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This may be something, or it may be me seeing something that isn't there, but I wanted to know if others have noticed this trend:

Ever since Calth dropped, it seems that there has been a shift in how 30k was/is typically played. Before Calth, a lot of the community (that I saw) was a lot more into the idea of fluff lists, or just bringing what they thought looked cool. Yeah, there was still a decent amount of "dual kheres" and "Sicarians!" before but there was still a lot of "I'm bringing 40 assault marines because that's what X legion does." But since Calth dropped, I'm noticing more people wanting to only bring the best, or when someone asks "how should I expand" more people are shouting "bring the best" as opposed to "bring what's fluffy/you like", just as one example. Is it a case of 40k's general opinions on list building coming over: things like MSUs and other "current meta" things in 40k; or is it just something that I never noticed it before? Is this a long-term shift in opinion for the player base, or is it temporary from most newer players being limited to the contents of Calth at the moment?

Is it just me seeing this and/or overthinking? I'd love to be wrong, but what do you all think?

I cannot, at all, disagree with you. I think one of your last statement/ questions hits it on the head. BaC boxset content. There are really only two routes to travel with this. A potentially un-fluffy Pride of the Legion force or a limited, but again, potentially another un-fluffy tactical squad based force. Either requires some dependable go to units that a lot of players recommend based off their experiences. This unfortunately creates some bland lists.

I too have my "best" units even in my infantry dominant World Eaters. A Spartan and a Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with two Kheres assault cannons. These units fill in multiple rolls that I have chosen to exclude to give my army a more fluff feel.

I think that Calth has opened up 30k to the average 40k player where as before it was relegated to people who were willing to spend WAY too much on plastic guys with a different look for fluff and lore reasons. Now that people are able to buy in with BaC for less then a 40k starting army and get more we are going to see more competitive people in 30k.

IMO this is not exactly a bad thing since it is opening 30k up to be used in more events. My local shop is running an 1850 tourney this week that is 40k/30k for the first time. Considering running my Luna Wolves as actual 30k Marines.

I haven't noticed anything different, spartans/kheres contemptors/sicarans/castellax were being spammed long before BaC came out, and they fit into almost all "fluffy" lists. It's still a competitive game - of course people are going to gravitate towards strong units.

There has been a slight shift, however in the places where 30k is already established, it will not last long, as the new blood moves towards the kind of games the establishment plays, be this competitive or non.

I am messaged every day by players of 30k both here and from our gaming group, all asking "what is the best way to play X army" and I always answer the same, "what do you like? What fits the theme of the army"

Formosa is 100% right.

I am of the mindset that I balance fluff and power. I am going to get a Sicaran. I won't lie, it is in part because it is a very good tank. It is also crazy cool though!

Overall, considering a play a list that is mainly melee/very short range shooting, I feel pretty secure in the knowledge that I don't go too far.

Most people I meet are the same.

I am in the process of building my Sons of Horus Army and having a blast doing it. I am just building and painting what I think the SoH would be. I wish others in my area were more interested in 30k, currently I am the only one in a 3 hour radius, so Hopefully I can play sometime for my first game. So Rule of cool and lore is my top priority.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
I think that Calth has opened up 30k to the average 40k player where as before it was relegated to people who were willing to spend WAY too much on plastic guys with a different look for fluff and lore reasons. Now that people are able to buy in with BaC for less then a 40k starting army and get more we are going to see more competitive people in 30k.

IMO this is not exactly a bad thing since it is opening 30k up to be used in more events. My local shop is running an 1850 tourney this week that is 40k/30k for the first time. Considering running my Luna Wolves as actual 30k Marines.

Pretty much my thoughts, too. 30K was for those of us who, generally, had more money than sense, so playing for the "joy of playing" was the goal (and the lack of competitive 30K events also kept many out). Now that the cost of entry is much lower, and now that there are more competitive events becoming available for 30K, we will see more people playing for the "joy of winning".

