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JinxDragon wrote:
Roll To Hit is then name of the Step and a Rule within the Step....
All one has to is obey the instructions within that Rule and they have "Roll-ed To Hit"

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. The player has to pick up a die and roll it in that step.

Hey all!

Sorry if this has been stated already, as I haven't gone back through all nine pages of text, But how we play it is:

Roll to cast Psychic Shriek.

If the power's successful.

Roll to Deny the Witch.

If the power isn't stopped.

Roll to hit using the casters BS. (Witchfire powers need a to hit roll)

If the roll to hit is successful, then roll 3D6 and compare to the targets Ld value to determine the number of wounds caused.

Resolve wounds as per shooting attack.

Move on to the next power.

As the rules state that successful hits are allocated by the owning player of the chariot, then the only hit would be allocated to the chariot and cause no effect. As chariots are vehicles.

If the owning player however chose to allocate the hit to the rider then the power would be resolved as normal. (I've never seen this happen, but who knows maybe one day)

Anyway, just how we play it.

Good luck with the rest of the discussion.

bigbaboonass wrote:
Hey all!

Sorry if this has been stated already, as I haven't gone back through all nine pages of text, But how we play it is:

Roll to cast Psychic Shriek.

If the power's successful.

Roll to Deny the Witch.

If the power isn't stopped.

Roll to hit using the casters BS. (Witchfire powers need a to hit roll)

If the roll to hit is successful, then roll 3D6 and compare to the targets Ld value to determine the number of wounds caused.

Resolve wounds as per shooting attack.

Move on to the next power.

As the rules state that successful hits are allocated by the owning player of the chariot, then the only hit would be allocated to the chariot and cause no effect. As chariots are vehicles.

If the owning player however chose to allocate the hit to the rider then the power would be resolved as normal. (I've never seen this happen, but who knows maybe one day)

Anyway, just how we play it.

Good luck with the rest of the discussion.

Yup this is exactly the approach to take and more or less the one I am advocating.

col_impact. Let's step away from rolling to hit with psychic shriek for a moment.

There are times when the rules call on us to perform an action that for some reason or another we cannot perform. When this happens, do you:

a) ignore the action as it cannot be resolved
b) make up numbers to fit what needs to be done
or c) something else entirely?

col_impact wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Roll To Hit is then name of the Step and a Rule within the Step....
All one has to is obey the instructions within that Rule and they have "Roll-ed To Hit"

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. The player has to pick up a die and roll it in that step.

Yes, and you roll to hit by following step four, which you do by rolling a d6 for all shots. As ps lacks a profile it has no shots, and you have completed step four. Step five is completed as you have no succesful hits, so that's done.

This has all been explained to you four or more times now, yet you still seem incapable of addressing a single point.

Please explain, in detail, why you believe no wounds can be caused without a to wound roll.

Please explain, in detail, why you refuse to follow the rules, and resolve the psychic power according to its entry.

Explain both, or concede.. Or ideally, accept this fact, Mark your posts as hywpi, and move on.

Oh, and stop with the appeal to Authority gak fallacy. No one cares how Bao, nova do it. It is entirely out with the tenets of this forum.

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact. Let's step away from rolling to hit with psychic shriek for a moment.

There are times when the rules call on us to perform an action that for some reason or another we cannot perform. When this happens, do you:

a) ignore the action as it cannot be resolved
b) make up numbers to fit what needs to be done
or c) something else entirely?

This cannot be answered in general. Ask a specific question about a specific scenario and I will answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Roll To Hit is then name of the Step and a Rule within the Step....
All one has to is obey the instructions within that Rule and they have "Roll-ed To Hit"

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. The player has to pick up a die and roll it in that step.

Yes, and you roll to hit by following step four, which you do by rolling a d6 for all shots. As ps lacks a profile it has no shots, and you have completed step four. Step five is completed as you have no succesful hits, so that's done.

This has all been explained to you four or more times now, yet you still seem incapable of addressing a single point.

Please explain, in detail, why you believe no wounds can be caused without a to wound roll.

Please explain, in detail, why you refuse to follow the rules, and resolve the psychic power according to its entry.

Explain both, or concede.. Or ideally, accept this fact, Mark your posts as hywpi, and move on.

Oh, and stop with the appeal to Authority gak fallacy. No one cares how Bao, nova do it. It is entirely out with the tenets of this forum.

If Psychic Shriek lacks a profile it is defaulted to one shot.

Zero shot shooting attacks do not exist. It's a fiction you are creating to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI by inventing concepts that do not exist. If you think otherwise, prove that zero shot shooting attacks exist. Go find a weapon profile that says Assault 0.

