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Posted by yakface on 07/13/2006 4:57 AM
Because they are rules published by Games Workshop for Warhammer 40,000. Unless specified otherwise, why would they be anything less than official than any other rules put out by Games Workshop?

Which is still not a reason to automatically assume they do not require your opponent's consent. They are still not the 'core rules'.

I just think that it is strange that Forgeworld acknowledges GWs existence, but GW does not acknowledge Forgeworlds.<?

 

You can't go to the US GW website and see any Forgeworld products, and they are never mentioned.

 

You go to a GW store and you can't see any of their products (except the in the very few battle bunkers) etc.

 

Can anyone point to anything by GW that talks about Forgeworld other than in the Forgeworld books? Beside the part where you can use Forgeworld models to represent items already found in codexes for tournament play.

 

And I think this is one of the reasons why FW sould be banned for RTTs. Because it is hard to get ahold of the rules and models. That is why no one ever gets to use them, or play against them because very few people have ever seen an Imperial Armor book. It might be different in the UK, but in America, their is a huge disconnect between Forgeworld and GW.

White Dwarf has been advertising FW's new releases.

Being a Guard player I find it surprising you don't own any FW. Every Guard player I know (which is quite a few) has at least one FW product. Ordering online must be intimidating for your group.

Hard to get ahold of Dark Eldar models any more also.  Should they be banned?

 

Last I saw the US GT rules permitted FW nmon-flyers/superheavies so I don't know where you're getting this "theire is a huge disconnect bewteen Foregweold and GW thing.

Last I saw the US GT rules permitted FW nmon-flyers/superheavies so I don't know where you're getting this "theire is a huge disconnect bewteen Foregweold and GW thing.

Are you sure? I just checked the site for the Chicago GT and here's what it said about forgeworld:

Forge World models may be used to represent selections from a Codex. Imperial Armor rules may not be used.

Here's the link: http://gamesday.us.games-workshop.com/GamesDay2006/Chicago_2006/Tournaments/Chicago_Tournaments.htm

Being a Guard player I find it surprising you don't own any FW. Every Guard player I know (which is quite a few) has at least one FW product. Ordering online must be intimidating for your group.

I have many armies and all of my rhinos have Forgeworld extra armor as well as the Forgeworld doors. When I need it I take a drive down to the LA Battle Bunker and buy it. I have everything from Eldar fighters and Bombers for BFG, to the brass etched eagles, to my lucky Thousand Sons dred. Heck, I was tempted to do a Red Scorpions army, but I had to remember that I hate space marines.

But IMO there is a big difference between using Forgeworld models for items out of the codex, and the Imperial Armor books. I have no desire to bludgon my opponents with a Baneblade using rules that no one knows.

Hard to get ahold of Dark Eldar models any more also. Should they be banned?

#1. You use to be able to buy them in the GW stores until they needed the shelf space for armies that did not look like crap, and that people wanted to buy.
#2. You can still order them from Mail Order, the Online Store, and they are still in the giant bits calalogue.
#3. And they are still in articles in The White Dwarf.

 

Nobody:

Och you're right!

I hang my head in shame

I've been at this too long. Somewhere along the way that changed.  Oh well.

 

To the DE. You can also order FW online.  FW also sends out newletters and emails, which I don't get concerning DE from GW.

 

But IMO there is a big difference between using Forgeworld models for items out of the codex, and the Imperial Armor books. I have no desire to bludgon my opponents with a Baneblade using rules that no one knows.

You make it sound unethical to use the Imperial Armor rules. The main advantage of a model like a Baneblade is physiological, it like most of the IA tanks are point-sinks. The only unethical part would be to use any rule set without letting my opponent see them.

I just think that it is strange that Forgeworld acknowledges GWs existence, but GW does not acknowledge Forgeworlds.<?

 

You can't go to the US GW website and see any Forgeworld products, and they are never mentioned.

huh?

last i checked the US GW page has a link to the FW homepage. (and the new conglomerated black library/warp artifacts site as well)

and why would they need to post FW stuuf and eat up extra bandwidth when you can just follow the link to the FW site?

