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Just as the title says I am coming up with a tourny army with 2-3 forgeworld units. These are not fliers or super heavies, just variants. Nothing broken like Infernus shells. I've only played in 1 tourny and this didn't come up. But how often would I show up at a tourny and be told I cannot use particular models?

It's generally not Forgeworld models that aren't allowed; it's Forgeworld rules, which happen to be for Forgeworld models, that are disallowed.

And this is because of Forgeworlds repeated repetition that they do not playtest the rules they just make them up for fun. This leads to broken crap like the Infernus Shell, and near broken stuff like the Ultra Siren prince, Big Bloody, and the Trygon (oh, you like getting hit by 30 gaunts from the backfield, here have two).
It also leads to the worthless Baneblade, and other IG superheaviers, the near worthless titans and a bunch of other suck.

Posted By DarkHellion on 07/09/2006 4:46 PM
And this is because of Forgeworlds repeated repetition that they do not playtest the rules they just make them up for fun. This leads to broken crap like the Infernus Shell, and near broken stuff like the Ultra Siren prince, Big Bloody, and the Trygon (oh, you like getting hit by 30 gaunts from the backfield, here have two).
It also leads to the worthless Baneblade, and other IG superheaviers, the near worthless titans and a bunch of other suck.

 

 

i take it you have not read any of the material from FW

they are fully legal according to GW and the GW game design team signs off on them(which is why the mortis dread with plasma cannons or assault cannons was nixed, the design team said no).

superheavies, flyers and titans have always been relegated to special games,  it even notes that in the FW rules

everything else is just a variation of standard equipment and legal to use as long as the persons running said tournament are ok with it.. every RTT i have played in allow  FW models and there rules.  it adds some variety to the game IMO. besides they are usually overpriced in points (and cash) and restricted in deployment. so your not really gaining any advantage like some people may believe.

 

as a quick example tempests are cool arse land speeders, but i would rather take 9 tornado's in my ravenwing than 3 tempests(max any army can take) because it is far more effective.

 

 

Posted by mughi3 on 07/09/2006 9:12 PM
... they are fully legal according to GW and the GW game design team signs off on them...

And exactly where has Andy Hoare or any other member of the Design Studio gone on the record with such a statement?

Don't ever show up to a tournament fielding Imperial Armor Ruled units without first having verified with the judge that you could.

Doing so without having a back-up list in possession could be seen as "If I don't ask, I can't be told No." sort of cheating

Ask. Then verify again

"And exactly where has Andy Hoare or any other member of the Design Studio gone on the record with such a statement?"

The front of the books say that they're legal and do not require permission, and considering that they're rulebooks printed by GW, only a dullard such as your self would try to find a way that they weren't. That and it is patently absurd that a member of the design team would have to tell us that a rulebook that GW made is legal. Stop being so obtuse Ghaz.

On an unrelated note, most tournaments don't allow FW stuff because they think it is overpowered, when in fact most FW stuff is overcosted and completely useless. Only a few items (Cyclops Demo Vehicles, Infernus Shells) stick out as useful things to take. Everything else is just 'fun', but no substance.

BYE

And is the front of the Forgeworld book a direct quote from Andy Hoare or GW's Design Studio? I didn't think so...

hmm has ghaz ever been to the GW main office in england where FW is located(and the game designers as well)  has ghaz ever seen the display case of models that were specificly rejected by the desing team like the 2 plasma cannon arm mortis dread?

not that it is even relevant since the FW books are legal GW rulebooks and valid for game play as was already noted.

 

 

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 07/10/2006 10:46 AM
"And exactly where has Andy Hoare or any other member of the Design Studio gone on the record with such a statement?"

On an unrelated note, most tournaments don't allow FW stuff because they think it is overpowered, when in fact most FW stuff is overcosted and completely useless. Only a few items (Cyclops Demo Vehicles, Infernus Shells) stick out as useful things to take. Everything else is just 'fun', but no substance.

BYE

I always figured that aside from someone trying to sneak an Imperator in (Titan? no, no, this is my... bulky and strangely immobile son, who likes to watch games by standing on the tables) it was also to cut down the burden on the judges by having them also have to know all potential variant rules that could come into play, as well as trying to stay on top of all the regular stuff. 

"And is the front of the Forgeworld book a direct quote from Andy Hoare or GW's Design Studio? I didn't think so..."

The book itself is a rulebook produced by Games Workshop. Since when do we need a foreword from Andry Hoare to tell us which books are 'official' and which books aren't. The book is 100% legal in every game you play, and requires no permission. The Imperial Armour books are no different to any Codex - a good luck proving otherwise Ghaz you dolt.