I have no need to, as I have proven that, for ps with no profile, it cannot have any shots. That's tHe rules, just one more you ignore eh? So I have complied with step four - I have no shots, I roll a d6 for each of my shots. I move on, as entitled tO, and resolve the power according to its entry.

Answer the questions about why you refuse to follow the psychic rules and resolve the power according to its entry. Explain why you insist wounds cannot happen without a to wound roll

Your concession is accepted. Mark your posts HYWPI as per the tenets of this forum, and desist from presenting your arguments as raw. They have been proven not to be. Or, for once, you could address the glaring whole - cloth made up nature of your argument, Nd present a single supporting rule

I won't hold my breath.

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact. Let's step away from rolling to hit with psychic shriek for a moment.

There are times when the rules call on us to perform an action that for some reason or another we cannot perform. When this happens, do you:

a) ignore the action as it cannot be resolved
b) make up numbers to fit what needs to be done
or c) something else entirely?

This cannot be answered in general. Ask a specific question about a specific scenario and I will answer.

Why can it not be answered in general?

nosferatu, what say you? Ignore the rule, make something up, or other? What about you Jinx?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have no need to, as I have proven that, for ps with no profile, it cannot have any shots. That's tHe rules, just one more you ignore eh? So I have complied with step four - I have no shots, I roll a d6 for each of my shots. I move on, as entitled tO, and resolve the power according to its entry.

Answer the questions about why you refuse to follow the psychic rules and resolve the power according to its entry. Explain why you insist wounds cannot happen without a to wound roll

Your concession is accepted. Mark your posts HYWPI as per the tenets of this forum, and desist from presenting your arguments as raw. They have been proven not to be. Or, for once, you could address the glaring whole - cloth made up nature of your argument, Nd present a single supporting rule

I won't hold my breath.

Shooting attacks with no profile have one shot. Zero shot shooting attacks are not an option because they do not exist and are moreover nonsensical. Zero shot shooting attacks are a fiction you are making up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact. Let's step away from rolling to hit with psychic shriek for a moment.

There are times when the rules call on us to perform an action that for some reason or another we cannot perform. When this happens, do you:

a) ignore the action as it cannot be resolved
b) make up numbers to fit what needs to be done
or c) something else entirely?

This cannot be answered in general. Ask a specific question about a specific scenario and I will answer.

Why can it not be answered in general?

nosferatu, what say you? Ignore the rule, make something up, or other? What about you Jinx?

Everything depends on context.

Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement. 

Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution. 

So how do you resolve the required step of applying -1T to the vehicle?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Why can it not be answered in general? 

nosferatu, what say you? Ignore the rule, make something up, or other? What about you Jinx?

The only RaW answer is to leave the unresolvable situation unresolved. Any actions that depend on the resolution of that action are likewise left and we carry on with what can be resolved.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement. 

Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution. 

So how do you resolve the required step of applying -1T to the vehicle?

There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Why can it not be answered in general?

nosferatu, what say you? Ignore the rule, make something up, or other? What about you Jinx?

The only RaW answer is to leave the unresolvable situation unresolved. Any actions that depend on the resolution of that action are likewise left and we carry on with what can be resolved.

This is a Recap of your argument FlingItNow


This is a ridiculous line of argumentation. You are basically admitting Psychic Shriek is broken beyond repair and then leveraging that brokenness to allow you to skip required steps and have it work magically.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement. 

Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution. 

So how do you resolve the required step of applying -1T to the vehicle?

There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer.

Why do you not assign a number to be the Toughness?

Seems easy to answer:
C.

If I don't roll any dice during this step, how many dice have I rolled?
If that number is equal to the number of shots, have I followed the instructions?

Just as legal as rolling 0 Dice during the To Wound portion whenever we have 0 Hits.

There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer. 

Why are there 2 answers?

Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Witchfire powers require you to roll to hit. Rolling zero dice does not satisfy this requirement. 

Casting enfeeble on a vehicle does not end the game. It is perfectly legal to do so. There is nothing broken in its resolution. 

So how do you resolve the required step of applying -1T to the vehicle?

There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer.

Why do you not assign a number to be the Toughness?

That's the silly insta-kill option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

There are two possible answers. Either the vehicle is not affected since it does not have a Toughness to modify or the vehicle is insta-killed. I pick the non-silly answer. 

Why are there 2 answers?

Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

Witchfire requires a roll to hit.

And Enfeeble requires a -1T modifier be applied. So why are you treating them differently. Let me guess you still can't answer that question?

JinxDragon wrote:
Seems easy to answer:
C.

If I don't roll any dice during this step, how many dice have I rolled?
If that number is equal to the number of shots, have I followed the instructions?

Just as legal as rolling 0 Dice during the To Wound portion whenever we have 0 Hits.