 

And I think this is one of the reasons why FW sould be banned for RTTs. Because it is hard to get ahold of the rules and models. That is why no one ever gets to use them, or play against them because very few people have ever seen an Imperial Armor book. It might be different in the UK, but in America, their is a huge disconnect between Forgeworld and GW.

double huh?

i live in america as well.

hard to get? not at all, you just have to buy them like any other gw item

they are as close as a mouse click,  phone call, snail mail or drive to an official GW store away.

 

i am one of at least 4 people locally who have an IA book, between the 4 of us we have every book. i also have 4 divergent forgeworld units i have used extensively.

land raider helios, land raider prometheus, land speeder tempest, and a plasma armed dreadnaught.

ast i checked the US GW page has a link to the FW homepage.

From GW US's website you have to click on GW worldwide, and then to the Forgeworld site. So if 3 clicks away si I will say it again...You can't go to the US GW website and see any Forgeworld products, and they are never mentioned.

Perhaps you can supply me with a link so I can see anything with Forgeworld items on the US GW's site. (Besides a pic with a FW model in the background).

i live in america as well.

What city do you live in? GW stores do not carry them, just the battle bunkers. And they are a click away...but they come from England.

And here is another thought...if some items in the FW books are undercosted, (And if people are using them in a tourney they are), 40k should be a game of skill and strategy, not just to see who can spend the most $$$ on resin. And yes, I realize that this is an expensive hobby, and there is a bit of that aspect even in the lower point games.

Money is a huge factor in what you can field no matter whether you're getting Forgeworld or basic GW. What's the difference between the guy who spends $150 for a FW Trygon or the guy who spends $150 for 3 units of termies with 6 assault cannons? I don't see one. GW's basic rules aren't balanced, so does fielding Forgeworld units make that big of a difference? This hobby is already a luxury. You have to spend a lot of money to play the game at all, no matter what you're fielding. Having more money will give you more options, that's obvious, but sending that money to Forgeworld rather than straight to GW is not going to give you a huge advantage over people who don't want to buy Forgeworld.

@DarkHellion: Your M:tG/Battletech analogy falls flat on its face because Wizards has the DCI, a separate department from all their games that decides what's legal and where. As GW has no such thing, it's up to the Organizers/Event Staff to decide. Sorry, there's absolutely no comparison there.

@Blackmoor: Actually, several non-Battle Bunker GW stores DO carry FW products in the US or are willing to order them for you without P&P. Some of these offer them as regular additions to their lines, or as special limited time offers every couple of months. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it universal. In fact, if I remember correctly, there's a non-Battle Bunker GW store in Maine that keeps a regular amount of most FW on hand at all times, but then that's what I was informed about 3-4 years ago, so they could have stopped.

Actually Plat, you just reinforced my point, which is that GW has no direct policy of canonicity in rules, other than the chapter approved stamp, which is often poorly applied.
The problem with Forgeworld is that it is very hard to determine what to make of them, because they are a seperate company in a company who print for 3 or so different game systems, and while not quite 3rd party, are obviously not main division, and to my knowledge GW has never given a good statement or indication one way or another of the true canonicity of it, despite the fact that they have done so for Black Library Publications and Chapter Approved articles.

Posted By Blackmoor on 07/16/2006 7:32 PM
And they are a click away...but they come from England. 

So do Drop Pods, should they be banned due to "inaccessability" or "high cost". Yes, the rules for them are more readily available (and their legality is not questioned), but the official models themselves are no easier to acquire than the IA books.

My point? Accessability is not a factor. Many of us, if not most, have purchased at least one 40k item online. And in this respect, IA is no different. The internet has provided us with a true global marketplace. By viewing this post, you have proven that you have access to this marketplace and that accessability is no longer an issue for you.

And here is another thought...if some items in the FW books are undercosted, (And if people are using them in a tourney they are)

 

That's a poor conclusion to draw.  Check out the rules for Kroot Knarloc Riders in the Taros Campaign Book and then tell me whether I'm a smart guy for taking a squad of six to tournaments.  But why would I do it?  They're cavalry with sticks in a game that involves orbital bombardments!  My opponents freak out about them because they have no idea what they do, but a single volley of bolter fire and it's "they're not that bad at all".

 

I want to use all my Forgeworld models at a tournament, because of all the time and $$$ I spent on purchasing, converting and painting them.  It would be much better if these units were legal for tournaments, because my alternative is that I have to use them to represent something else.  It's pretty difficult to use knarloc riders and great knarlocs as any other units.  I wrote a list up that had the knarloc riders as shining spears and the great knarlocs as wraithlords, to which my roommate responded "that's pretty lame".

