Gert wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Ok my turn. Write the question again and actually write it coherently this time if no one got it.

Seems perfectly coherent to me but sure.

When has GW ever written a Codex (A), removed a unit/units and placed them into a separate Codex (B), and indicated that said unit/units that are now in Codex B can still be used in a list taken from Codex A but not a single other unit from Codex B, forcing you to buy Codex B for potentially a single unit.
For example, removing Plague Marines from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, placing them into Codex: Death Guard, and saying CSM can still take Plague Marines but not any other unit from DG and you have to buy Codex: DG to use Plague Marines.
When has this ever happened?

If this seems like a very confusing and stupid question, that's because it is. It is the situation that Kid_Kyoto said they believed was something GW would do and I'm a little bit tired of people just making up BS to be mad about.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
CSM have proven they can work with one codex via the 7th Edition book + the supplement. It just needs correct internal balance.

*Cough*

You mean the outdated 6th ed Codex. The Traitor Legions supplement that showed up about 5 months before the entire ruleset was overhauled. And the FW Imperial Armour book because no CSM army was running without that during 6th and 7th edition 40k.

Also, the 6th ed Codex was awful. And we basically got lumped with it and its horrific imbalanced self for the majority of 2 editions. Traitor Legions was literally a band aid that did a LOT of heavy lifting to fix it and we got that for a grand total of about 5 months.

 Crimson wrote:
I wish power axes, mauls and swords were lumped back together into "power weapons" and chain swords and axes into "chain weapons" but if both of these and lightning claws and power fists are all lumped together in one massive category, then that just seems totally wrong...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.

drbored wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.

In a way, this isn't the worst thing. It means you can have a mishmash of weapons for looks (for those fluff bunnies that mix everything, anyway) but you only need to roll for one profile. If anything, it's brilliant.

The real question will come down to cost, rest of the range options, and access to D2+ weapons.

If this is true, then your D2+ weapons will be overcharged plasma, melta, and probably a stratagem (ugh) that turns all of your Accursed Weapons into power fists for a turn. Their effectiveness will probably come down to what combinations of Icon + Daemonic Gift + trait you can give them.

I don't know... It does feel very wrong. It's a whole part of the hobby no ? To customize, to play with and to paint "your dudes". Like with the harly weapons it seem like they didn't even want to bother.
And remember that rumour says that Chaos Knights will come out before us. So it's two releases at least before we finally get our second wound.

I don't need a special rule to tell me that my Chosen wielding an axe is a different special guy with a different special weapon than my Chosen wielding a sword. I especially don't need to spend 3 hours resolving the attacks of my super unique super special super squad because each one has been customized with a unique weapon.

Consolidated weapons like harlequins and Chosen (if these are true) are, for me, the best way for them to allow me to fully customize and play with my dudes. I have honestly been *not* building Chosen specifically because I didn't want to play with their messy weapon options, and also didn't want to optimize and take this year's strongest weapons. Chosen are supposed to be unique guys with their own preferred ways of doing things, having all of them wield a chainsword and a plasma gun doesn't show case that at all. Having Kroghas wield a power axe, Chulxiss wield a chainsword, and Trommal wield a thunder hammer but still being able to quickly roll all my attacks at once is perfect.

Big disagree. I can see the time saved, but thematically it goes against everything that Chosen are. You could just as easily take a squad of Khorne Berzerkers or Warp Talons or anything else if all you wanted to do was roll a bunch of the same attack to blend something up. Each Chosen is a step (or betrayal) away from becoming a Lord in their own right, and having them all baked down into one flat weapon profile is bleh.

They gave Black Templar sword brethren different weapon profiles, so why couldn't they do the same with Chosen?

But, again, I stand by my prediction that these are just the Eldritch Omens rules and not the Codex rules, and will be disappointed or delighted accordingly when the codex comes out.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Last I checked, the Sword Brethren profile was awfully done

It's nicely formatted, said the man, damning with faint praise:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I forget. How many kinds of boltguns do Primaris Space Marines have again?

Doobie! You're like a moth to flame when Chaos threads appear. Never a bad thing.

And yeah, Marines have, I believe, 16 and a half different types of Boltgun currently. But you know how it goes: And They Shall Know No Inconvenient Rules.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Plant wrote:
Unless accursed weapons are str+2, AP-3, and damage 3, in which case no one is going to care they're all the same stats.

The current rumor puts the Accursed Weapons at the statline of a Power Sword. I think I'll be okay with that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Agreed. I'm nervous for Possessed.

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Flayed Ones of Mono-Pose?

You have every right to be worried.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Personally I think it's kind of amazing just how many releases Death Guard got, yet despite that they still managed to invalidate every squad in my army.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

drbored wrote:
Havocs used to be able to take regular bolter guys to fill out their ranks (ablative wounds). Now, they're just squads of 5, with the champion and 4 heavy weapon carriers.

