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I'd pay for the Cryptek before I'd pay for the Spyder. The Ark is already one of, if not the most durable vehicle in the army. I'll take +1 to the RP and the 5++ over the repair from the Spyder. Nothign stopping you form doing both though, and the ability to block psychic powers may be necessary depending on your local meta.

My first goal is the Cryptek/Ghost Ark combo though - two chances a turn to RP a unit on 4+ is ridiculous.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.

The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.

GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I'd pay for the Cryptek before I'd pay for the Spyder. The Ark is already one of, if not the most durable vehicle in the army. I'll take +1 to the RP and the 5++ over the repair from the Spyder. Nothign stopping you form doing both though, and the ability to block psychic powers may be necessary depending on your local meta.

My first goal is the Cryptek/Ghost Ark combo though - two chances a turn to RP a unit on 4+ is ridiculous.

Oh yeah, they synergize quite well. I'd imagine the GA, warrior and cryptek being the core of most necron armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joeproton wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.

The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.

GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.

Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause
Well, there goes my formation then
Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.

Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I'd pay for the Cryptek before I'd pay for the Spyder. The Ark is already one of, if not the most durable vehicle in the army. I'll take +1 to the RP and the 5++ over the repair from the Spyder. Nothign stopping you form doing both though, and the ability to block psychic powers may be necessary depending on your local meta.

My first goal is the Cryptek/Ghost Ark combo though - two chances a turn to RP a unit on 4+ is ridiculous.

Oh yeah, they synergize quite well. I'd imagine the GA, warrior and cryptek being the core of most necron armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joeproton wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.

The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.

GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.

Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause
Well, there goes my formation then
Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.

Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.

I played a small 1k point game last night and took an overlord. I had him off on one side of the board with a unit of immortals with carbines. He buffed the carbines to 5+ for extra wounds with MWBD and he popped off the res orb on a unit of warriors that was down to 2 models all the way across the board. Really helped swing the tempo.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joeproton wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.

The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.

GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.

Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause
Well, there goes my formation then
Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.

In that case it might be better just to have a single, large warrior block in front of the ark.

Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.

If you res more than 35 points of models with it's use, it makes up its points. That's 3 (call it 4) warriors or 3 Immortals.

If you're running Silver Tide, it might make sense to throw one in. But if it only brings back an extra 1 or 2 dudes, it's pretty much bunk.

Requizen wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joeproton wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.

The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.

GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.

Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause
Well, there goes my formation then
Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.

In that case it might be better just to have a single, large warrior block in front of the ark.

Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.

If you res more than 35 points of models with it's use, it makes up its points. That's 3 (call it 4) warriors or 3 Immortals.

If you're running Silver Tide, it might make sense to throw one in. But if it only brings back an extra 1 or 2 dudes, it's pretty much bunk.

Yeah ok, I can see that. It would probably be better on high value units though, like destroyers and the elites.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joeproton wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So I've been thinking about Ghost Arks, and I think you should have at most 1 ark per 2-4 units of warriors.

The reasoning being that as the repair buff is only 3", you'd need to have the warriors pretty close to the ark, and the most number of decently sized warrior squads that a single ark could buff is 4; two in front, 2 on the sides.

GA only buffs RP once a turn but it does it at the end of movement so it can be less of a stick in the mud and more of a repeatable Orb with 12" move.

Ooooh nooo I missed the "single unit" clause
Well, there goes my formation then
Still strong, but not as strong as I thought it would be.

In that case it might be better just to have a single, large warrior block in front of the ark.

Yeah, not sure why you would get a res orb right now. It does affect other units, which is nice, but its a 35 point one use item. That's...pretty bad.

If you res more than 35 points of models with it's use, it makes up its points. That's 3 (call it 4) warriors or 3 Immortals.

If you're running Silver Tide, it might make sense to throw one in. But if it only brings back an extra 1 or 2 dudes, it's pretty much bunk.

Yeah ok, I can see that. It would probably be better on high value units though, like destroyers and the elites.

Yes that's true, you only need to bring back one Shieldguard to make the points back, or two Warscythe ones.

Can't use it on Praets because they don't have <Dynasty> lol. These guys look a bit worse every time I look at a rule, they really need to just go off by themselves and make something happen.

Indeed, the praets got shafted hard due to the keyword change. They have good stats and equipment, but as you can't really buff them they don't synergize with the army.
Their stalker, at least, provides a buff to all necrons. Which makes sense, because the praets are not supposed to be part of any particular dynasty.

Any thoughts regarding Overlord vs. Destroyer Lord?