BYE

Posted By Ghaz on 07/10/2006 10:51 AM
And is the front of the Forgeworld book a direct quote from Andy Hoare or GW's Design Studio? I didn't think so...

 

Do you play semantics or warhammer?

Please add to the conversations.  This isn't the first time you decided someone else's wording lost an argument.

And perhaps you should add something yourself instead of playing armchair moderator. I sure haven't seen you add anything to this conversation. Maybe you should follow your own advice first.

My statement still stands. Where has a member of the DESIGN STUDIO ever said that Forgeworld does not require your opponent's consent? And I don't care what the Forgeworld books say either unless they are also written by the DESIGN STUDIO. Also, a case full of Forgeworld miniatures doesn't mean anything.

So once again, is there any place where the DESIGN STUDIO has gone on the record as saying that Forgeworld does not require your opponent's consent? Unless you can find such a quote, there will always be doubt.

Ghaz,

Exactly who is officially in the "design studio"? Is there a current roster I can refer to?

As far as I can tell, Warwick Kinrade (IA author) is in the "design studio", and he has said that IA rules are as official as any other 40K rule.

Let's not forget about the issue of availability. If I were to live in Baltimore, with the Battle Bunker 20 minutes away, I would definitely have easy access to Forge World models and rulebooks. As it stands, most people can't get Forge World models OR rules because local stores don't carry them.

Let's not forget about the issue of availability. If I were to live in Baltimore, with the Battle Bunker 20 minutes away, I would definitely have easy access to Forge World models and rulebooks. As it stands, most people can't get Forge World models OR rules because local stores don't carry them.

. . .except by the internet/mail.

And by that standard are Dark Eldar models not official anymore?

I don't see Warwick Kinrade listed in the credits of anything other than the Forgeworld books. Forgeworld is hardly the Design Studio.

Forgeworld says they're legal. The Design Studio has been mum on the subject. Therefore as I've stated, there is room for doubt on the matter.

Posted By yakface on 07/11/2006 3:30 AM

Let's not forget about the issue of availability. If I were to live in Baltimore, with the Battle Bunker 20 minutes away, I would definitely have easy access to Forge World models and rulebooks. As it stands, most people can't get Forge World models OR rules because local stores don't carry them.

. . .except by the internet/mail.

And by that standard are Dark Eldar models not official anymore?


***I've found that there are, however, ALOT! of players out there (beginners around the age of 18-20) who just don't have a credit card or a computer....yes, I know it's hard to believe, but it's true.

 

I guess the real question here is "Should there be such a large 'chasm' dividing the newbs from the vets?"  The vets have a large pool of resources ($$, online access, car, etc) to draw from, while the newb may not necessarily have all those things.  So should such lofty requirements be placed on the newb to compete in an adequate fashion?   

I depend on Forgeworld units to have a decently looking and competitive army.  The standard rules that GW puts up on their website for 40K RTTs used to say that Imperial Armor units were valid.  Unfortunately, they recently changed it so that it says Imperial Armor units may not be used.  Now, most tournament organizers just copy the rules that GW has up on their website for their own RTTs, purely because they don't want to write them up by themselves. 

As a consequence, nearly every RTT I have looked up since the change in the GW rules has left that line in, that Imperial Armor units may not be used.  I'm pretty bummed about it, because now the default is that Forgeworld units aren't allowed in a tournament environment.  I'm sure, though, that if I called up the tournament organizer ahead of time and asked it would be acceptable, but I've been told one thing on the phone before only to show up to a tournament with an illegal list on the actual day, it's very frustrating (just ask Lord Sutekh ).

And yes, I believe this has all come about because GW thinks Forgeworld is an unfair advantage against younger, inexperienced players.  However, it still does not explain why Grand Tournaments don't allow Forgeworld units, as those should be the best of the best.  GTs should use Cities of Death rules for some of the battles, too, if I had my way. 

- Oaka

Some of the Forgeworld super units were clearly intended for large (2500+ point) games, and would be unbalanced in 1500/1850 games (or would have absurdly weak rules given the size of the model.) Unfortanutely the dev team hasn't deemed it worth their while to go through Imperial Armour and decide which units are unsuitable for competitive play at 1500/1850 and have gone for the easy option; banning everything. Tornament organizers tend to follow GW's lead to avoid problems and lengthy debates, which is understandable really.