In the past at events I've played against some pretty competitive lists that maxed out the best stuff, which meant they had a ton of expensive units (or sourced them from China).

As only the price of standard bodies, terminators and contemptors has dropped spamming the more expensive stuff, which is usually the strongest stuff FW do for 30k is going to be out of reach for the majority of new players.

We'll see. I don't predict a huge exodus of the younger generation of competitive players to 30K. 40K and 30K are structured differently, with different challenges and rewards. And as others have said, it's not as if 30K players haven't shown up to events bringing all the best stuff already.

Also, it's up to the community to police itself, both in your immediate groups and at any gathering and events. If you're a TO or have influence with a TO of a 30K event, try to reward the right people and armies. Soft scores have been demonized into oblivion on the 40K side, but the right application of soft scores on the 30K side can go a long way to keeping the hobby intact.

And you know, it's not exactly out of the question that some players will migrate over to 30K and change their behavior and approach to the hobby.

What I am seeing mainly is not "what is the best unit" etc kind of posts, but rather what is more or less effective.

I can say for myself it's hard to wrap my head around the units in the Legions book to see what is actually effective, and then what is a good build for those units.

I'm approaching 30K from a completely noncompetitive standpoint, but at the same time I don't want to build and paint up units with gimpy loadouts, or ones that I won't end up using ever, so it helps to get advice from more experienced players that use these armies/units.

At last year's AdeptiCon HH events, I'd pigeonhole most of the players to be laid-back modelers, gamers, and/or avid HH fans.

We'll see if the "ease of availability issue" has any affect on it this year, but I'm hoping not. I really enjoyed last year's events.

There was a HH event near where i lived that was right after BAC hit and it was 4 people who had actual armies and 5 people with chinacast stuff and 21 people who had 2-3 BAC and some converted 40k stuff

 hanshotfirst wrote:
There was a HH event near where i lived that was right after BAC hit and it was 4 people who had actual armies and 5 people with chinacast stuff and 21 people who had 2-3 BAC and some converted 40k stuff

This is what I dislike about BaC. 30k used to be reserved for really well painted FW armies showcasing a diversity of units and tactics. Now it's turning into little Timmy with his 2 box sets and some rhinos, hastily assembled and maybe primed.

 Toofast wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
There was a HH event near where i lived that was right after BAC hit and it was 4 people who had actual armies and 5 people with chinacast stuff and 21 people who had 2-3 BAC and some converted 40k stuff

This is what I dislike about BaC. 30k used to be reserved for really well painted FW armies showcasing a diversity of units and tactics. Now it's turning into little Timmy with his 2 box sets and some rhinos, hastily assembled and maybe primed.

I didn't want this post to sound "elitest" from my end, but it kinda bothered me that 30k is loosing a bit of it's flavor to mass "pride of the legion" and basically pulling a 40k with the start of power creep among players. Maybe I was (and still am) being paranoid, but since it's release I've noticed it more and more. Every post mentioning armies typically ends with "and what's the strongest X or Y", It just bums me out, and I hope that I'm just imagining it, and that it doesn't become to common locally (Ignoring the 4 new HH players who have 2 calth boxes + constant questions on how they can bring more sicarians, spartans, and fire raptor equivalents :( ).

I'd say part of its Flavor is the option to do what ever, so if people need to play Pride of the Legion let them. But when they ask what's strongest, just tell them to build the army how they want to.

I mean, I'm using BaC to get into the game after sitting on my money waiting to pick up one of the Bundles that are no longer available from FW (which still irks me). Though I also immediately bought the Legion Upgrades for my Legion. I'm looking at running a PotL to represent a Raven Guard strike force Post-Dropsite.

Edit: I would actually be running Chosen Warriors or what ever the Delegatus RoW is.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I'd say part of its Flavor is the option to do what ever, so if people need to play Pride of the Legion let them. But when they ask what's strongest, just tell them to build the army how they want to.

