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 Rydria wrote:
One of the only things I'm unhappy about from the rumours is that Noise Marines don't benefit from emperor's children legion traits and are always elites.

I understand it's for internal balance but it feels weird as hell when Death Guard and Thousand sons get their iconic troops as troops. At least emperor's children appear to be actually badass in melee now the potential 2+ to hit with even heavy melee weapons in cqc is really spicy.

We don't know that. The leaks are far from comprehensive and may well be missing the proviso that the Emperor's Children move Noise Marines from elites to troops/that Noise Marines benefit from the Emperor's Children trait. I fully expect EC to get Noise Marines as troops.

 Togusa wrote:
Has there been any word on Chaos Bikes yet? Potential for a new kit? New rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
posted an update:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page-41

No offense, but this is some poster on a website I've never heard of before. How do we know this poster didn't make all of that up? Where is their credibility on display?

How verify?

Welcome to the wonderful world of rumours, Togusa - the whole point is that we can't know whether this is correct or not until the book comes out.

And I've never seen a statement start with "No offense, but..." that wasn't intended to be offensive.

It's hard to tell sometimes, on a Reddit thread I asked about one of the leaks last fall and people got really offended because "How dare I question the great leaker." When in reality I hadn't done much of anything with 40K in almost a full year and didn't know anything at all about the leaks at that time.

But I was unsure if this was the person who leaked all the Eldar and Tau stuff or someone else.

Seemed like a valid and non-offensive question to me, fwiw.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
One of the only things I'm unhappy about from the rumours is that Noise Marines don't benefit from emperor's children legion traits and are always elites.

I understand it's for internal balance but it feels weird as hell when Death Guard and Thousand sons get their iconic troops as troops. At least emperor's children appear to be actually badass in melee now the potential 2+ to hit with even heavy melee weapons in cqc is really spicy.

We don't know that. The leaks are far from comprehensive and may well be missing the proviso that the Emperor's Children move Noise Marines from elites to troops/that Noise Marines benefit from the Emperor's Children trait. I fully expect EC to get Noise Marines as troops.

Noise Marine's will still be troops and benefit from the Legion trait just like Plague Marines and Rubics are currently. The only reason Noise Marines are still in the codex is apparently because EC are still in the book and need access to them.

How do you feel about Lucius? Having 9X attacks at S5/AP-3/Dam 3, he's averaging 10 hits and potentially 30 damage starting turn 3. Not counting another 3 extra attacks he might gains from Stimulated by Pain, for potentially 12 attacks! Delivery might still be a problem though with all the firepower around to pop Rhinos currently.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
One of the only things I'm unhappy about from the rumours is that Noise Marines don't benefit from emperor's children legion traits and are always elites.

I understand it's for internal balance but it feels weird as hell when Death Guard and Thousand sons get their iconic troops as troops. At least emperor's children appear to be actually badass in melee now the potential 2+ to hit with even heavy melee weapons in cqc is really spicy.

We don't know that. The leaks are far from comprehensive and may well be missing the proviso that the Emperor's Children move Noise Marines from elites to troops/that Noise Marines benefit from the Emperor's Children trait. I fully expect EC to get Noise Marines as troops.

I think I worded my post wrong I meant that it is the only thing I'm worried about, since the opening post looked rather absolute with the always elites thing, but it could just be in general for everyone else.

I generally expect the worst for things, I still remember them forgetting to allow them as troops in early 8th.

 Sersi wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
One of the only things I'm unhappy about from the rumours is that Noise Marines don't benefit from emperor's children legion traits and are always elites.

I understand it's for internal balance but it feels weird as hell when Death Guard and Thousand sons get their iconic troops as troops. At least emperor's children appear to be actually badass in melee now the potential 2+ to hit with even heavy melee weapons in cqc is really spicy.

We don't know that. The leaks are far from comprehensive and may well be missing the proviso that the Emperor's Children move Noise Marines from elites to troops/that Noise Marines benefit from the Emperor's Children trait. I fully expect EC to get Noise Marines as troops.

Noise Marine's will still be troops and benefit from the Legion trait just like Plague Marines and Rubics are currently. The only reason Noise Marines are still in the codex is apparently because EC are still in the book and need access to them.

How do you feel about Lucius? Having 9X attacks at S5/AP-3/Dam 3, he's averaging 10 hits and potentially 30 damage starting turn 3. Not counting another 3 extra attacks he might gains from Stimulated by Pain, for potentially 12 attacks! Delivery might still be a problem though with all the firepower around to pop Rhinos currently.

I think it is more overdue than anything, he's one of the characters whose lore never matched up with the table top he's supposed to be this feared duellist, but nearly every rules incarnation of him has been on the weakside.

If the rumours are true he's going to be a monster against heavy and elite infantry with 2/3 wounds. You could theoretically use him to babysit noise marines or other shooting units, providing them with his reroll 1 aura, then if anything comes close you unleash him upon them.