If you do get a ruling from a tournament organizer, get it in writing (email printed out) as people do have a habit of forgetting what they said earlier on the phone, they're only human.

The argument about whether the Imperial Armour books claim to be part of the 40k canon or not is irrelevant. In tournament play, the organizers decide what is legal. They can ban what they like, as nobody is forcing you to attend. In friendly games, you cannot force anyone to play against you. If they don't like the rules you are using, they can always play someone else.

Ultimately its a case of lobbying the tournament organizer (in a concise and reasonable way) to allow the use of IA. However, it will be difficult to convince them that IA's reputation of being unbalanced is unjustified, and that allowing IA units isn't going to upset more players than it pleases.

"Some of the Forgeworld super units were clearly intended for large (2500+ point) games, and would be unbalanced in 1500/1850 games (or would have absurdly weak rules given the size of the model.)"

Well isn't it good then that the big FW units, ie. things with structure points, require a 2nd FOC and that requires atleast 2000 points before you can do that, so you won't see them in 1500/1850 point games.

BYE

every RTT i have played in allow FW models and there rules.

Well, as you can see by my sig, I love RTTs, and with the exception of Adepticon, none of them have allowed Forge World models. And if you check the Adepticon boards, they are talking about if they should keep it that way.

It might be a regional thing though.

And I find it odd that for "official rules" they are not allowed at GTs, Gamesdays or any other GW RTT.

I find it odd that for Official Rules, Space Wolf 13th Companies, Lost and the damned, Cults of Pleasure, Daemonic Legions, and many other lists aren't allowed at UKGTs.

I find it odd that we are even having this conversation.

Imperial Armor rules are rules published by Games Workshop for Warhammer 40,000. Unless the rules are denoted as being optional (or only allowed with your opponent's permission), they are simply rules for 40K. No more no less.

Tournaments have always had the power to choose what rules and army lists they want to allow. Just because some or all tournaments don't use certain rules doesn't make them any less valid as rules for the game.

Posted by yakface on 07/12/2006 2:32 AM
Unless the rules are denoted as being optional (or only allowed with your opponent's permission), they are simply rules for 40K. No more no less.

And why shouldn't we assume the other way around? That they're optional unless noted otherwise?

I guess the main rulebook is optional then...

Posted By skyth on 07/12/2006 11:53 PM
I guess the main rulebook is optional then...

The main rulebook and the codices are mandatory to play the game.  Forgeworld is not.  Why should optional rules not require your opponent's consent?

Posted By Ghaz on 07/12/2006 10:47 PM

Posted by yakface on 07/12/2006 2:32 AM
Unless the rules are denoted as being optional (or only allowed with your opponent's permission), they are simply rules for 40K. No more no less.

And why shouldn't we assume the other way around? That they're optional unless noted otherwise?

Because they are rules published by Games Workshop for Warhammer 40,000. Unless specified otherwise, why would they be anything less than official than any other rules put out by Games Workshop?

 

 

 

Yak/Ghaz, I think a main difficulty you are having is over the fact that Forgeworld, while divisionally different than the main 40K design staff, makes 40k products/rules, amongst other things. This has gotten them into some trouble in the past, such as their spat with GW US, or the insanely ridiculous fluff armour thicknesses offered in IA books, or the occational insipidly over/under powered stuff that comes out.
The main problem is that while the group is quite obviously a GW group, what status they have to define the rules/canon of other GW divisions' products is very sketchy. To make an analogy, WotC used to produce both M:tG and the Battletech card game. If the battletech card game made a promotional M:tG card, and then stated that the card would be legal in type 2 for all time, we have the problem of an outside division source making an inside division decision that should normally be left up to the development team of the other product.
What Ghaz is trying to get at is that unless a member of the 40K design team has stated that Forgeworld books are legal, then we get an impasse of that despite clear intent for the rules to be used in 40k, it sets a very poor precedent in that it allows outside divisions to make decisions for the main 40K design team without their consent. While I do not believe this is a real problem, on principle it feels very dirty.

As for why many tournaments don't allow them is that Forgeworld representatives have said in the past (I wish I had the quote) that they do not care to playtest or to make a great deal of attempts to balance the products they produce. While they are getting better, the products where at one time designed for fun play, and not tournament use, and led to the general imbalance seen. They also have the minor problems that they IIRC do not go through the same continuity checks and balance/play checks that the main 40K units go through, and as thus have a very shaky canonicity.

hellion quite a bit has changed, i don't know how old that quote is, but it runs counter to the last few imperial armour books