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2018/07/30 23:52:17
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
I have a friend who is really struggling with his DA lists to a point where he's almost giving up on the game and I'd like to give him a hand.
He is in a tough spot, he doesn't have the energy nor the allowance to really invest in new models at the moment and both me and another friend that usually play with him have quite a good collection already (Death Guard, Chaos Demons and Necrons).
What I know he has:
- Assorted Tacticals, mostly with plasma guns and missile launchers.
- Most HQ options on Power Armour.
- A few Ravenwing Bike Squads, we usually let him proxy weapon loadouts.
- Black Knights on Bikes, he loves these guys.
- A couple HQ choices on Bikes.
- Two Land speeders.
- Sammael on his Plasma bike
- 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks
- A few Deathwing Termies
- A few of the CC Deathwing Termies
- A few scouts
I'm looking for general direction on how to help him out. I think he feels very frustrated by losing expensive models to Smite and other kinds of Mortal wounds. Is there anything in DA arsenal that can help with that?
Last saturday we where playing a 1000pts narrative event and he got trashed by a mobile Eldar List and a Chaos Demon list with 4 Demon Princes wreaking havoc with their smites. He had a large bike force but I feel like he must be mishandling the bikers as when I field them they feel great. Any advice and pointers would be welcome, I'll go ahead and dig on the thread for tips. Thanks in advance.
I have a friend who is really struggling with his DA lists to a point where he's almost giving up on the game and I'd like to give him a hand.
He is in a tough spot, he doesn't have the energy nor the allowance to really invest in new models at the moment and both me and another friend that usually play with him have quite a good collection already (Death Guard, Chaos Demons and Necrons).
What I know he has:
- Assorted Tacticals, mostly with plasma guns and missile launchers.
- Most HQ options on Power Armour.
- A few Ravenwing Bike Squads, we usually let him proxy weapon loadouts.
- Black Knights on Bikes, he loves these guys.
- A couple HQ choices on Bikes.
- Two Land speeders.
- Sammael on his Plasma bike
- 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks
- A few Deathwing Termies
- A few of the CC Deathwing Termies
- A few scouts
I'm looking for general direction on how to help him out. I think he feels very frustrated by losing expensive models to Smite and other kinds of Mortal wounds. Is there anything in DA arsenal that can help with that?
Last saturday we where playing a 1000pts narrative event and he got trashed by a mobile Eldar List and a Chaos Demon list with 4 Demon Princes wreaking havoc with their smites. He had a large bike force but I feel like he must be mishandling the bikers as when I field them they feel great. Any advice and pointers would be welcome, I'll go ahead and dig on the thread for tips. Thanks in advance.
- First things first: you guys shouldn't use top-level lists like those vs a guy without his prime assortment of lists as well. But don't go too easy on him; just use TAC lists hwile he struggles to find what works best. When he gets the good things DA can offer, you guys can level up the challenge.
- That sorted out, suggest him to make one of the Land Speeders a Ravenwing Talonmaster and the other one Sammael on Sableclaw. These 2 are character with less than 10W (so they're protected if behind other units), are very fast, pack quite the punch and help his army a lot (the former allows your units to re-roll 1s to wounds AND ignore enemy cover; the latter re-roll 's to hit or all hits if the beneficiary is Ravenwing as well).
- Termies aren't really good in this edition. The best use for them is to deep strike behind enemy lines to secure an objective/linebreaker.
- The missile launcher Tacticals could become a unit of Devastators, while the Plasma ones could work as Company Veterans (really good for their price); Tactical Marines per se are pretty bad. Tell him to buy enough Scouts to have at least 3x5 of them.
Stick the Razorbacks with the Plasma Vets as their method of transportation (give them the Assault Cannon turrets).
- Ravenwing Bikes are good, if somewhat a bit costly. If you give them plasmaguns, they perform better than Black Knights. They are good with Flamers as well (can even move, turboboost and fire without needing the stratagem). On the same tone, Black Knights are good as well, but shouldn't be the core of his army (too costly).
- Librarian on Bike is a very good HQ. Aversion is usually regarded as the best power, while both Mind Wipe and Trephination work well if you stack Leadership-reducing factors.
If he has Ezekiel among the on-foot HQs (Turmiel from the Dark Vengeance box works as well), he's pretty good too.
- If he has Azrael (or the Balthasar rom the Dark Vengeance box), he's the prime option for Warlord. Put everything that likes to fire from afar around him. If he has a Lieutenant (there's no particular model for that - he needs to convert one), stick him around the blob too.
