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Well, a Lily is also a symbol of lesbian relationships in some Asian cultures, but there's really not much we can do to get away from the Fleur de Lys-- and I wouldn't want to anyway given that it's such an iconic thing for Sisters. Horde de Lys is fine by me.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
It's also a reference to when Jesus's blood dripped on Mary's face at his crucifixion. Guess which one GW was referring to!
Don't be so Quick To Anger.
And this was my post-LVO email to GW:
Spoiler:
Went 5-1 at LVO with Sisters primary of The Pink Tide, which secures me as Best in Faction for Sisters in the ITC by a considerable margin.
Lost my game to Josh Death because I failed The Passion with reroll. I have to say that having to make a 5+ for Fix Bayonets and only being able to attempt it once for the whole army, after commiting to the several charges required to make it pay off, feels pretty amazing. I sure hope you -F- every other faction up this badly so everyone gets a chance to experience losing a game on a single dice roll with a high chance of failure.
The difference between my LVO list and my prior-to-the-errata list is fairly simple: The Passion got nerfed, and I expected people to bring more anti-infantry because Deathwatch, Tyranids and Ork lists placing well in the events just prior to LVO, so I leaned in and took a Krastsader. This was a good call.
I took Indomitable Belief every game, and there is no reasonable justification for ever considering any of the other warlord traits with Sisters Primary because of how weak they are in comparison.
I took the Brazzer every game where my opponent had access to even a single psychic spell.
I took Blade of Admonition for 1 CP in every game (I should have taken Executioners on my Canonesses, but I was unsure if Canonesses still had access to Executioners under ITC's rules for LVO since they said that the Index was dead, and did not want to chance it).
I do not believe that there are any other relics worth considering, given how weak and inconsistent Acts of Faith are, and how weak the relics are in general:
Litanies of Faith would be worth considering if you weren't limited to one Act per phase. I started the game with 10 faith points, and had legitimate reason to use maybe five of them (once for the pivotal The Passion turn, and four for morale autopass), and generally spent the remaining four or five reviving single 9pt models, healing Celestine, or giving a deepstriking seraphim squad +1 bs simply because I had no other purpose for them. None of these secondary uses were generally within range of a Sisters character who could take this relic, so they would have been unaffected by Litanies regardless. This relic is poorly designed, and should effect all faith point usage regardless of where the point is used (Grand Strategist for Faith Points).
Mantle of Ophelia is garbage. Assume you pay 1CP for an extra relic, because your first one is going to be the Brazzer. So you're trading 1 CP for 5 points. Santic Halo and other equivalents tend to have a secondary effect to make them worthwhile, and Mantle of Ophelia desperately needs one. Combining in one of the you-will-never-even-consider-this-because-indomitable-belief-exists warlord traits seems logical (specifically Righteous Rage), or some other melee buff.
The only reason you'd consider taking the Book is to splash Vessel, and that was errata'd to not work, so you're still stuck swarming everything around Celestine, your Indomitable Belief stick, a Priest, a Dialogus, etc., so increasing one of those to 9" doesn't do a whole lot. I took it twice at LVO on my Indomitable warlord on awkward deployments so that I could deploy the warlord inside a building and not get sniped, while still having her in range of my entire TPT blob and Exorcists.
Wrath of the Emperor is just subpar. You're taking a bolt pistol to get access to it, so you're basically paying a CP to get a half-range heavy bolter. That's 10 points. If it had a heavy bolter's range, I could see the justification for using it on a backfield Indomitable Canoness to stand around with Retributors and Exorcists in a castle, but with only 18" range, it's bad. If it could be put onto a Seraphim Superior, I could see using it in an allied detachment to add oomph to their Burning Descent, but it can't.
Celestine just isn't worth 160 points. Her direct comparison is a Smashcap. Assuming they're swinging at something T7 or T8, she has about two-thirds of a generic UM cap's threatened damage (vs T7: 7.128 for the UM Smashcap vs 4.98 for Celestine). Assuming The Passion succeeds and she's in range of a Priest, she can almost compare with their damage output when they doublefight. If her sword was flat 3 damage, she would be capable of threatening slightly higher damage output (7.47 vs T7). At that point, she still doesn't have the ability to challenge a BA Smashcap (14.34 vs T7)... unless she also gets access to Bloody Rose and has a Priest and Canoness nearby (14.81). With any other Order (or no Order), she would have 10.19 vs T7 next to a Priest+Canoness. She also needs the option to Sky Strike.
Canoness needs a jump pack option, with Sky Strike.
Repentia need a way to advance and charge, and a way to avoid overwatch. This would give them the pie-in-the-sky option to disembark and threaten a turn1 charge. Giving their transport a pre-game movement stratagem would cover both of these requirements, as they would be able to disembark close enough to threaten the charge, and the vehicle would be close enough to soak the overwatch. Either that, or a way to deepstrike/outflank and ignore overwatch (outflank their transport covers these).