God specific spells
T 4+ inv
N -1 to hit
S 5+ fnp

You can't charge after warp time

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
God specific spells
T 4+ inv
N -1 to hit
S 5+ fnp

meh? I hope that's on entire units, and not just individual models, Even then I'm not terribly impressed unless you can take multiple sorcerers and pile them all up on a doom stack. Other people just get to walk around with those traits always on for free.

You can't charge after warp time

The secret to not getting nerfs is not talking about the good things. Warptime is one of the few things from the entire codex that I've ever heard people talk in a positive manner, so of course it got the chop.

One wonders what the point of Warp Time will be then... ?

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
God specific spells
T 4+ inv
N -1 to hit
S 5+ fnp

So Nurgle and Slaanesh are....just the same? Well that's boring.

You can't charge after warp time

Oh, for sake. That's not the same as the Thousand Sons version. At least tell me ours at least works on vehicles.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
God specific spells
T 4+ inv
N -1 to hit
S 5+ fnp

So Nurgle and Slaanesh are....just the same? Well that's boring.

You can't charge after warp time

Oh, for sake. That's not the same as the Thousand Sons version. At least tell me ours at least works on vehicles.

Yeah... I was feeling it coming when the did the same for the Eldars. Still, they are far more mobile the CSM in the first place. And as you've said TS kept it. Design shift between codexes ?

As for the spells themselves: They are very... vanilla ?

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
And as you've said TS kept it. Design shift between codexes?

This is the paradigm shift I was worried about, where they decide that what they've been doing hasn't been working so make big changes to the newer Codices whilst still leaving the ones that were the problem completely alone. I was worried it would be Chaos or Tyranids that began this shift. Seems it's actually closer to Genestealer Cults, at least for the Jervisification of weapons/options, got worse in the Eldar book (lots of equipment turning into strats), and will only get worse with Chaos (Chosen/Terminator weaponry, having the same powers/abilities doing different things, etc.).

Don't worry, in about a years time GW will release a series of about a dozen books ala Psychic Awakening that are going give a bunch of updates to the factions that got books before the mid-edition shift, just in time to invalidate half their contents with the launch of 10th next summer.

I was expecting the warp time change because they've just done the same for both Craftworlds and Harlequins. So, that at least suggests CSM can be OP while losing some toys.

P.S. We will be losing double shoot I'm 99% certain.

Honestly, if they were a company that believed in consistency they should probably go back and change it for TSons. But that wouldn't make much sense in the current meta and of course the main reason is GW are complete hacks.

EightFoldPath wrote:
I was expecting the warp time change because they've just done the same for both Craftworlds and Harlequins. So, that at least suggests CSM can be OP while losing some toys.

P.S. We will be losing double shoot I'm 99% certain.

Honestly, if they were a company that believed in consistency they should probably go back and change it for TSons. But that wouldn't make much sense in the current meta and of course the main reason is GW are complete hacks.

Do thousand sons have a lot of melee units that greatly benefit from warptime and charge? Eldar and basic CSM have units that can get a lot more mileage out of it.

I find being able to double move (2 x 5"!) my 27 WS2 S5 AP3 D2 attacks pretty good... some of the time.

But, yes TS don't have the 12" move missile units that CSM have, Enlightened being able to charge after moving 24" is nice but not devastating.

Still very valuable for taking control of objectives. There was that Aussie TS player who ran lots of 10 Rubrics in Rhinos with the "combo" being 3" disembark, 6" move, 6" move, charge, sit on objective. Shoot the Rhino and it became 3" disembark, 6" move, free 3" from bringing a guy back, 6" move, charge, sit on objective.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
I was expecting the warp time change because they've just done the same for both Craftworlds and Harlequins. So, that at least suggests CSM can be OP while losing some toys.

P.S. We will be losing double shoot I'm 99% certain.

Honestly, if they were a company that believed in consistency they should probably go back and change it for TSons. But that wouldn't make much sense in the current meta and of course the main reason is GW are complete hacks.

Do thousand sons have a lot of melee units that greatly benefit from warptime and charge? Eldar and basic CSM have units that can get a lot more mileage out of it.

I'd argue the Rubric Terminators are able to benefit greatly from it

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
And as you've said TS kept it. Design shift between codexes?

This is the paradigm shift I was worried about, where they decide that what they've been doing hasn't been working so make big changes to the newer Codices whilst still leaving the ones that were the problem completely alone. I was worried it would be Chaos or Tyranids that began this shift. Seems it's actually closer to Genestealer Cults, at least for the Jervisification of weapons/options, got worse in the Eldar book (lots of equipment turning into strats), and will only get worse with Chaos (Chosen/Terminator weaponry, having the same powers/abilities doing different things, etc.).

So, basically a "reverse 5th edition", with all of the ridiculous codexes with tons of rules coming out first, and the later codexes being more "streamlined", and less powerful. I feared the same. It would be a hell of a thing to do to CSM in the same year that marks the 20th anniversary of the release of 3.5. Sounds like something gw would do.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
And as you've said TS kept it. Design shift between codexes?