 

So what should be the solution, letting me use some rare units that aren't overpowered, or having to explain to you at the beginning of the game the whole chicken-jetbike-chicken-wraithlord-BBQ-chicken-Eldar-mcnugget representation?

 

- Oaka

 

 

 

This must be a regional thing. In the Chicagoland area we have 15-16 tournaments a year and all but one organizer allows forgeworld models/rules and IA units. We have been doing this for as long as I can remember, even before the Bunker was built in Downers Grove.

As for Adepticon, no matter what is said on our boards I am confident Forgeworld and IA materials will always be allowed. Mass/Structure points and flyers have always been an exception (though I never knew why).

Accessability isn't a good arguement because Drop Pods are not easy to get and they are very common. The rules being hard to get is not a good arguement because what newbie can lug around every codex ever made just in case they play them. Overcost/undercosted units is not a good arguement because their are those in the regular codex's.

FW does add variety and spice and as a veteran gamer I find myself looking more and more into playing against armies I have not seen a dozen times over.

Forgeworld is that it is very hard to determine what to make of them, because they are a seperate company

WTF?

uh dude you do realise that FWs address is the same as the GW corporate offices address?

they are a division within GW owned and controlled by GW, all thier publications published by GW, in the same building as the main office no less.

there was an american company back in the day called "forgeworld" that was a seperate contracted company that was seperate from GW. but the current FW has gone out of thier way to tell us that they are in no way connected to the old US FW company. .

Drop pods have nothing to do with the argument because they are in a codex (official GW cannon), and most people just make their own drop-pods. Like I said, I use forgeworld models all of the time to represent things that are in the codex. <?

 

We are not debating the models; we are talking about the legality of the rules from the IA books.

 

And if the Forgeworld rules are cannon, why are they banned from every official GW tournament?

 

uh dude you do realize that FWs address is the same as the GW corporate offices address?

 

Good! Then it will be easy for you to provide a link from an official GW website, or Page # from a GW book where they discuss the use of Forgeworld rules/models? (Note: Game Workshop, not Forgeworld).

 

I find it odd that the only place that says that they are official rules is in the IA books, but they why doesn't GW say it as well? If they are official rules, GW can just back them up, but they don?t. It is like declaring yourself King. You can do it, but without official recognition by the body that determines such things, you will not be recognized as such.

Blackmoore, if they weren't canon, as you are suggesting, then there would be no need to ban them in the first place, as they would then fall under the "Rules listed as Unofficial or Opponent's Consent". However, since they do not require opponent's consent, it needs to be specifically stated that they are not being used in a tournament. I could ban Space Marines from each and every tournament I run, does that mean Space Marines are no longer canon in my area? No, it just means that they can't be used FOR THAT TOURNAMENT. They remain, however, legal and fully usable outside of that tournament. Just like Forgeworld.

Plat, that isn't how canon works. Canon has a hierarchy, and we have been given one for Games Workshop products, which is Codex fluff, Black Library, other fluff. Or for game rules Codex, Main book. Neither of these include Forgeworld publications, which is the problem. I am not saying that there isn't clear intent of their legality, but without a statement by the main division that can determine legality and canonicity we are left guessing. It's a problem of GWs generally lighter lax mood on rules than many of us very legalistic American players like.

P1: Imperial Armor books carry the Games Workshop Brand Logo.

P2: Imperial Armor books (IA2 to be particular) clearly states that IA units are as official as those found in codexes for the game of Warhammer 40,000.

Conclusion: Imperial Armor rules are official rules for the Games Workshop game: "Warhammer 40,000".


Look, one can make any number of assumptions as to why Imperial Armor rules are not fully official, but those are simply assumptions.

We can assume that Warwick is not part of the official 40K design team, but we don't know that for sure.
We can assume that Forgeworld is enough of a seperate division from the internal studio that it's rules are somehow less playtested or less official, but we don't know either of those things for sure.
We can assume that limited availibility of models and/or use of the IA rules in tournaments is somehow a sign of those rules "un-officialness", but again we cannot know that for sure.


