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I am a bit torn between these two units, and I would like to hear dakkas opinion on them. I have made a short list of their pros and cons.

Sanguary guard
+ Far superior weapons
+ +2 save
- cost

Death company
+ furious charge, rage etc.
+ feel no pain
+ cost
+ customability
+ more attacks

I made some calculations regarding their saves and it seems they are almost equally durable. If they are both shot by weapons that don't pass their armour saves, then the fnp makes the DC almost as durable, as if both receive 18 wounds 4 DC and 3 SG will die.

They are both pretty good units, but generally DC are considered to be better. As you pointed out DC are fairly tough while being cheaper than SG, even with jump packs. I would advise DC personally, as you can get more bodies which is critical to reaching an assault. DC have way more attacks and you can throw a fist or two in there to take down heavy targets. But, their weight of attacks is usually considered better.

DC are better for their points against most targets. They have a high volume of S5 attacks to face off against hordes, the hidden fists to deal damage against TEQ and MC, and the FNP to get saves against low AP weapons.

Sanguinary Guard are better for fighting other MEQ, or for cases such as when you're fighting against units with AP3 weapons (e.g., banshees). Those 2+ saves are great. The also get pretty decent AP4 assault bolters, which can do a surprising amount of damage against 4+ armor targets (e.g., Dire Avengers). They can get squad-wide AP2 weapons at the cost of initiative, and so can deal damage to TEQ (but will die like bitches to AP2 attacks). They also combo quite well with a Sanguinary Priest.

The issue with Sanguinary Guard is that their role is more specialized, and DC can fill that roll well enough.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
DC are better for their points against most targets. They have a high volume of S5 attacks to face off against hordes, the hidden fists to deal damage against TEQ and MC, and the FNP to get saves against low AP weapons.

Sanguinary Guard are better for fighting other MEQ, or for cases such as when you're fighting against units with AP3 weapons (e.g., banshees). Those 2+ saves are great. The also get pretty decent AP4 assault bolters, which can do a surprising amount of damage against 4+ armor targets (e.g., Dire Avengers). They can get squad-wide AP2 weapons at the cost of initiative, and so can deal damage to TEQ (but will die like bitches to AP2 attacks). They also combo quite well with a Sanguinary Priest.

The issue with Sanguinary Guard is that their role is more specialized, and DC can fill that roll well enough.

So I guess 10 DC with 3 fists would be ideal?

I run a unit of both, but DC are better. Though if you put a Sanguinary Priest with the Sanguinary Guard& they get really good.

Sang guard are a hit or miss unit. Honestly if you feel like your enemy will be bringing a lot of ap2 weapons then you are better off running DC. A rule of thumb I use is 1 TH or power fist /5 men. Give or take one as points allow.

If you feel you will be facing a lot of ap3 weapons or 3/4+ armor saves sang guard will do very well. Sang guard require a sang priest however. Its not optional.

I run 10 DC with a fist, a chappy and Dante as my hammer unit. Chappy gives rerolls on the charge (where you're getting +2 A for the charge) and Dante let you rinse and repeat with Hit n Run whilst bring high I ap2 attacks.

I would pick DC everytime.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
I run 10 DC with a fist, a chappy and Dante as my hammer unit. Chappy gives rerolls on the charge (where you're getting +2 A for the charge) and Dante let you rinse and repeat with Hit n Run whilst bring high I ap2 attacks.

I would pick DC everytime.

D

You could really go nuts and run the same setup with Asorath and reroll wounds too.

Sanguinary guard have the "elite" issue of every guy being loaded out with good stuff you paid points for and don't want to lose. They don't have any bullet catchers.

DC can have several guys at minimum cost to catch bullets while the hidden fists do all the work once they get where they're going. It's the same logic behind why ork boys with a pk nob are a really good unit; because you haven't seriously hurt them until the nob dies. Similarly, you'll see experienced nid players field a mix of termagants with the no-equip ones at the front of a unit, and the back ~half of the unit with gun upgrades.

I have found that sanguinary guard work better as an escort for a character or 2. I commonly run 5 with Dante and a priest and never regret it. The unit is expensive but rarely fails to make up around 150% of its points in any given game. Think of them as a sort of flying honor guard.

Death company, on the other hand, work far better on their own. 5 with jump packs and a fist or 10 with packs and 2 fists is my favorite loadout. They require no characters to unlock their full potential and can do wonders even when unsupported.

TLDR; if you are planning on running a sanguinary priest and need an escort for a character, go with Sanguinary Guard. If you just need some assault units that work on their own or want to run Astorath, grab some death company.

Unless you attack squishy things or small low toughness units they both suck

jakejackjake wrote:
Unless you attack squishy things or small low toughness units they both suck

Um... no?

Big things my death company have killed: ravenwing black knights, thunderwolves, wraithknights, countless terminators, wraithguard, tervigons, carnifexs, old necron bargelords

Big things my sanguinary guard have killed: all of that as well.