Those would be my tips for him. Oh, and whenever possible, tell him to get a Dark Talon, a Chapter Ancient (again, have to be converted) and 2x10 Hellblasters
I have a friend who is really struggling with his DA lists to a point where he's almost giving up on the game and I'd like to give him a hand.
He is in a tough spot, he doesn't have the energy nor the allowance to really invest in new models at the moment and both me and another friend that usually play with him have quite a good collection already (Death Guard, Chaos Demons and Necrons).
What I know he has:
- Assorted Tacticals, mostly with plasma guns and missile launchers.
- Most HQ options on Power Armour.
- A few Ravenwing Bike Squads, we usually let him proxy weapon loadouts.
- Black Knights on Bikes, he loves these guys.
- A couple HQ choices on Bikes.
- Two Land speeders.
- Sammael on his Plasma bike
- 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks
- A few Deathwing Termies
- A few of the CC Deathwing Termies
- A few scouts
I'm looking for general direction on how to help him out. I think he feels very frustrated by losing expensive models to Smite and other kinds of Mortal wounds. Is there anything in DA arsenal that can help with that?
Last saturday we where playing a 1000pts narrative event and he got trashed by a mobile Eldar List and a Chaos Demon list with 4 Demon Princes wreaking havoc with their smites. He had a large bike force but I feel like he must be mishandling the bikers as when I field them they feel great. Any advice and pointers would be welcome, I'll go ahead and dig on the thread for tips. Thanks in advance.
- First things first: you guys shouldn't use top-level lists like those vs a guy without his prime assortment of lists as well. But don't go too easy on him; just use TAC lists hwile he struggles to find what works best. When he gets the good things DA can offer, you guys can level up the challenge.
- That sorted out, suggest him to make one of the Land Speeders a Ravenwing Talonmaster and the other one Sammael on Sableclaw. These 2 are character with less than 10W (so they're protected if behind other units), are very fast, pack quite the punch and help his army a lot (the former allows your units to re-roll 1s to wounds AND ignore enemy cover; the latter re-roll 's to hit or all hits if the beneficiary is Ravenwing as well).
- Termies aren't really good in this edition. The best use for them is to deep strike behind enemy lines to secure an objective/linebreaker.
- The missile launcher Tacticals could become a unit of Devastators, while the Plasma ones could work as Company Veterans (really good for their price); Tactical Marines per se are pretty bad. Tell him to buy enough Scouts to have at least 3x5 of them.
Stick the Razorbacks with the Plasma Vets as their method of transportation (give them the Assault Cannon turrets).
- Ravenwing Bikes are good, if somewhat a bit costly. If you give them plasmaguns, they perform better than Black Knights. They are good with Flamers as well (can even move, turboboost and fire without needing the stratagem). On the same tone, Black Knights are good as well, but shouldn't be the core of his army (too costly).
- Librarian on Bike is a very good HQ. Aversion is usually regarded as the best power, while both Mind Wipe and Trephination work well if you stack Leadership-reducing factors.
If he has Ezekiel among the on-foot HQs (Turmiel from the Dark Vengeance box works as well), he's pretty good too.
- If he has Azrael (or the Balthasar rom the Dark Vengeance box), he's the prime option for Warlord. Put everything that likes to fire from afar around him. If he has a Lieutenant (there's no particular model for that - he needs to convert one), stick him around the blob too.
Those would be my tips for him. Oh, and whenever possible, tell him to get a Dark Talon, a Chapter Ancient (again, have to be converted) and 2x10 Hellblasters
Thank you! A very comprehensive summary and enough for me to dig my teeth into (I also play wolves so...)
We don't usually run competitive broken lists against him, but he complains too much about new models (DG drones and new characters particularly) as it feels like they are made more powerful just to push models out the shelves. To top that Marines are a good matchup for my necrons (neg AP is always good against marines) so he can be put into a difficult situation.
I do think that there isa lot of value on his army he just needs to find the potential and unlock it. Thanks again, I'll report back here with the results!
Ravenwing Black Knights can do some great work. I took a large squadron as the core of my army at a 1250 tourney and they did well in all but one game. Run them with Sammael and a Talonmaster and use Speed of the Raven and Weapons from the Dark Age stratagems along with supercharging when the target warrants it.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2018/08/02 03:15:04
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
The only times I've used Black Knights they have disappointed me. Usually they end up eating a bunch of Smites or something, which could mean I'm playing them wrong. They just don't seem to be worth 46 points per model to me. Maybe I'm being too aggressive with them, but honestly isn't that what they are for (really aggressive moves using Speed of the Raven)? I've had much better luck with Scout Bikes and plasma Inceptors in my Fast Attack slots. At least the Inceptors can hide in reserves until a target presents itself (like after the enemy screening units have been cleared).