This is the paradigm shift I was worried about, where they decide that what they've been doing hasn't been working so make big changes to the newer Codices whilst still leaving the ones that were the problem completely alone. I was worried it would be Chaos or Tyranids that began this shift. Seems it's actually closer to Genestealer Cults, at least for the Jervisification of weapons/options, got worse in the Eldar book (lots of equipment turning into strats), and will only get worse with Chaos (Chosen/Terminator weaponry, having the same powers/abilities doing different things, etc.).

So, basically a "reverse 5th edition", with all of the ridiculous codexes with tons of rules coming out first, and the later codexes being more "streamlined", and less powerful. I feared the same. It would be a hell of a thing to do to CSM in the same year that marks the 20th anniversary of the release of 3.5. Sounds like something gw would do.

I dont think that the 20th anniversary of any particular codex is a thing GW even notices. Game editions or particular models sure, but not a single codex that some players are particularly attached to.

Using crappy CSM and Tyranid Codex to mark the change of style would be... let's go with 'something we're used to.'

Are they any rumors on what will happen to the Fallen yet? Will it just be a keyword for Legionnaires?

Tyranid rumors are suggesting they're getting rid of their double move + charge mechanic as well, so I'm not too surprised to see that change for Warp Time.

It'll turn it from a must-have spell to a maybe-take spell. Board control is always handy, but maybe some other spells will take the spotlight.

for some reason I cannot unseen that the slaanesh mark is still weak in some way
bye mutilators



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deathwolf wrote:
Are they any rumors on what will happen to the Fallen yet? Will it just be a keyword for Legionnaires?

idk, but probably nothing, remember the awful and awkward index of white dwarf. But I don't see the fallen using regular chaos units, more of a range limited divergent faction. (as the thousand sons, but less units) Obviously that's almost unthinkable for gw, too busy doing vanilla faction releases, it's been a while since we got the last subfaction exclusive character.

Yriel_71 wrote:
for some reason I cannot unseen that the slaanesh mark is still weak in some way
bye mutilators

Eh...its alright. Fighting first is still valuable, especially in a melee heavy army like CSM. Also many EC players have armies based around exploiting it. So, it's go to still have access to it despite our legion trait changing. I'd have rather had something like: advance and charge, or re-rolling charges, or some bonus to advance and/or charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deathwolf wrote:
Are they any rumors on what will happen to the Fallen yet? Will it just be a keyword for Legionnaires?

Fallen are probably just gone until they either get a codex supplement or a White Dwarf get you by codex.

What would the hypothetical difference be between running Fallen with dedicated rules and running them as Legionnaires using whatever rules they have for Renegade traits?

I’m curious because I have 30K DA and am thinking of running them as Fallen for some 40k stuff too.

 Deathwolf wrote:
What would the hypothetical difference be between running Fallen with dedicated rules and running them as Legionnaires using whatever rules they have for Renegade traits?

I’m curious because I have 30K DA and am thinking of running them as Fallen for some 40k stuff too.

My solution of Renegades and Traitor Chapters being folded into the SM codex fixes that issue. But no we GOTTA keep them separated.

Hmmm if the Eldar Codex can have 3 armies in 1 folded into it, I think our dex can have rules for renegade chapters, traitor guard, and the remaining legions that don't get their own books.

Are the eldar folded factions though getting a decent treatment? Afterall corsairs were an awesome list.
Same with traitor guard and if they were a separate list i reckon we would have heard by now about that.

 Deathwolf wrote:
What would the hypothetical difference be between running Fallen with dedicated rules and running them as Legionnaires using whatever rules they have for Renegade traits?

I’m curious because I have 30K DA and am thinking of running them as Fallen for some 40k stuff too.

I'd wait and see for the Codex.
If you want to prep for the release, there will be custom Warband rules along the lines of Chapter/Craftworld/Clan so you could just use those and the only thing you'll lose out on is Cypher but will then gain access to the entire CSM roster, as IIRC Fallen from their WD Index are restricted to the Fallen unit, Cypher, Sorcerers, and Rhinos.
That being said, if you aren't taking anything that couldn't be represented with Codex: SM then just use that instead. That is what inevitably, the discussion around Renegade Chapters comes down to, do you want to play CSM or SM because you aren't going to get all the toys from both.

I'm ready for the nearly 5 year wait for this book to end with a paradigm shift nerfing them after the trend has been power creep.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Are the eldar folded factions though getting a decent treatment? Afterall corsairs were an awesome list.
Same with traitor guard and if they were a separate list i reckon we would have heard by now about that.

I definitely don't see us getting anything like the R&H list if Traitor Guard is "folded into" the CSM dex. They could maybe do something similar to the old LatD list. But a R&H style list would require a separate codex. I'm worried that the rumored Traitor Guardsmen models will get a similar treatment as Corsairs got: "Here's some models, you can use them, but don't expect them to work as their own thing."

 nathan2004 wrote:
Hmmm if the Eldar Codex can have 3 armies in 1 folded into it, I think our dex can have rules for renegade chapters, traitor guard, and the remaining legions that don't get their own books.

To be fair, Ynarri should work via being like how Inquisition works. Small ass codex to supplement a few others with just some HQ entries, bodyguard. And that's it.