Granted, death co are better at killing big things and SG are better at shredding through MEQs, but really that's a very incorrect statement.

One overlord with warscythe, and 10 warriors of mine killed a unit of both in one combat last game I played. I lost 4 warriors. I just don't think I've ever seen them get their points back

You had to roll pretty good to kill a wraithknight with DC without have 1 million powerfists. 1 million attacks with no AP is pretty good but 20 is nothing against all , but the weakest units in the game which are only there to die anyway. Why take a whole unit to keep 1 powerfists alive. There are better less time consuming ways to get a poweful shot on the table

Sounds like a fluke. Nice fluke, bro.

I like Sanguinary Guard with a Priest better as they can effectively kill a wider range of enemy units.

jakejackjake wrote:
One overlord with warscythe, and 10 warriors of mine killed a unit of both in one combat last game I played. I lost 4 warriors. I just don't think I've ever seen them get their points back

You had to roll pretty good to kill a wraithknight with DC without have 1 million powerfists. 1 million attacks with no AP is pretty good but 20 is nothing against all , but the weakest units in the game which are only there to die anyway. Why take a whole unit to keep 1 powerfists alive. There are better less time consuming ways to get a poweful shot on the table

You are Necrons. What did you expect?

 th3maninblak wrote:
Sounds like a fluke. Nice fluke, bro.

Yes but me not seeing them ever getting their points worth unless against bad players I don't think is a flute. All of the big things you took down with Death Company were flukes as well. I was kind of picking at that with my anecdotal evidence for why they suck. They are not points extremely point efficient.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I like Sanguinary Guard with a Priest better as they can effectively kill a wider range of enemy units.

well, volume of attacks on DC makes it so they can kill just about anything. Especially if you include a Power Fist. But SG with the occasional axe and fist with a Priest do quite well too. I run a unit of both. Best of both worlds.

Personally while I like the SG's style, I don't run them for 2 specific reasons.

1. They have no sergeant. Sure I can stick a priest in there, but at the end of the day he's a 2 wound fully challengable guy without the benefit of the arty armor all the other dudes have, so he's not actually gonna last that long vs anything more powerful than he is and I can't gloriously intervene to help his skinny butt out of a jam. That effectively means I need to focus this unit on weaker units where possible to keep him safe, but the DC already do that job really well for fewer points.

2. They have too few attacks. Let me be clear on that, you "have" to pay for that banner just to bring a 5 man crew up to the 20 attacks that a five man crew of lightning claw termies is gonna get base. By taking the banner so you have all those extra attacks, the SG are now within 2 points of being just as expensive as the termies per model, but the termies come with a built in invuln save and can additionally take storm shields. I view this as a trade off, basically invulns vs movement speed between the two units. In the end, given how much AP2 is currently in the shooting phase for alot of armies, even given a priests additional FnP, I'm gonna miss invulns. I just can't justify that vs simply throwing extra models or PF's into my regular old DC units.

If I was running Dante, I "would" run them, but I'd put a priest in there as well and just make a super expensive very destructive unit. As it stand however, I'm not actually running Dante, so for now, I'd rather just run the priesty with a different group like bikes or termies who I feel make overall better use of his FnP.

My sang guard, have rarely under performed.

A good unit to run with them are a sang priest and a lib, on a bike. Yes, give the HQs a bike, its worth it.

Now, you have a lib, you can roll on divination and have a chance of getting a 4++ or, at least reroll to hit.

Their guns are effective vs 50% of basic troops/semi specialist troops in the game being ap4, str4 hurts but eh. They are assault.


The whole no Sgt. Thing is a -boon-. More than a hindrance. (DC also have this boon)

Can you explain how it's a boon, because I honestly can't see it?

What I'm seeing is either having a unit that 'can' help out my Priest in the event of a challenge or not. How is it a boon to just 'not' have that option available? Is there something I'm missing? Or are you pointing to the idea of just not running a character in the squad at all as a better option? Is your example of putting a Libby on a bike technically "not" in the unit itself, like the Priest would be?

Just deny the challenge. If I run a priest in a SG unit, I run him naked. The whole unit is full of crazy master crafted power weaponry pointing out every which way; They don't need more power weapon help. Just the chainsword and pistol is fine. And that means you don't particularly care about turning down a challenge from anything dangerous to the priest.

Honestly the only time I ever run Sanguinary guard is with Dante and a priest. That way I have someone who will murder just about anyone in a challenge, or force other ICs to deny and not fight. Plus he tanks wounds for them.

I also have no idea why people are afraid of wraithknights. I killed one in a single turn last night. Shot it with a stormraven, did 2 wounds and concussed it, charged with 10 death co with 2 fists and a captain with valours edge, and it died. I lose 2 death company.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Honestly the only time I ever run Sanguinary guard is with Dante and a priest. That way I have someone who will murder just about anyone in a challenge, or force other ICs to deny and not fight. Plus he tanks wounds for them.