Hand of the Emperor is trash and doesn't serve a purpose. When is this ability supposed to be worthwhile? Capturing points? It's not Move Move Move. Closing for charges? It can't effect units in transports, and can only be used on one unit per turn (outside of Vessels). Vesseling it out to the whole army makes it almost worthwhile, but at that point it's a 3CP stratagem. 6" movement would be good, but +6" on your whole army would be too good; again, that's a problem with Vessels. If it added 3" to move, advance and charge, and could be used in the Charge phase, that'd be pretty solid as well.
Acts of Faith should just autopass. There isn't a legitimate reason for there to be a roll for any of them except The Passion, and the only reason they seem to have a roll associated with them is to cause you to "do stuff" to make it more rewarding when it goes off, and be able to build more superfluous mechanics around it. Throttling Vessel would be needed, specifically in the case of The Passion, but again that's an issue with Vessel. The Passion would need to go up to 2 FP to use.
Dialogus should be given the Missionary/Uriah's don't run aura, rather than their AoF reroll, because you shouldn't be rolling.
Dialogus and Hospitalier should get the Order keyword. There's no game-balance reason for them not to have it, and not having it causes stupid issues with not being able to carry relics and have the relic actually function.
Boxes should be able to be targeted with AoF, rather than having to splash them onto them. Giving an Exorcist +1 BS isn't a big deal, nor is healing one for D3 when they have no access to Tech Priest equivalents.
Orders need to apply to boxes: allowing Exorcists to overwatch on 5s, or giving your vehicles a 6+++, would go a long way towards making two of the other Orders competitive with Bloody Rose in different builds.
Celestians' bodyguard rule needs to not suck. It needs to intercept the wounding attack, not cause girls to line up to get skewered by a single multidamage hit.
Exorcists need to be made more consistent.
Death Cult Assassins fail to serve any purpose now that Arcoflags have AP1 and Trigger Word. There doesn't seem to be a reason for them to be that expensive.
Geminae are just mind-blowingly awful. If they had 4 wounds per model, that might make them good enough. They need access to Bloody Rose to make their offensive statline and mandatory powersword not suck so bad.
Pointing out your wording is in poor taste (and it is) isn't anger.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The symbols of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose are directly lifted from the heraldic flowers of the counties of Lancashire (red rose) and Yorkshire (white rose). Both the counties and their roses occupy a prominent place in English history, and with GW being an English company I think that's a more likely explanation for this symbolism than esoteric references to menstruation or lesbianism.
Now, can our across-the-pond friends stop speculating about the Sisters' symbolism and get back to asking why people are still complaining about a lack of native CC options in a Sisters Codex when they've never had that or even really needed it. Sisters can bring really good guns in relatively large quantities, and they get special nun miracles to make the said guns even better. Why do you want CC units? What do they add?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 20:08:25
No CC options for the Tau mean they get S5 basic guns with 30" range, increased Overwatch effectiveness in exchange for being punchy.
I'd love to see the return of the Brazier of Holy Fire, the once per game Heavy Flamer which was also a Power Weapon in close combat, or the Axe of Retribution, or any of the relics from the 2nd Edition Sisters codex.
Eviscerators for Sister Superiors. Jump packs for Celestian squads, maybe bring back the palatine as a Jump Pack character.
Maybe not the Sarissa.
5 points to perform worse in close combat than if you didn't have it, what a bargain....
Or let's widen out that definition of 'really good guns' to Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and Plasma like the rest of the Imperium get.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 20:37:16
Frowbakk wrote: Or let's widen out that definition of 'really good guns' to Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and Plasma like the rest of the Imperium get.
Let me just stop this nonsense right here. The sisters have 3 guns. Period. Anything else is heresy.
BBAP wrote: Now, can our across-the-pond friends stop speculating about the Sisters' symbolism and get back to asking why people are still complaining about a lack of native CC options in a Sisters Codex when they've never had that or even really needed it.
3.5th edition says otherwise, but some of us are longer-term Sisters players than you so I can understand why you might not remember that edition. And if that sounds arrogant to you, tough gak. Sisters actually had half-decent CC options in 3.5th, primarily focused around tarpitting but with clever uses of acts of faith and the units we had at our disposal (Celestine, Celestians, Seraphim being the primary examples) we could also cause damage as well as tarpit. Celestians not only had equivalent skill to a space marine, they arguably had BETTER skill offensively than the average Space Marine, especially against high-WS enemies (in 3.5th edition, WS of hte attacker was compared to the WS of the defender to determine hitrate, with equal WS being 4+; Celestians always hit on a 3+ unless their WS allowed them better). Repentia used to have better eviscerators, though they also used to cost way more. Basic Battle Sisters could also attack at initiative 5 (equal to Eldar) and Celestians/Seraphim at 6, which was before most Eldar could attack, or attack at strength... five, I think (can't remember if it was +2 str or double str, but either way higher htan a Marine's toughness), if they chose to go last, all of which were quite valid options depending on the circumstance.