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
2018/08/02 04:50:06
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
ZergSmasher wrote: The only times I've used Black Knights they have disappointed me. Usually they end up eating a bunch of Smites or something, which could mean I'm playing them wrong. They just don't seem to be worth 46 points per model to me. Maybe I'm being too aggressive with them, but honestly isn't that what they are for (really aggressive moves using Speed of the Raven)? I've had much better luck with Scout Bikes and plasma Inceptors in my Fast Attack slots. At least the Inceptors can hide in reserves until a target presents itself (like after the enemy screening units have been cleared).
If you take away one plasma exterminator from plasma inceptors they cost almost the same as black knight ~ 42 points for plasme d3 shots at the same 18 inch range.
Black knights cost only 4 points more for almost the same stats except they can move up to 20 inches gain an invulnerable save against shooting,and have better melee, i think they are well worth 46 points
I think the main problem is that they are on the table turn one, making them vulnerable to long range attacks if you dont hide them somewhere
Dark talons could be a good way of eating smites if you keep them close to enemy psykers
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/02 04:55:00
2018/08/02 19:58:37
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
Agree that turn 1 vulnerability is an issue until you get moving and Jinking. I also agree that Smite spam etc is a problem. Orks are also an issue. Stuff in power armour and high wounds targets, though, are prime prey for Black Knights. A Dark Talon helps with crowd control, as does the Talon Master.
I really like their mobility, though, which can catch opponents off guard.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2018/08/03 02:27:30
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
While it might be nice to have more Darkshroud coverage, I think it is a case of diminishing returns. Having a second Darkshroud means I have that many points less of stuff that actually kills things. I'd rather not lose that much firepower just to have a little more protection. One is usually sufficient.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
2018/08/03 23:22:45
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
Against any decent opponent and with average terrain, the dark shroud won't last beyond the first turn. The nice thing is it will usually take more firepower to remove the dark shroud than it would to remove most of our threat units and is cheaper so it can be beneficial to add one. Adding two however will often just make the opponent ignore the dark shrouds and directly target our threats. Since we have even less firepower after diverting points to the shrouds, this is far more damaging to us.
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
2018/08/04 03:33:38
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
Maelstrom808 wrote: Against any decent opponent and with average terrain, the dark shroud won't last beyond the first turn. The nice thing is it will usually take more firepower to remove the dark shroud than it would to remove most of our threat units and is cheaper so it can be beneficial to add one. Adding two however will often just make the opponent ignore the dark shrouds and directly target our threats. Since we have even less firepower after diverting points to the shrouds, this is far more damaging to us.
good point
Automatically Appended Next Post: Christopher baudar lost two games at ETC against nids and imperial knights. Even three dark talons did not help. 0-20 loss both times, i assume he got tabled which is a common issue with azrael blob.
I played several times vs nids and its just not possible to win if you run azrael blob, you get stomped on turn one or two by genestealers or by their carnifex with ridicilous amount of shots
Havent played vs knights, but they have so much firepower and stratagem to avoid degradation penalties...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/04 03:55:38
2018/08/04 09:17:01
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
I also struggle a lot against nids.
The closest I came to winning was a tie (and I forgott about a whole squad of tacticals in one of my razorbacks)
What would you field against nids?
I feel like there is just not much I can do against them.
A trygon bomb will deliver 180 S4 shots plus genestealers are running up the field.
Any advice is appreciated!
PS: what do you guys think about adding a knight to a DA army?
I painted one in the DA color scheme for 7th ed and it was a lot of fun.
2018/08/04 13:49:05
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
Hello guys, new to the forums and the tabletop aswell.
So I'm writing this post to know what more experienced players think about our stratagem "The Lion and the Wolf".
I figured that given how many knights and high toughness targets (baneblades) are in my local meta, getting two smashcaptains would go a long way.
On the matter of adding a Space Wolves detachment, I thought about the 3 HQ one, the wolf lord (captain), along with 2 rune priests (vanilla librarians). The rune priest also have access to an equivalent of aversion, which could also let me stack them somewhat avoiding the psichic focus rule.