The only things we know for sure is the argument I have stated above.

Imperial Armor books carry the GW logo, they say they are used for Warhammer 40,000 and the books themselves denote the rules as "official".

If it does all three of those things (I don't know as I rarely read anything but the rules in the books, and don't own any myself) then for games rules then it seems they are part of the official rules.

I've kind of lost track of what's being argued now, but I think that the main reason why you usually see a 'no imperial armor/FW rules' clause is because of the perception of FW models being overpowered (really, titans and super heavies are the first thing that spring to my mind when FW is brought up), whether that's true or not, and, unlike 'regular' armies, there is a smaller chance that the judge will be famliar with the FW models, and their rules.  There would also probably be less copies of the FW rules floating around, should the judge need to take a look at the printed rules, and for whatever reason, the owning player doesn't feel like sharing (or is looking something else up, or whatever).

If someone showed up with a Tyranid army (lets pretend the points are big enough) bringing a Trygon, Malonthrope, and a barbed biotitan, and neither judge nor oppenent were famliar with their functioning, it could slow things down even more (and then there's always the possibility that the Tyranid player might try to slip one by...)

Actually, Blackmoor, that's exactly how canon works, it's either canon or it's not. There's no heirarchy, that would be legality, importance, and precedent. Different concepts. For example: the books of the Bible. There's no heirarchy of canon, they either are, or they aren't. Some books may be more important than others, but they're all still canon.

Edit: Using your examples:
Codex Fluff, Black Library Fluff, others:
This is a matter of officiality. If GW rules them all as canon, then they're canon. One is not more canon, but more official.

Codex, Rulebook:
This is a matter of precedent and importance. They're both canon(as stated by GW), but in certain situations, one sets precedent or is more important than the other. Neither is more canon.

If someone showed up with a Tyranid army (lets pretend the points are big enough) bringing a Trygon, Malonthrope, and a barbed biotitan, and neither judge nor oppenent were famliar with their functioning, it could slow things down even more (and then there's always the possibility that the Tyranid player might try to slip one by...)

People keep using these examples when they aren't particularly valid. Any item with mass/structure points requires a second force organization chart to be used. That is almost certainly only going to happen in a game/tournament where the organizers are purposely allowing such behemoths.

So yeah, a Malanthrope can be dropped on an opponent unexpetedly, but so what? I can't tell you how many games I've played against opponents that don't have any idea how certain units in my army (or even my whole army) work.

As long as you bring the rules along with you, no one should have a problem. It is no more confusing than a codex unit.

Plat, stop misquoting me as Blackmore, and yes, canon can have levels. Look at the canon policies of the Roman Catholic Church (Augustinian Code), Paramount pictures, Lucasfilms, or the Canon levels attributed to fluff by GW themselves. Canon of various levels overrides lower canon in the event of a conflict. It's a very simple system that is the basis of almost every open Science Fiction universe in existance, such as 40K, Star Wars, Star Trek, Bolo, Halo, etc etc.

DarkHellion, Platuan4th,
Either way, where is it officially stated that one 'level' of material/canonicity is more important than another. I don't think that such a distinction exists anywhere. Either it has the GW logo on it or it doesn't. Either it says its official or it doesn't.


from the wiki Canon(fiction) article:
"The canon of Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000 universe is officially held to be extended to all works produced under an official Games Workshop licence..."

Of course any wiki article cannot be taken as hard fact at face value, but if this is correct the question becomes "does Forgeworld have an official Games Workshop licence?" Since their publications include the GW logo, IMO it is safe to assume that the answer is yes, thereby making any FW publication part of the official canon.

Well, the fluff canonicity and the rules canonicity are actually, from all that I have seen, disconnected in 40K, just as in all game universes. Codex rules obviously override fluff for the purpose of the game. Of course this is beside the point.
And as I said above, from what Yakface has stated, GW seems to have given Forgeworld a stamp of approval, thus making it legal.

Yak, IA4 actually has the Trygon(Mass 1) and both versions of Hierodule(Mass 2) listed as Heavy Support choices, not seperate detachments. Both are still Gargantuan Creatures.

And if the Forgeworld rules are cannon, why are they banned from every official GW tournament?


I don't know. Why are/were the Catachan Jungle fighting rules not allowed in GT's when they were in their own codex?