 Sasori wrote:
Yeah, I mean I think everyone here understands these are rumors.

At least from my perspective, the stuff so far seems pretty feasible. If it's fake, I'll at least applaud the effort being put in, because nearly everything so far I could see being pretty legitimate. As far as that is concerned, we should have a pretty good idea after the CSM side of the KT box is shown how legitimate some if it is.

Anyway,

Harkaan getting improved sure would be nice. I'm hoping he's like an Elite or something in the new book though, or doesn't take up a slot.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think there should be room for both extremes, and a balance, for CSM.

Relatively recent Renegades, still piecing together what they're doing.

Not Online!!! wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think there should be room for both extremes, and a balance, for CSM.

Relatively recent Renegades, still piecing together what they're doing.

And they should just use the main SM codex because Renegades wouldn't suddenly forget they can use Landspeeders and Whirlwinds. The main Loyalist Scum codex needs to accommodate Huron and the Red Corsairs, the Crimson Slaughter, etc.

the best thing about the SM dex is, that it has more support and if you wanna go legion, you get all the ancient stuff like grav guns and such, which chaos marines just forgot, outside of FW of course.

 Irbis wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And they should just use the main SM codex because Renegades wouldn't suddenly forget they can use Landspeeders and Whirlwinds.

They would, actually. Both are very intensive in both materiel and infrastructure weapons systems that require tons of maintenance, spare parts, and specialized ammunition that can only be provided if you have a stable base of operations and supply network from friendly forge worlds. Something both renegades and heretic CSM would lack. Whirlwind is completely useless if you can't procure missiles. Too bad logistics and logic don't work on wishful thinking, then CSM would be most powerful faction in the setting

 blood reaper wrote:
Ah my old enemies; "Chaos Space Marines don't have Multi-Meltas and Plasma guns for whatever reason" and "Red Corsairs (an explicitly Chaos-ified faction who have not resembled loyalists with red crosses over their aquillas for four editions now) need to be moved into the Space Marine codex", we meet again.

arcanum wrote:

MrNibbles wrote:

arcanum wrote:
I really wonder what they are going to do to base marines/legionaries.

The CSM doctrines (exploding 6s) are weaker than their marine equivalents (+1 ap). But GW math isn't going to realise that.

I agree with you as well, though in regards to regular troops, the question how things will mesh with the Icons (rumored Icon of Wrath -1 AP in shooting) - suddenly you have exploding 6s with -1, or 5s if you play Black Legion.

Yup having run the numbers and excluding 6+ saves (rare), AP0, AP1 +1AP is better (so loyalists get better bolters fists and chainswords) but as soon as there is higher AP the maths swing to make exploding 6s better.

Loyalists get better with volume, Heretics get better with higher AP.

But given the spread of weapons and actually playing the game I think loyalists get the advantage here (but probably not worth a Point of advantage on a tactical marine profile)

 blood reaper wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Ah my old enemies; "Chaos Space Marines don't have Multi-Meltas and Plasma guns for whatever reason" and "Red Corsairs (an explicitly Chaos-ified faction who have not resembled loyalists with red crosses over their aquillas for four editions now) need to be moved into the Space Marine codex", we meet again.

Refute the points presented or admit you're wrong.

It's cool how exceptionally hostile the tone is of this to my semi-joking facetious message about 'enemies'.

But in general I have some basic problems with the logic that for whatever reason renegades and legions can't be in the same book.

It's very clear the Red Corsairs aren't just 'normal Space Marines but renegade', for example and they haven't been like that since what, 3rd ed (which has a few images of normal Space Marines with their Imperial icons crossed out with red paint).

They make full use of Daemons, Possessed, Daemon Engines, Huron wears a plethora of Chaos Symbols and is an open sorcerer. I don't think the Marine codex needs to have all these entries (or really any more than it already does). If you want to play 'standard' non-Chaos aligned renegades you can just use the existing Space Marine codex as is, since its perfectly suitable for fielding the Tyrant's Legion.

And what about all the Traitors who turned like, before M.41? Plenty of those guys are full on renegades on par with the existing Legions. The Corpus Brethren, for example, sound like they're pretty messed up dudes - as do pretty much every other SM chapter who took a trip into the Eye.

Incidentally I don't understand how the Legions wouldn't have access to grav guns. Isn't material captured all the time in war? I mean they had access to multi-meltas and plasma cannons in the Heresy - do these all suddenly stop working? Why not just make it they can have less of these than Loyalists can.

This fixation on faction identity seems kinda silly. I'm glad other wargames don't fall into this rabbit hole (another major benefit of historicals, imo).