I mean, I'm using BaC to get into the game after sitting on my money waiting to pick up one of the Bundles that are no longer available from FW (which still irks me). Though I also immediately bought the Legion Upgrades for my Legion. I'm looking at running a PotL to represent a Raven Guard strike force Post-Dropsite.

Edit: I would actually be running Chosen Warriors or what ever the Delegatus RoW is.

Yeah, kind of, but I think the difference it how "pride of the legion" would be used. If you want to run a small, elite task force, it makes sense. If you are just using PotL to bring in minimal troops so you can try and build a MSU list with all the "typical" 40k flavor, it seems to be almost "missing the point" if I'm using the right phrase.

Yeah, I can see the issue there.

Edit: (Rather than double post): Looking at it with the example you provided then, yeah I can see how PotL would get tiring very quickly.

I feel like the sticker shock of both GW games is the main contributor to the "what is the best X?" concerns.

I know I am a lot more selective about what I purchase now than I was as a kid. When you're looking at hundreds to get started and easily passing a thousand to flesh out, dud units sting that much more.

 Eldarain wrote:
I feel like the sticker shock of both GW games is the main contributor to the "what is the best X?" concerns.

I know I am a lot more selective about what I purchase now than I was as a kid. When you're looking at hundreds to get started and easily passing a thousand to flesh out, dud units sting that much more.

This. Forge World stuff is expensive. It'd suck to spend a $100+, take the time to clean/assemble it, paint it and then find out it doesn't work well. I think there is a clear difference between army optimization and WAAC competitiveness. And army optimization existed well before BaC in 30k.

I feel like I've chosen exactly the wrong time to begin with 30K. I wanted to do a small force of juuuust pre heresy EC. So I started picking up bits, and my original advice was based on fluff and the whole "pride/study" element.

Now when I ask my friends, "Get BaC! Get BaC!", "Split a BaC box with me.", "You want noise marines and dreads because they can eat face."
"I don't want to."
"Then you'll lose."

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I feel like I've chosen exactly the wrong time to begin with 30K. I wanted to do a small force of juuuust pre heresy EC. So I started picking up bits, and my original advice was based on fluff and the whole "pride/study" element.

Now when I ask my friends, "Get BaC! Get BaC!", "Split a BaC box with me.", "You want noise marines and dreads because they can eat face."
"I don't want to."
"Then you'll lose."

Ironically, Noise Marines and Contemptors are some of the slightly weaker choices. But the best thing about 30k is even the weaker choices are still excellent units to use and will find plenty of action.

Stick with what you like. Personally, I'm planning a Proteus Squadron. Underpowered? Probably. Scare opponent with a wall of AV14? Oh yes. Look excellent on the tabletop? Definitely!

Thinking about this, BaC is now set up as an "essential" purchase, due to price point for the average player.
Starting today, I would be torn to justify starting with a Primarch or small squad, compared to BaC. I play next to the Forgeworld store, and I'm becoming immune to wincing at the pricing. But I'd still be seriously conflicted.
So in my mind, it does change the face of the system.

I see it more as the 'Gateway Drug'. Sure you have BaC and can paint them as your Legion, but you can buy these upgrades, or throw in some Mk III. Then there's the special units and the Primarchs. It sort of feels like they are taking FW and 30k back to how FW was before 30k.

Upgrade sets, books and Special Units/Vehicles.

I'm in the "drop PoTL as a RoW" camp - if you only have terminators, veterans and the 'optimal' vehicles it's just 40k again.
On the other side of things - At least there aren't any formations then.

I dhunno.
Kids these days eh?

I dont think anyone is saying drop PotL, I think what's being said is that people should be encouraged to not go with optimal.

PotL should be kept because it is a helpful way to get more people involved. Telling them straight up "No that's bad you are doing it wrong." Is no the correct way to go about having 30k thrive. Encouraging them to build lists for fun and more on the fluffy side is what should be done.