I think I'll invest in Ghost Arks and give the Res Orbs a pass. Spamming Quantum shielding seems like a really viable build IMO. If you just take infantry and vehicles with QS you mostly nerf all the big guns you're opponent laid out mucho points for. That same build also does a great job putting a eff-tom of dakka on the board, which seems like the right way to go for 8th.

So spammed QS and Spammed Crypeks/Arks/Infantry. That's what I'm thinking right now as a base.

 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts regarding Overlord vs. Destroyer Lord?

It depends.
If you are running destroyers you'd want a destroyer lord, as he can keep up with them and his buff is destroyer specific, and his statline is pretty nasty as well.
Whilst the overlord buff does affect destroyers, you won't be able to apply it that often due to the difference in their speeds.
If not, an overlord would be a better all rounder choice. Not as fast or heavy hitting, but he can march with the rest of the army and hand out his buff, which affects every necron of the same dynasty.

If you are going to use the destroyer lord as a buff dispenser, I would just give him the hyperphase sword. Its the cheapest option and its not a bad melee weapon.

Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb. I can't really see paying for a Ghost Ark to accompany a fast wing force like Destroyers, and the orbs one-shot might be a good compromise. Full squads of six is the way to go though, IMO anyway, with ot without the pair of upgraded heavy dudes.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb. I can't really see paying for a Ghost Ark to accompany a fast wing force like Destroyers, and the orbs one-shot might be a good compromise. Full squads of six is the way to go though, IMO anyway, with ot without the pair of upgraded heavy dudes.

Yeah, the res orb would work on a d lord. Partly because of how pricey destroyers are now.
Just one successful roll and you made the orb's points back.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb.

But . . . but . . . my phylactery!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb. I can't really see paying for a Ghost Ark to accompany a fast wing force like Destroyers, and the orbs one-shot might be a good compromise. Full squads of six is the way to go though, IMO anyway, with ot without the pair of upgraded heavy dudes.

Yeah, the res orb would work on a d lord. Partly because of how pricey destroyers are now.
Just one successful roll and you made the orb's points back.

Crypteks and Arks is probably still the way to go for the main infantry, but yeah, the Orb's probably almost an auto-buy for a Destroyer wing, now that I think about it, if you go that route.

My issue there is that 6 Destroyers (2 heavy) with a Res Orb Lord is like 580pts. For 24 wounds. Granted you're T5 and 3+, but still. That's a lot of points for 24 wounds where a lot of armies are going to very good at stripping wounds off T5-7 stuff. The Destroyers are about 480 pts for 18 wounds. They put out a lot of dice, but from a points for durability standpoint I think they're not top-drawer. You could get nearly 30 Immortals or 40 Warriors for the same points. It's not bad, not by any means, but it's not an auto include either.

So 6 Destroyers and a Lord, or 25 Warriors (or 18 Immortals), a Cryptek and a Ghost Ark? That's a tough decision.

Well, keep in mind that you aren't just paying for damage. You are paying for range and mobility as well.

A destroyer unit will always be firing their max potential at 24"

Warriors will only be firing their max potential at 12" range.

Not to mention that destroyer + lord has both rerolls to hit and wound, which increases their combat effectiveness by some degree.
I would actually use destroyers as anti-tank / mc units, due to the multiple wounds they can deal. Against T8 units they wound on 5s, while warriors would need 6. Primaris marines will just hate them.

Whats wrong with using both, anyway? You still need troops in your army, so you're going to need warriors and immortals anyway.

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of reasons to take them. Range and multi-wound capability not the least among them. My worry is that squads of, say, three, will get wiped off the board asap this edition. If you want durability at all you probably need to go to five or six and add the Lord, at which point it's very pricey.

Reroll '1' Th and wound, not all failed rolls. Still very cool, but not exactly the same.

If you work that unit on the flanks and try to keep them out of range of the whole enemy gunline they should be plenty tough.

On a related topic, has anyone figured out why we're supposed to be excited about Wraiths this edition? No RP, no LM, so-so HtH, I'm just not seeing it. So far I'd invest in Destroyers pretty much every time. Am I missing something?

I suspect they'll introduce something at some point that buffs canopteks. I notice they have the canoptek keyword, but nothing that interacts with it.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, there are lots of reasons to take them. Range and multi-wound capability not the least among them. My worry is that squads of, say, three, will get wiped off the board asap this edition. If you want durability at all you probably need to go to five or six and add the Lord, at which point it's very pricey.

Reroll '1' Th and wound, not all failed rolls. Still very cool, but not exactly the same.

If you work that unit on the flanks and try to keep them out of range of the whole enemy gunline they should be plenty tough.

On a related topic, has anyone figured out why we're supposed to be excited about Wraiths this edition? No RP, no LM, so-so HtH, I'm just not seeing it. So far I'd invest in Destroyers pretty much every time. Am I missing something?

