 Wound model would merely become a 3 Wound model that has received X number of Wounds. After taking one Wound, it would still be a 3 Wound model, but it could only take 2 more before being removed as a casualty.

The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1.

Incorrect. You're told to reduce a model's Wounds, not mark it against the model or anything like that.

col_impact wrote:

Bojazz wrote:


Blaktoof - Nobody is arguing that. Everybody agrees that if you can wound a chariot, you'll wound the rider. that hasn't been in question. We get it.

No. The general consensus in this thread is that the chariot player assigns wounds to the chariot profile and those wounds are effectively nullified when applied against a vehicle.

How does psychic shriek assign wounds to the chariot profile? It doesn't have a way of determining how many wounds it can inflict. It literally does not matter what "wounding" a chariot profile does or does not do, because it will NEVER get to that point.

Bojazz wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Bojazz wrote:


Blaktoof - Nobody is arguing that. Everybody agrees that if you can wound a chariot, you'll wound the rider. that hasn't been in question. We get it.

No. The general consensus in this thread is that the chariot player assigns wounds to the chariot profile and those wounds are effectively nullified when applied against a vehicle.

How does psychic shriek assign wounds to the chariot profile? It doesn't have a way of determining how many wounds it can inflict. It literally does not matter what "wounding" a chariot profile does or does not do, because it will NEVER get to that point.

I guess we agree that there are multiple points of failure in blaktoof's argument.

Agreed with Regld2,
The Wound Characteristic clearly indicates that the Model is removed as a Casualty when the value is changed from 1 to 0, not when it has accumulated a number of Wounds equal to it's characteristic.

JinxDragon wrote:
Agreed with Regld2,
The Wound Characteristic clearly indicates that the Model is removed as a Casualty when the value is changed from 1 to 0, not when it has accumulated a number of Wounds equal to it's characteristic.

Sure, but Wounds starting value hasn't changed. Characteristic modifiers change the starting value for the duration of the effect.

If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.

a CCB is a unit made up of 1 model with 2 profiles.

The unit, despite the two profiles has 1 leadership value.

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.

target unit, not target model, not target profile

Does the target unit have a LD on its profile? yes, then you can roll to generate wounds.

blaktoof wrote:

If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.

a CCB is a unit made up of 1 model with 2 profiles.

The unit, despite the two profiles has 1 leadership value.

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.

target unit, not target model, not target profile

Does the target unit have a LD on its profile? yes, then you can roll to generate wounds.

The rule you quoted to use the higher leadership is for leadership tests. Psychic shriek is not a leadership test, so that rule does not apply here. This has all been stated before.

Secondly the Chariot only uses one profile at a time when being shot at, as chosen by the controller of the chariot, not the firer. If the controller chooses the hit to be resolved against the chariot profile, then at that time it is a unit that consists of one model with one profile, with no leadership value.

Col_impact,
Of course the 'starting' value is going to remain the same, for the same reason as a Rule stating to use the 'unmodified value' will always use the same number found on the profile regardless of which actions during the cause of the game have changed that Value. The problem was with the concept that Wounds are just another value which are then applied to the Model till it reaches the same value as the "Starting Wounds" because that has no Rule Support. The Rules have always required that we Reduce the Models Wounds, with no 'end of duration' listed to indicate when the Value is increased if that really is your concern, so why are we discussing something other then reducing Wounds?

So your saying the chariot unit does not have a LD value?

Psychic shriek is a hit that creates wounds to a target unit based on the targets LD.

If you were targeting a unit that had 9 models with ld 8 and 1 model with ld 9, ie 2 different profiles in 1 unit- you would hit and then roll 3d6-9 then the wounds are allocated.

if you hit a unit that has a profile with no LD and a profile with an LD of 10 you would generate 3d6-10 wounds to go to the target unit.

It doesn't create a hit on a model that does 3d6-ld wounds, it creates a hit on the target unit that does 3d6-targets LD value. Otherwise the way you are saying it works is it would generate 1 hit that does 3d6-ld wounds and could at most remove 1 model.

The target has a LD value, the profile of the rider. You use that to generate the wounds, then they can be applied to the target unit, as its a characteristic modifier per the RAW they apply to both the rider and chariot.

If you bothered reading the previous posts you'd see we talked about that as well. Since Psychic Shriek is not a leadership test, there is NO rule for how to handle targets with multiple leadership values. So you would have to decide with your opponent whether to use the highest leadership value like a leadership test, or the most common leadership value like rolling to wound vs units with multiple toughness.