 GaroRobe wrote:
I just realized that there are basically no normal chaos space marines (multipart) kits that have a melee right hand.

Chaos space marines? Nope. (Except the Shadowspear unit champion.)

Havocks? Nope.

Chosen? Nope.

The new warpsmith has the axe in his right hand, and raptors have right hand options (but the claws on the vambraces are pretty raptor specific and the hand is pre attached to the arm.)

I assume its GW being lazy and its much easier to design one hand to hold a gun and the other to hold a melee weapon, but it's super infuriating for conversions.

The dual knife legionnaire is like the first right handed melee weapon option in ages...

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Am I the only one who's pretty happy about the Renegade traits? It looks like I might finally be able to effectively field an effective Crimson Slaughter/Brazen Beasts army. I am sad that it looks like we might be losing the Purge's and Flawless Host's cool rules.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
I was expecting the warp time change because they've just done the same for both Craftworlds and Harlequins. So, that at least suggests CSM can be OP while losing some toys.

P.S. We will be losing double shoot I'm 99% certain.

Honestly, if they were a company that believed in consistency they should probably go back and change it for TSons. But that wouldn't make much sense in the current meta and of course the main reason is GW are complete hacks.

Do thousand sons have a lot of melee units that greatly benefit from warptime and charge? Eldar and basic CSM have units that can get a lot more mileage out of it.

 Deathwolf wrote:
What would the hypothetical difference be between running Fallen with dedicated rules and running them as Legionnaires using whatever rules they have for Renegade traits?

I’m curious because I have 30K DA and am thinking of running them as Fallen for some 40k stuff too.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Hmmm if the Eldar Codex can have 3 armies in 1 folded into it, I think our dex can have rules for renegade chapters, traitor guard, and the remaining legions that don't get their own books.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I'm ready for the nearly 5 year wait for this book to end with a paradigm shift nerfing them after the trend has been power creep.

I'm ok with that, I want a deep book with options that encourage different play styles without being the tournament goers choice of book with a 65+% winrate week 1. Much rather end up near the GSC end of the scale.

I think they did the GSC dex really well, capturing the essence of the faction, and making baseline most things usefull in specific ways.
However i do think that GW needs to add in more customizability to the GSC HQ's, its a bit depressing to see a primus and him always being the same.

Customizability is also something that chaos marines need. and on that front since a certain dex of a certain edition it hasn't looked good.

The sort of space that used to be filled by converting, before chapterhousim went too far and no-model-no-rules was expanded to no-option-no-rules.

Eh, depends on what customization options we're talking about. Want your Chaos Lord to have a bike? Convert it. Want that squad of Chosen to have Daemonic Flight? Convert some jump packs or wings on them. Want that squad of CSM to have Infiltrate, Furious Charge, or Tank Hunters? Pay the points. Not all of the customization options required converting. But we lost those as well. They can bring those back without breaking their silly "no model, no rules" restriction. Those don't require any more modeling than things like Deadly Pathogens or Legion Command.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Is there a plastic power armored Chaos Lord currently available that isn't armed with a thunder hammer and plasma pistol?

Nope, unless you count the Termie one.

Uh-oh spaghettios.

This is good for new players. As we now, new players are mentally deficient and if they had options they might make a mistake.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2x210 wrote:
So the Night Lords relic is for the DP with wings only.

So just to clarify the Night Lords, you know the legion who is known for using jumppacks and not using demons as much as other legions cannot equip lords with jump packs and have a relic made for demon princes only......

I hate this company so much

Well, they've been ignoring the fluff for Night Lords for the past 14 years, while still putting it in the fluff section of every codex, so not surprising.

But.....the "source" is now saying that their version of the playtest rules is the earliest version. So all of this has to be taken with extra now. There's no telling how much of this all could have changed since then.

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
While I do not understand why the jump pack shall be removed, I have to say that limiting the options to what comes in the box seems like a valid step. It prevents people from chasing down and spam the one most efficient option from the kit. At least from the playgroups I know there are some players who always try to max out a squad while being annoyed how to get the option X times. I am not sad that those complains/issues to get the right bits will end, although this also sets the expectation that GW will get the balance right for the new setups

drbored wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
While I do not understand why the jump pack shall be removed, I have to say that limiting the options to what comes in the box seems like a valid step. It prevents people from chasing down and spam the one most efficient option from the kit. At least from the playgroups I know there are some players who always try to max out a squad while being annoyed how to get the option X times. I am not sad that those complains/issues to get the right bits will end, although this also sets the expectation that GW will get the balance right for the new setups

And I thought blood reaper was being heavy handed !

I can understand limiting, say, a space marine squad's options to one plasma gun if only one comes in the box to make it so you don't have to worry about buying a second box to have that extra plasma gun...