Anyways , I'd love some insight on the list as I'm planning on taking it to my next in-house tournament. Hope you guys can help me.
Stationmoon wrote: Hello guys, new to the forums and the tabletop aswell.
So I'm writing this post to know what more experienced players think about our stratagem "The Lion and the Wolf".
I figured that given how many knights and high toughness targets (baneblades) are in my local meta, getting two smashcaptains would go a long way.
On the matter of adding a Space Wolves detachment, I thought about the 3 HQ one, the wolf lord (captain), along with 2 rune priests (vanilla librarians). The rune priest also have access to an equivalent of aversion, which could also let me stack them somewhat avoiding the psichic focus rule.
Anyways , I'd love some insight on the list as I'm planning on taking it to my next in-house tournament. Hope you guys can help me.
To me it seems that the main threat in this list is 9 hellblasters. Problem is that this list will struggle against mass infantry, for example tyranids with several carnifex or drukhari which will just screw you over by stealing our WoFTDA strategaem.Not much you can do about IG either, so it basically depends on your local meta.By the way, it doesn't make much sense to take many psykers since each consecutive smite will come with a penalty, so no point in taking ezekiel or those rune priests.
Ezekiel is a great looking model, but i wouldnt rely on him since our powers are not really that great and even if you commit to them, its better to take a libby with jump pack/bike to deliver those powers wherever you want
2018/08/04 19:46:02
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
I don't find Ezekiel to really be worth the price of admission. The ability is kinda cool but you're not gonna want to build around it. More mileage would be found by a generic Librarian with a relic.
Librarians underperform terribly though thanks to limited tables. Rule-of-1-cast really wouldn't matter if we at least had more spells to cast.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/08/04 22:34:58
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
I have a friend who is really struggling with his DA lists to a point where he's almost giving up on the game and I'd like to give him a hand.
He is in a tough spot, he doesn't have the energy nor the allowance to really invest in new models at the moment and both me and another friend that usually play with him have quite a good collection already (Death Guard, Chaos Demons and Necrons).
What I know he has:
- Assorted Tacticals, mostly with plasma guns and missile launchers.
- Most HQ options on Power Armour.
- A few Ravenwing Bike Squads, we usually let him proxy weapon loadouts.
- Black Knights on Bikes, he loves these guys.
- A couple HQ choices on Bikes.
- Two Land speeders.
- Sammael on his Plasma bike
- 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks
- A few Deathwing Termies
- A few of the CC Deathwing Termies
- A few scouts
I'm looking for general direction on how to help him out. I think he feels very frustrated by losing expensive models to Smite and other kinds of Mortal wounds. Is there anything in DA arsenal that can help with that?
Last saturday we where playing a 1000pts narrative event and he got trashed by a mobile Eldar List and a Chaos Demon list with 4 Demon Princes wreaking havoc with their smites. He had a large bike force but I feel like he must be mishandling the bikers as when I field them they feel great. Any advice and pointers would be welcome, I'll go ahead and dig on the thread for tips. Thanks in advance.
maybe you guys should start using the new beta rules for starters so stuff like 4 demon princes does not happen anymore, second any marines list will struggle in low point matches as it is a elite army. try not to go below 1750 with it
2018/08/05 02:12:50
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
Aeri wrote: I also struggle a lot against nids.
The closest I came to winning was a tie (and I forgott about a whole squad of tacticals in one of my razorbacks)
What would you field against nids?
I feel like there is just not much I can do against them.
A trygon bomb will deliver 180 S4 shots plus genestealers are running up the field.
Any advice is appreciated!
PS: what do you guys think about adding a knight to a DA army?
I painted one in the DA color scheme for 7th ed and it was a lot of fun.
Nids are a tricky opponent for anyone, but like most other armies DA can address them. For horde control, Talonmasters and Sammy in Sableclaw are both pretty nice. 2-3 Dark Talons can give pretty good horde control as well. Plus we have the old standby Twin Asscan Razorback and Aggressors, and even the probably-not-worth-its-points Repulsor. If what you are having trouble with is big bugs like Flyrants and Carnifex spam, pretty much anything with Lascannons or Missiles can rough them up pretty good. Plus our old reliable Hellblasters next to Azrael can smush them bugs good. Don't put your guys in a position where Genestealers can get an unopposed charge off, or you will have a really rough time. Keep enough space around your main blob so that they have to eat some overwatch to get to you, if that's possible. Don't hug terrain or they'll just charge you from behind it and get in scot free. Also, what is the range on the guns that come in the Trygon bomb? If it's short, just Auspex Scan them to keep the number of incoming shots down. I've never faced a Trygon before, at least not recently, and even that time it was Hormagaunts that came up with it, so no shooting.