And again, the chariot only uses ONE profile at a time, as chosen by the controller. It does not still have its alternate profile for the convenience of the shooter, it is JUST a vehicle with no leadership value. You have no permission to use the rider's profile as if it were another model in the same unit.

blaktoof wrote:

If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.

Objection, relevance. The quoted rule has to do with leadership tests and not Psychic powers. Perhaps you could stay on topic?

a CCB is a unit made up of 1 model with 2 profiles.

The unit, despite the two profiles has 1 leadership value.

Correct. And Psychic Shriek, as a witchfire, hits a unit.
Chariots have permission to allocate the hit to whatever profile they wish.
Cite permission to use the non-vehicle profile when the hit is allocated to the Chariot.

Does the target unit have a LD on its profile? yes, then you can roll to generate wounds.

Objection, assumption without evidence.
Please, cite a rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.

Objection, relevance. The quoted rule has to do with leadership tests and not Psychic powers. Perhaps you could stay on topic?

a CCB is a unit made up of 1 model with 2 profiles.

The unit, despite the two profiles has 1 leadership value.

Correct. And Psychic Shriek, as a witchfire, hits a unit.
Chariots have permission to allocate the hit to whatever profile they wish.
Cite permission to use the non-vehicle profile when the hit is allocated to the Chariot.

Does the target unit have a LD on its profile? yes, then you can roll to generate wounds.

Objection, assumption without evidence.
Please, cite a rule.

So your saying the chariot unit does not have a LD value?

Psychic shriek is a hit that creates wounds to a target unit based on the targets LD.

If you were targeting a unit that had 9 models with ld 8 and 1 model with ld 9, ie 2 different profiles in 1 unit- you would hit and then roll 3d6-9 then the wounds are allocated.

if you hit a unit that has a profile with no LD and a profile with an LD of 10 you would generate 3d6-10 wounds to go to the target unit.

It doesn't create a hit on a model that does 3d6-ld wounds, it creates a hit on the target unit that does 3d6-targets LD value. Otherwise the way you are saying it works is it would generate 1 hit that does 3d6-ld wounds and could at most remove 1 model.

The target has a LD value, the profile of the rider. You use that to generate the wounds, then they can be applied to the target unit, as its a characteristic modifier per the RAW they apply to both the rider and chariot.

blaktoof wrote:
So your saying the chariot unit does not have a LD value?

No. I'm saying that the profile the hit is allocated to does not have a profile.

Psychic shriek is a hit that creates wounds to a target unit based on the targets LD.

And the target that you hit does not have a Leadership value.

If you were targeting a unit that had 9 models with ld 8 and 1 model with ld 9, ie 2 different profiles in 1 unit- you would hit and then roll 3d6-9 then the wounds are allocated.

Citation required - where is the rule supporting this assertion?

if you hit a unit that has a profile with no LD and a profile with an LD of 10 you would generate 3d6-10 wounds to go to the target unit.

Please back this up with some rules support. I know I have. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over.

It doesn't create a hit on a model that does 3d6-ld wounds, it creates a hit on the target unit that does 3d6-targets LD value. Otherwise the way you are saying it works is it would generate 1 hit that does 3d6-ld wounds and could at most remove 1 model.

That's incorrect and not what I'm saying at all. Generally, hits aren't allocated so hitting the target (with PS) just creates a wound pool. Specifically, the Chariot rules allow the hit to be allocated to a specific profile. You're attempting (indeed, asserting) that you are allowed to use the other profile. You've utterly failed to find a single rule to back up this assertion.

The target has a LD value, the profile of the rider. You use that to generate the wounds, then they can be applied to the target unit, as its a characteristic modifier per the RAW they apply to both the rider and chariot.

It's not a characteristic modifier - as proven. Copy/pasting your posts is both rude and detrimental to the discussion. Please update your post with relevant rules citations after you've read the post that prove you wrong.

suffering wounds is a characteristic modifier as has been quoted by the rules, quote where it isn't or concede.

allocating the psychic shriek "hit" to the chariot still causes the unit to suffer 3d6-ld of the unit, not the model/profile.

does the unit have a LD value?

the "hit" to the chariot causes the UNIT to suffer wounds equal to the 3D6 minus the "TARGET"'s Leadership. The TARGET does not have a leadership value. the TARGET is the chariot. a vehicle.

Does the unit have a leadership value for the purposes of resolving this hit? No. It consists of a single model using a profile with no leadership value.