Slightly disagree. 3+/W3/T5 isn't going to get insta wiped from the board, especially since with long range and high speed they'll likely be sitting in cover the whole time for a 2+. Unless they're shooting multiple Lascannons at the squad, but there has to be a counter for everything (and you can hang a Cryptek with them for a 5++). According to the Price to Damage chart a few pages back, both Destroyer units are among the most points-efficient models against multi-wound enemies, so I think they're likely just going to be good fits, unless the meta goes full ham on hordes.

Wraiths are above-average all around melee units. They're not good against hard to crack targets - anything with high toughness, a 2+ save, or both, is going to laugh at them. But against most things in the game they'll be fighting at 3+/3+/AP-1, with multiple attacks and are hard to crack for most troops. They'll fill a similar role to before - they'll take apart pretty much any Infantry unit they come against that isn't rocking Terminator armor or multi-damage weapons, and even those will find them hard to shift.

They're also pretty good against vehicles, come to think of it - sure they'll struggle to hurt anything with T7 or more, but they can just tie it up and prevent it from shooting as well. Unless it has fly or is a punchy Dreadnaught-like, I suppose, but most Imperial or Chaos vehicle will get stuck against them. And if you kill one while the Wraiths are surrounding it, you might kill the riders off.

A lot of the points efficient stuff in 8th is weight of fire rather than multi-wound causing high S stuff. An army with good weight of fire shooting will indeed wipe a unit of three destroyers without too much of a problem. Add a couple of destroyers and that changes a little. My main point was that small units of Destroyers are probably sub-optimal, at least if I'm right about where I think the meta will settle out after people start getting games in.

Another context issue is what the rest of the army looks like. If you're running RP/Cryptek/Ark hordes up the middle, guys will quickly figure out how hard that shizz is to kill, at which point any softer targets will get a disproportional weight of fire. Destroyers make that list when fielded in small numbers IMO, hence my concern. In a different build where all the available targets are more equally kill-able it won't be as big an issue.

I have no issues with the Destroyers' damage output at all. That part's fine.

Yeah, I should be doing some test games this weekend. Will try out Destroyers among other things.

Here's the thing that confuses me... Zahndrekh's new Counter Tactics states that it happens "At the beginning of your opponent's turn".

Now, if this is targeting a character that also has an ability that happens at the begging of their turn, who's ability goes off first?

For instance, if it were a game of Zahndrekh vs. Zahndrekh, who has the "My Will Be Done" ability which occurs at the start of the turn, but the other Zahndrekh has the ability to choose a character and negate his aura abilities, is it negated, or does the active player use their "At the beginning of the turn" abilities first?

Also, Orikan's Master Chronomancer states that it gives a 5++ to friendly SAUTEKH INFANTRY... does that mean that Orikan ALSO gets this 5++, or would I have to field a Cryptek next to him so they can give each other Chronomancer?

SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:
Here's the thing that confuses me... Zahndrekh's new Counter Tactics states that it happens "At the beginning of your opponent's turn".

Now, if this is targeting a character that also has an ability that happens at the begging of their turn, who's ability goes off first?

For instance, if it were a game of Zahndrekh vs. Zahndrekh, who has the "My Will Be Done" ability which occurs at the start of the turn, but the other Zahndrekh has the ability to choose a character and negate his aura abilities, is it negated, or does the active player use their "At the beginning of the turn" abilities first?

There's actually a sidebar on p178. If two or more abilities would activate at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets to decide what order they activate in.

However, does My Will Be Done actually count as an aura? I thought Aura abilities were ones that affected all units of a certain type within X" of the model? MWBD only affects a single unit. Are you sure it's an aura?

 vipoid wrote:

SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:
Here's the thing that confuses me... Zahndrekh's new Counter Tactics states that it happens "At the beginning of your opponent's turn".

Now, if this is targeting a character that also has an ability that happens at the begging of their turn, who's ability goes off first?

For instance, if it were a game of Zahndrekh vs. Zahndrekh, who has the "My Will Be Done" ability which occurs at the start of the turn, but the other Zahndrekh has the ability to choose a character and negate his aura abilities, is it negated, or does the active player use their "At the beginning of the turn" abilities first?

There's actually a sidebar on p178. If two or more abilities would activate at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets to decide what order they activate in.

However, does My Will Be Done actually count as an aura? I thought Aura abilities were ones that affected all units of a certain type within X" of the model? MWBD only affects a single unit. Are you sure it's an aura?

I'm not sure on what qualifies as an Aura. Does the wording "ALL units within X inches" declare an aura, or can simply the wording of "Select A unit within X inches". I've gone thinking that any ability that states "within X inches" makes it an aura.