As far as Knight allies, I just played in an RTT earlier today with Dark Angels supported by a Knight Crusader and an Astra Militarum battalion (for the CP). Knights bring some great firepower and are pretty tanky if they get their 3++ (Ion Bulwark trait with Rotate Ion Shields strat). I went 1-2, with the first game being a pretty bad defeat vs. an all-Knights opponent that went first against me, the second game being my only win, vs. AM and Space Wolves, and the third game losing by 1 point against a Guilliman list (and I wouldn't have lost that one if I had not made a couple of big mistakes, plus Guilliman made his 3++ saves like my opponent's life depended on it or something!). The Knight was a star in all 3 games, causing all kinds of pain for my opponents, and he only went down once (to the Knights guy, who tabled me). So yes, I'd say they make a great ally for Dark Angels. I recommend House Raven for the strat, but Krast isn't a terrible choice either for their relic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/05 02:13:41
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
2018/08/05 08:45:14
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
Thanks for the Feedback! Just to make sure: I thought Knights can only be Freeblades in an Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, no?
I (currently) neither have a Talonmaster or Sammy on Sableclaw (but on Corvex ), but I agree they are my best bet against hordes together with some Razorbacks.
Trygon Bombs have 18'' range I think, so there is not much you can do about except for zoning with scouts. Problem here is, that those scouts offer a free charge for genestealers, so they advance even faster :/
*************** 1 Flyer *************** Ravenwing Dark Talon - - - > 200 P
Questor Imperialis: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 493 P *************** 1 Lord of War *************** Knight Crusader, Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Ironstorm missile pod, Thermal cannon, Heavy stubber - - - > 493 P
PS: I never build lists against 1 certain opponent, although at the moment I mostly face Nids ;-)
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/05 08:59:37
2018/08/05 16:45:30
Subject: Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
I am looking for feedback on below list. Mainly on the 4 landspeeders, which I have not seen in that many lists ....most likely for a good reason
I actually believed they have several advantages.
Durability, 6 wounds on a T5 model with 3+ and 4++ after turn 1 is fair.. and backed by a darkshoud
Mobility, 20” +d6 (reroll with sammy around)
Firepower, with the mobility they really pack a punch ...and of course adding talon master and sammy on top
And then Weapons of the old age can be used else where (compared to black knights being the tip of the spear) ...like 4 inceptors supporting the speeders in turn 2
The rest is all about screening units . Bikes and storm running flanking duty and the whirlwind creating a even more focused punch.
The reason for the librarian is two fold. One is aversion which works nicely with the darkshroud, and secondly The eye of the unseen combined with mobility, tallonmaster with heavenfall blade, sammy and mindwipe have allowed me to defeat some scary opponents in close combat. (Having all of them swing first)
For the same cost as those four Land Speeders, you could ally in a Knight Crusader. Better firepower and durability, and comparable mobility. Speeders really, really need a points drop with the next Chapter Approved; they are just not really viable at their current cost. A Typhoon costs almost as much as a Las/Missile Dreadnought, and I'd take the Dreadnought over the Speeder every single time. And Dreads aren't exactly top tier competitive right now either.
Another option for a similar job to the Land Speeder unit you've got there would be 2 Dark Talons, plus 70 points of other stuff. You could probably trim enough fat out of that list (dropping the LS Storm and the Whirlwind) to get 3 Dark Talons in an Air Wing detachment.
Believe me, I want more of our stuff to be viable. I used to really love running my Speeders back in 7th when they actually did some good work, but they just aren't worth it now, mainly due to their cost. I've got quite a few models that are doing shelf duty just because they aren't good, including 4 Speeders, some 25-30 Deathwing Terminators of various types, and several Dreads, plus some Tacticals and Assault units from back when Lion's Blade Battle Company was a thing, and none of those models are worth actually fielding, so they just collect dust. Ultimately every army has some units like that, with cool models that are utter trash to actually play with.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
2018/08/06 08:44:21
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
ZergSmasher wrote: For the same cost as those four Land Speeders, you could ally in a Knight Crusader. Better firepower and durability, and comparable mobility. Speeders really, really need a points drop with the next Chapter Approved; they are just not really viable at their current cost. A Typhoon costs almost as much as a Las/Missile Dreadnought, and I'd take the Dreadnought over the Speeder every single time. And Dreads aren't exactly top tier competitive right now either.