Chariots can only allocate hits. Psychic shriek doesn't generate hits so that rule CAN NOT be used. Psychic Shriek effects the rider no matter what RaW. It really is that simple.

Psychic shriek is a witchfire power. Witchfires must roll to hit. Since it does not have a shooting profile, nobody knows HOW to roll to hit, so this must be decided with your opponent (most commonly, one dice is the decision).

This is all covered in a very lively debate elsewhere on YMDC, a simple search will find it.

The above debate is how to handle what happens after you've rolled to hit.

blaktoof wrote:
suffering wounds is a characteristic modifier as has been quoted by the rules, quote where it isn't or concede.

The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1.

That's not telling you to apply a modifier, that gives you instructions.

allocating the psychic shriek "hit" to the chariot still causes the unit to suffer 3d6-ld of the unit, not the model/profile.

And you have permission to use a profile other than what the rules require?

does the unit have a LD value?

Not when the hit is allocated to the chariot.

blaktoof wrote:

The target has a LD value, the profile of the rider. You use that to generate the wounds

Even if everything else you said is true, RAW doesn't indicate this is the case.

If you say use the highest, which is higher 10 or undefined ( potentially infinite)? The answer itself is undefined. So you can't use that as the deciding factor of which value to use. The only way to say use 10 is to go with a rule that says where no other values exist, use that which does. Clearly that is not a rule that exists within 40k. Really, from rolling to hit to complete resolution, PS is broken and must be decided locally how it's to be played.

I will state that we've gone with resolving it against the rider's leadership in my area, in large part because we don't think Chariots were meant to be immune to PS. But that truly is HIWPI.

blaktoof wrote:
does the unit have a LD value?

No, because when the owning player chooses which profile is used, the target unit effectively does not have a leadership value.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Chariots can only allocate hits. Psychic shriek doesn't generate hits so that rule CAN NOT be used. Psychic Shriek effects the rider no matter what RaW. It really is that simple.

It's a witchfire power, therefore you have to roll to hit, therefore it's a hit.

I think Angelic hit the nail on the head there.Psychic Shriek is one of the most poorly worded parts of the game. So much confusion arises from it's improper wording that causes it to break the game whenever it is used. Any time anyone wants to use the power it must be a HIWPI scenario.

Bojazz wrote:
Psychic shriek is a witchfire power. Witchfires must roll to hit. Since it does not have a shooting profile, nobody knows HOW to roll to hit, so this must be decided with your opponent (most commonly, one dice is the decision).

This is all covered in a very lively debate elsewhere on YMDC, a simple search will find it.

The above debate is how to handle what happens after you've rolled to hit.

OK lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit. If you miss there is no hit to allocate and the unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds. That is the issue yoy have the hit (and any proceeding rolls to wound or armour pen) has nothing to do with the effect.

I roll 3d6 minus the leadership of the unit. Does the unit have a leadership value? I take that number and apply that many wounds to the chariot unit. Does the Chariot unit have a wounds characteristic?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
Psychic shriek is a witchfire power. Witchfires must roll to hit. Since it does not have a shooting profile, nobody knows HOW to roll to hit, so this must be decided with your opponent (most commonly, one dice is the decision).

This is all covered in a very lively debate elsewhere on YMDC, a simple search will find it.

The above debate is how to handle what happens after you've rolled to hit.

OK lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit. If you miss there is no hit to allocate and the unit still takes 3d6-LD wounds. That is the issue yoy have the hit (and any proceeding rolls to wound or armour pen) has nothing to do with the effect.

I roll 3d6 minus the leadership of the unit. Does the unit have a leadership value? I take that number and apply that many wounds to the chariot unit. Does the Chariot unit have a wounds characteristic?

And that's one of the stronger arguments we had to playing it the way we do. Additionally, the Vehicle rules state that they never take Leadership Tests. Does this, or not having a Ld value, translate to immunity to Leadership based effects like PS?

So broken.

I just love the hypocrisy of approach here. Well you have to roll to hit, it is unresolvable so we make up numbers to make it work. You have to roll 3d6-ld it is unresolvable so we ignore it and proceed with what is resolvable. You can't have it both ways if you want the roll to hit to be made then you have to resolve the effects agaibat the chariot using the no information supplied = 0 stat precedent or your lets set it to 1 precedent and the Chariot is immediately removed as you do 3d6-0 or 3d6-1 wounds check that the chariot doesn't have a wounds characteristic so set to 0 or 1 it dies.

FlingItNow - So what would you say happens in the case that you roll to hit and you DO score a hit?