Has anyone run the numbers on flayed ones? I really want to run a max size unit to tie up front lines with some wraiths to go hunt characters but I'm pretty new and not sure if FO are actually just terrible or not.

2000 points really does not feel like a lot when you want to run 20 man units of anything.

SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:
Here's the thing that confuses me... Zahndrekh's new Counter Tactics states that it happens "At the beginning of your opponent's turn".

Now, if this is targeting a character that also has an ability that happens at the begging of their turn, who's ability goes off first?

For instance, if it were a game of Zahndrekh vs. Zahndrekh, who has the "My Will Be Done" ability which occurs at the start of the turn, but the other Zahndrekh has the ability to choose a character and negate his aura abilities, is it negated, or does the active player use their "At the beginning of the turn" abilities first?

There's actually a sidebar on p178. If two or more abilities would activate at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets to decide what order they activate in.

However, does My Will Be Done actually count as an aura? I thought Aura abilities were ones that affected all units of a certain type within X" of the model? MWBD only affects a single unit. Are you sure it's an aura?

I'm not sure on what qualifies as an Aura. Does the wording "ALL units within X inches" declare an aura, or can simply the wording of "Select A unit within X inches". I've gone thinking that any ability that states "within X inches" makes it an aura.

Just made this:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727401.page#9404081

Updated the offense spreadsheet available at

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1M7tyL0_Ki19gpDOdTMRRTK74FQf4ZKATITPpFT4rWSU

added presentable sheet where the calculation columns are hidden

Added my will be done toggle

added color coding so you can quickly spot the best units for a given task

Added number of targets

added target points

Added volleys to kill based on damage done and models in unit, efficiency is nice, but sometimes you need that unit dead asap and this will tell you which unit can do it the fastest.

added ratio of attackers points to defenders points, this is a per volley calculation telling you how many volleys it will take for the unit to earn it's points back shooting at the target. 1 is amazing 3 is average and more than 3 means that the attacking unit is unlikely to earn it's points back from shooting at the unit.

Fixed Flayed ones not rerolling to wound

High power Blast from the doomsday ark will now get the correct number of shots shooting at units of 10 or larger

Destroyers now correctly reroll ones to hit

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Hmm. The destroyer lord is the one place I might invest in a res orb. I can't really see paying for a Ghost Ark to accompany a fast wing force like Destroyers, and the orbs one-shot might be a good compromise. Full squads of six is the way to go though, IMO anyway, with ot without the pair of upgraded heavy dudes.

Yeah, the res orb would work on a d lord. Partly because of how pricey destroyers are now.
Just one successful roll and you made the orb's points back.

Crypteks and Arks is probably still the way to go for the main infantry, but yeah, the Orb's probably almost an auto-buy for a Destroyer wing, now that I think about it, if you go that route.

My issue there is that 6 Destroyers (2 heavy) with a Res Orb Lord is like 580pts. For 24 wounds. Granted you're T5 and 3+, but still. That's a lot of points for 24 wounds where a lot of armies are going to very good at stripping wounds off T5-7 stuff. The Destroyers are about 480 pts for 18 wounds. They put out a lot of dice, but from a points for durability standpoint I think they're not top-drawer. You could get nearly 30 Immortals or 40 Warriors for the same points. It's not bad, not by any means, but it's not an auto include either.

So 6 Destroyers and a Lord, or 25 Warriors (or 18 Immortals), a Cryptek and a Ghost Ark? That's a tough decision.

I think that's why I lean to the Doomsday Ark over the Heavy Destroyers for that reason. Doomsday can trade fire with Lascannon batteries at range all day, even though it's D3 shots against 3 Heavy Destroyers...as long as all three survive. And if you need all hands to the deck to repel a swarm of Genestealers or whatever, then it's packing the flayer firepower of ten warriors on a M12" platform.

Doomsday is less mobile when shooting the big gun for sure, but it's whole board range, has an extra point of AP for blasting through any kind of possible cover, and there is no Jump-Shoot-Jump, so I see you/you see me rules.

You can stick them towards a corner, close off plasma drop points and the like with some Scarab Bases, and fire away. Bring a Triarch Stalker with Heavy Gauss for the reroll Destroyers get. 2 DoomArks, 1 Stalker for similar pricepoint to the 6 Destroyers + Res Orb Lord.
.

On the spreadsheet warriors should be 120pts for ten not 130 and tomb blades with gauss blasters have to pay for 2 blasters not just 1 so they cost 126pts for 3 instead of 99.

Yeah, but the same problem as before applies; they aren't great when there's a lot of los obscuring terrain, like in an urban environment. Doomsday deals a lot of damage, but only if your opponent wanders into its line of fire.