I also have no idea why people are afraid of wraithknights. I killed one in a single turn last night. Shot it with a stormraven, did 2 wounds and concussed it, charged with 10 death co with 2 fists and a captain with valours edge, and it died. I lose 2 death company.

That sounds like you focused 600 points of army on a 300 point model, and you also got very lucky. Math says you should have done about 3.5-4 wounds with a multimelta and 4 missiles, followed by that furious charging death company. (And VE captain)

niv-mizzet wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Honestly the only time I ever run Sanguinary guard is with Dante and a priest. That way I have someone who will murder just about anyone in a challenge, or force other ICs to deny and not fight. Plus he tanks wounds for them.

I also have no idea why people are afraid of wraithknights. I killed one in a single turn last night. Shot it with a stormraven, did 2 wounds and concussed it, charged with 10 death co with 2 fists and a captain with valours edge, and it died. I lose 2 death company.

That sounds like you focused 600 points of army on a 300 point model, and you also got very lucky. Math says you should have done about 3.5-4 wounds with a multimelta and 4 missiles, followed by that furious charging death company. (And VE captain)

Here's what people don't understand. In an actual game, its not always about "this unit costs this much, it must kill this much"

More often its about making sure that expensive unit kills the target you threw it at, because that target can/would do the most damage to your army if it lives.

If I have to spend 600 hell even 700 pts to make sure your 300pt unit, that is the largest threat to my victory dies, I'll gladly do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:
Can you explain how it's a boon, because I honestly can't see it?

What I'm seeing is either having a unit that 'can' help out my Priest in the event of a challenge or not. How is it a boon to just 'not' have that option available? Is there something I'm missing? Or are you pointing to the idea of just not running a character in the squad at all as a better option? Is your example of putting a Libby on a bike technically "not" in the unit itself, like the Priest would be?

I enjoy running a lib and priest on a bike with the sang guard. (You can even add Dante...)

You have a chance for a 4++ or 5++ power depending on the discipline you roll on, and other nice powers.

You simply deny the challenge. The power of units like SG and DC is that fists/ other I1 weapons can't be challenged out.

casvalremdeikun wrote:

 evildrcheese wrote:
I run 10 DC with a fist, a chappy and Dante as my hammer unit. Chappy gives rerolls on the charge (where you're getting +2 A for the charge) and Dante let you rinse and repeat with Hit n Run whilst bring high I ap2 attacks.

I would pick DC everytime.

D

You could really go nuts and run the same setup with Asorath and reroll wounds too.

True, but I don't own Asorath. Also the unit is expensive as it is and the normal chappy usually gets the veritas veritea. However I agree adding Astorath would make this combo especially brutal!

th3maninblak wrote:I have found that sanguinary guard work better as an escort for a character or 2. I commonly run 5 with Dante and a priest and never regret it. The unit is expensive but rarely fails to make up around 150% of its points in any given game. Think of them as a sort of flying honor guard.

Death company, on the other hand, work far better on their own. 5 with jump packs and a fist or 10 with packs and 2 fists is my favorite loadout. They require no characters to unlock their full potential and can do wonders even when unsupported.

TLDR; if you are planning on running a sanguinary priest and need an escort for a character, go with Sanguinary Guard. If you just need some assault units that work on their own or want to run Astorath, grab some death company.

From my experience I wouldn't say that DC can do wonders on their own, especially such small units. They're no longer BS5 , so chances are you will miss half of your attacks, then on your non upgraded guys they'll get their saves. So I've found that without the force multiplies the DC can be lack lustre, but with the force multiplies and a decent number of bodies there is little they can't handle.

D

Too much AP 2 for sanguinary guards.

Martel732 wrote:
Too much AP 2 for sanguinary guards.

Not if you use a decent amount of terrain. Cover is so easy to find this edition it's rediculous. A 5+/5+++ will protect you slightly better than an iron halo, and if the sanguinary guard happen to be in ruins it's as if they all had storm shields. This is yet another reason I usually run them with Dante as he can soak wounds for the squad.

But truth be told, I never leave home without my death company, and my SG usually sit out unless I'm playing with the lord commander himself.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Too much AP 2 for sanguinary guards.

Not if you use a decent amount of terrain. Cover is so easy to find this edition it's rediculous. A 5+/5+++ will protect you slightly better than an iron halo, and if the sanguinary guard happen to be in ruins it's as if they all had storm shields. This is yet another reason I usually run them with Dante as he can soak wounds for the squad.

But truth be told, I never leave home without my death company, and my SG usually sit out unless I'm playing with the lord commander himself.

Cover is only a 5++, and the FNP save costs extra points. Going from a 2+ to a 5++ is catastrophic for a model that costs as much as a sanguinary guard. Any unit with Dante is going to be very deadly in CC, so why not put Dante with regular schmucks?

2+ armor save can be really good... You just have to be careful... With Dante's H&R that can be really brutal. I would add a Priest and Chaplain for the super Death Star.