 Toofast wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
There was a HH event near where i lived that was right after BAC hit and it was 4 people who had actual armies and 5 people with chinacast stuff and 21 people who had 2-3 BAC and some converted 40k stuff

This is what I dislike about BaC. 30k used to be reserved for really well painted FW armies showcasing a diversity of units and tactics. Now it's turning into little Timmy with his 2 box sets and some rhinos, hastily assembled and maybe primed.

Is this the normal thinking process of 30k players? Sneering at player B for using BaC Starter sets and loving Player A for buying FW instead? Or is it more of having a painted army? Confused on some people sounding "elitist" and others just being happy that are more players.

 conker249 wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
There was a HH event near where i lived that was right after BAC hit and it was 4 people who had actual armies and 5 people with chinacast stuff and 21 people who had 2-3 BAC and some converted 40k stuff

This is what I dislike about BaC. 30k used to be reserved for really well painted FW armies showcasing a diversity of units and tactics. Now it's turning into little Timmy with his 2 box sets and some rhinos, hastily assembled and maybe primed.

Is this the normal thinking process of 30k players? Sneering at player B for using BaC Starter sets and loving Player A for buying FW instead? Or is it more of having a painted army? Confused on some people sounding "elitist" and others just being happy that are more players.

This the thinking process no. Because ive seen some terrific and some terrible paint. A lot of the trepidation comes from things like what buttery mentioned. "U don't want that you want this it will smash face" "so? My Legion doesn't use that" "oh well you'll just lose"

I've been playing with my 1k sons almost exclusively even against 40k armies for almost a year and a half, so I'm well rooted in what I'm playing and now with Calth out, there are people picking it up to start 30k, there are people with Grey plastic legions telling me what I need to play with or drop or bring multiples of to win.

That gets on my nerves big time. I don't like anyone telling me how to play, and when 30k revolves more around fluff and story the "Must win, bring the best, smash face" attitude does get old and isn't what a Great deal of 30k players look for.

I'm just getting started with a Cybernetica force to be backed by Skitarii. I'll be honest, I freakin love the models. The steam/cyber-punk vibe is fantastic. The other reason is that aesthetically I HATE 40k cult mechanicus. I'd gladly trade the murderwagon servitors for a couple squads of thallax, some castellax, a couple techpriests and thanatar of some sort. Plus I see Ryza as one of the few Forgeworlds with the cajones to tell Mars to stuff it when it comes to 'no more automatons' if people question me using them in 40k.

 conker249 wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
There was a HH event near where i lived that was right after BAC hit and it was 4 people who had actual armies and 5 people with chinacast stuff and 21 people who had 2-3 BAC and some converted 40k stuff

This is what I dislike about BaC. 30k used to be reserved for really well painted FW armies showcasing a diversity of units and tactics. Now it's turning into little Timmy with his 2 box sets and some rhinos, hastily assembled and maybe primed.

Is this the normal thinking process of 30k players? Sneering at player B for using BaC Starter sets and loving Player A for buying FW instead? Or is it more of having a painted army? Confused on some people sounding "elitist" and others just being happy that are more players.

Personally for me: It's neither. My issue with BaC isn't that it's cheap or "not forge world" but that it brought a lot of the ideals from 40k over to 30k. Since Calth was released, I've seen more and more people telling others that they should go the "This is the single best unit, and you should have 20" approach, instead of the "older" common opinion that people should go fluffy, or lists that are fun/looks cool to them.

I'm glad that there are more 30k players, but I'm not glad that it seems like a lot of these newer players are bringing over the 40k list building ideas of "min-max so you can bring more game-winning cheese" I'm not to glad to see so many newer players rush to, and stick with, pride of the legion for no reason other then "I can use these guys with 40k AND it lets me bring more spartans/typhons/fire raptor equivalent"

I've already seen it locally when a few people immediately started bringing up "I'm gonna bring 2 librarians, put them in a 20-man assault squad with a praetor and primarch, and cast invis, and back them up with a TJetbikes, outriders, and 6 rapiers" while talking about Death Guard. :(