Another option for a similar job to the Land Speeder unit you've got there would be 2 Dark Talons, plus 70 points of other stuff. You could probably trim enough fat out of that list (dropping the LS Storm and the Whirlwind) to get 3 Dark Talons in an Air Wing detachment.
Believe me, I want more of our stuff to be viable. I used to really love running my Speeders back in 7th when they actually did some good work, but they just aren't worth it now, mainly due to their cost. I've got quite a few models that are doing shelf duty just because they aren't good, including 4 Speeders, some 25-30 Deathwing Terminators of various types, and several Dreads, plus some Tacticals and Assault units from back when Lion's Blade Battle Company was a thing, and none of those models are worth actually fielding, so they just collect dust. Ultimately every army has some units like that, with cool models that are utter trash to actually play with.
What do you think about using vulture gunships instead of dark talons?
They have several advantages that makes them a good replacement:
1. 24 inch range which sometimes might be enough to shoot something without even moving at BS3+
2. More wounds toughness
3. Costs less - 162 points
Good distraction since 40 shots is something that many opponents may fear, especially if the volture goes hover mode.
You may run them as an airwing detachment and either throw them at opponent or shoot from deployment zone, in both cases they will be a great distraction while your other forces do their stuff
2018/08/06 15:08:22
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
ZergSmasher wrote: For the same cost as those four Land Speeders, you could ally in a Knight Crusader. Better firepower and durability, and comparable mobility. Speeders really, really need a points drop with the next Chapter Approved; they are just not really viable at their current cost. A Typhoon costs almost as much as a Las/Missile Dreadnought, and I'd take the Dreadnought over the Speeder every single time. And Dreads aren't exactly top tier competitive right now either.
Another option for a similar job to the Land Speeder unit you've got there would be 2 Dark Talons, plus 70 points of other stuff. You could probably trim enough fat out of that list (dropping the LS Storm and the Whirlwind) to get 3 Dark Talons in an Air Wing detachment.
Believe me, I want more of our stuff to be viable. I used to really love running my Speeders back in 7th when they actually did some good work, but they just aren't worth it now, mainly due to their cost. I've got quite a few models that are doing shelf duty just because they aren't good, including 4 Speeders, some 25-30 Deathwing Terminators of various types, and several Dreads, plus some Tacticals and Assault units from back when Lion's Blade Battle Company was a thing, and none of those models are worth actually fielding, so they just collect dust. Ultimately every army has some units like that, with cool models that are utter trash to actually play with.
Unfortunately I am in complete agreement. Land Speeders, with the exception of the Talonmaster and of course the Dark Shroud, just don't work. They need a points drop or perhaps something like Strafing Run to be viable. They do look nice on my shelf though. Its sad since they are fairly iconic.
I have been working really hard to try and make the Deathwing work. They can do OK in some matchups, but they fold like a cheap suit against many foes. Terminators need some serious redesign, or many of their opponent's weapons need a redesign. I don't see either happening.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2018/08/06 19:45:40
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
Thank you for your feedback. I guess I kind of knew the answer, as I have felt the pain when I field the Landspeeder version of ravenwing. At least I have not been able to make it work. Can only hope for a small buff at some point as I really like the idea of a ravenwing landspeeder army...
Happy gaming
2018/08/07 12:59:29
Subject: Re:Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24, ETC / BAO pg. 34
I'm wondering about the Azrael blob myself, like maybe that build is a trap or something. I'm just not sure what to replace it with. Ravenwing are okay-ish, but like most bikes are too fragile vs. most things for their points. With the bikes you have the mobility to grab objectives, but no staying power to actually hold those objectives. With the Azzy deathball, you lack mobility, but you do have some staying power and a lot of firepower. The problem with it is that it is very one-dimensional and your opponent will know exactly what it does and probably good ways to limit its effectiveness. Hence why I'm saying it might be a trap. The more I try listbuilding, the more I'm considering just running more Knights and gradually replacing the DA portions of my lists...
Hopefully Chapter Approved will fix some of the problems Marines in general have. Our units are too expensive for what they do, compared to other armies. I'm just starting to lose faith a little, after my last tournament performance with Dark Angels was less than stellar. I'm still going to play in a GT with them in a couple of weeks, so we'll see what happens.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 
11,100 pts, 
), but I agree they are my best bet against hordes together with some Razorbacks.