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
And Enfeeble requires a -1T modifier be applied. So why are you treating them differently. Let me guess you still can't answer that question?

What question?

Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.

Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...

See what I did there?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.

So both options are valid for PS too then?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.

Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...

See what I did there?

Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.

So both options are valid for PS too then?

Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.

The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.

Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...

See what I did there?

Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.

And how do you know what you need to roll To Wound? In general, of course.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.

Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...

See what I did there?

Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.

And how do you know what you need to roll To Wound? In general, of course.

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.

Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...

See what I did there?

Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.

And how do you know what you need to roll To Wound? In general, of course.

Spoiler:

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

And what is the Strength of Psychic Shriek?

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.

Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...

See what I did there?

Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.

And how do you know what you need to roll To Wound? In general, of course.

Spoiler:

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the
target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing
weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

And what is the Strength of Psychic Shriek?

GW does not provide you with that info. The rules are broken. You are missing a critical profile. You cannot resolve PS from a pure RAW standpoint. We are by necessity in house rule land. Since it's fairly obvious what the RAI would be, following BAO, NOVA, ETC is the way to go from there.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.

Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...

See what I did there?

Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.

Witchfires that shoot require a To Hit roll for every shot they make.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.

So both options are valid for PS too then?

Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.

The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.

So your answer to my question was a lie. So why can't you truthfully answer the question? What is preventing you from honestly answering the question?

The reason most people play the RaW is because it is absolutely clear that it is also the RaI. Given that you admitted to lying in your response to an honest simple question your claims of RaI ring very hollow.

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witchfire powers must roll to hit. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI.

Shooting attacks must roll to wound. A roll has not been made in the case of 0 dice rolled. It is nonsensical to roll zero dice. This is a fiction you have made up to bend the rules. You are doing HYWPI...

See what I did there?

Shooting attacks that hit require a To Wound Roll for every hit.

Witchfires that shoot require a To Hit roll for every shot they make.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.

So both options are valid for PS too then?

Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.

The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.

So your answer to my question was a lie. So why can't you truthfully answer the question? What is preventing you from honestly answering the question?

The reason most people play the RaW is because it is absolutely clear that it is also the RaI. Given that you admitted to lying in your response to an honest simple question your claims of RaI ring very hollow.

What answer is a lie? I have not been lying. I sometimes wonder about your English comprehension though. Not to mention you have an obnoxious tendency to put words in other peoples mouth. (E.G "I accept your concession" "Given that you admitted to lying . . "). Your argument style is ridiculously bad and you should cut that stuff out. That kind of stuff has no place in a YMDC thread.

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
And what is the Strength of Psychic Shriek?

GW does not provide you with that info. The rules are broken. You are missing a critical profile. You cannot resolve PS from a pure RAW standpoint. We are by necessity in house rule land. Since it's fairly obvious what the RAI would be, following BAO, NOVA, ETC is the way to go from there.

So why not make up a Strength? As long as we're going to make up a profile.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.

So both options are valid for PS too then?

Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.

The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.

So asked you why you were treating 2 things differently. You said you weren't because both the options for one of those two things were valid. Which means that both of those options must be the same for the other situation or you are not treating them the same. So when you then say that is not the case you are stating that your response is not true. So it is a lie. This is what you have stated. So why can't you answer the question truthfully? What is preventing you from doing so?

You can't really complain about my debating style when I ask you a question and you avoid it. I ask it again you say what question (aka avoid it again). So I ask it a third time and you lie in your response. That is really not helpful to the discussion. Which brings me back to why won't you truthfully answer the question?

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why do you treat this differently to the roll to hit for PS?

I am not. Both options for enfeeble are valid applications of the rules. One leads to a silly result and so is discarded.

So both options are valid for PS too then?

Nope. PS needs to resolve as witchfire to take effect. You don't get to skip requisite steps. If the rules are broken to the extent that you can't resolve it, the power does not take effect. If both players can come up with a way to fix the situation then so be it but of course that's HYWPI.

The reason people almost unanimously play it according to the BAO, NOVA, ETC way is because that way is obviously RAI.

So asked you why you were treating 2 things differently. You said you weren't because both the options for one of those two things were valid. Which means that both of those options must be the same for the other situation or you are not treating them the same. So when you then say that is not the case you are stating that your response is not true. So it is a lie. This is what you have stated. So why can't you answer the question truthfully? What is preventing you from doing so?

You can't really complain about my debating style when I ask you a question and you avoid it. I ask it again you say what question (aka avoid it again). So I ask it a third time and you lie in your response. That is really not helpful to the discussion. Which brings me back to why won't you truthfully answer the question?

Huh?. In the case of PS there are not two equally valid solutions. There is only a broken situation where strict RAW does not lead to resolution. So it's not the same at all.