Sisters HAVE had close combat options in the past. They have fewer options now than than before due to changes in both the rules for Sisters and just in general how the rules work, but acting like "they've never had that" is flat out wrong. Sisters certainly have never had a "Abbadon and a band of khornate champions" level of CC, but they have had better in the past than they have right now (barring the wonderful addition of OoBR, which I'm grateful for!), and had you played back then you'd know this. Hell, if you even read some of the discussions in this thread in the past week you'd know this.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2019/02/15 21:22:44
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Codex: Chapter Approved 2002 had Redemptionists (with Zealots) which were the precursors to Repentia. And they were certainly a potent melee unit in C:CA (early 3rd). As Frowbakk said, we also had Axe of Ret in that book which was amazing as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/15 21:23:32
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Oh yes, I remember the Axe of Retribution. A power axe capable of cleaving tanks in half, both in lore and actually in game!
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: 3.5th edition says otherwise, but some of us are longer-term Sisters players than you so I can understand why you might not remember that edition.
You mean Codex: Witch Hunters? I played that book. Not in 3rd Edition, or in 3.5 (whatever that is), but I ran it a bit in 4th and a lot in 5th.
Sisters actually had half-decent CC options in 3.5th
If by "3.5th" you mean C:WH then no, they didn't. They had wargear-mule Canonesses who used up all your FP to maintain their invulnerable saves (meaning no tarpits or AP reduction elsewhere), and either paid 30-odd points for Eternal Warrior or else risked doubling out the first time they failed said save due to T3. They also had slow-ass T3 Repentia who, like other slow-ass "CC" units, could be bogged down with spare transports and rinsed away with small arms; Seraphim, who had twin-linked pistols and Disengage and hence were designed to work best in the shooting phase; Penitengines, which were indescribably awful units; and Inquisitors/ Lords, who were like Canonesses only with no FP or Jump Packs.
Celestine was a blender in C:WH, same as she is today, however I vaguely recall one of her special rules prevented your army generating Faith Points from Martyrdoms if she died. Which she would, again, due to T3. Cutting off FP replenishment always seemed like a bad idea to me, especially if you might want to tarpit stuff for more than a couple of turns.
Celestians not only had equivalent skill to a space marine, they arguably had BETTER skill offensively than the average Space Marine
Tac Marines aren't assault units, so the fact Celestians were marginally better in assault than them is not impressive. Celestians were best used as a vector for MOAR Immolators and Meltaguns, not as CC units.
Repentia used to have better eviscerators
They had S6 chainfists IIRC. Chainfists were useful primarily as a means to take down AV14 vehicles, and thus the S6 ones were entirely superfluous in an army full to bursting with S8 Meltaguns which could do the same job from 6" away (and thus were less likely to die in the explosion than a T3 6+ Repentia in base contact).
Basic Battle Sisters could also attack at initiative 5 (equal to Eldar) and Celestians/Seraphim at 6, which was before most Eldar could attack, or attack at strength... five, I think (can't remember if it was +2 str or double str, but either way higher htan a Marine's toughness), if they chose to go last, all of which were quite valid options depending on the circumstance.
They couldn't do both at the same time though. If they could then we'd be having a different conversation, but as it stands these options made your Sisters marginally more effective against stuff they could already kill in CC (Guardsmen, Gretchin, Termagants, etc) but did little to make them more fearsome against Orks, Tactical Marines, or anything else, really.
Fortunately you didn't need to kill these units in CC because you had guns to shoot them with and tanks to move your guns close enough to double tap. Thus you could save your Faith Points for 3++ saves and whatnot.
Sisters HAVE had close combat options in the past. They have fewer options now than than before due to changes in both the rules for Sisters and just in general how the rules work, but acting like "they've never had that" is flat out wrong.
Let me rephrase, then.
Sisters have always been a mid-range MSU/ special weapon shooting army, right up until 8th Edition, when they became a footslogging boltgun horde army. There have been a few desultory attempts to create CC units for them but these have largely sucked for one reason or another, and none of them cold do anything the army didn't already do better. The 7th/ 8th Edition iteration of Saint Celestine is the sole exception to this. Everything else has been poop.
No CC options for the Tau mean they get S5 basic guns with 30" range, increased Overwatch effectiveness in exchange for being punchy.
I'd love to see the return of the Brazier of Holy Fire, the once per game Heavy Flamer which was also a Power Weapon in close combat, or the Axe of Retribution, or any of the relics from the 2nd Edition Sisters codex.
Eviscerators for Sister Superiors. Jump packs for Celestian squads, maybe bring back the palatine as a Jump Pack character.
Maybe not the Sarissa.
5 points to perform worse in close combat than if you didn't have it, what a bargain....
Or let's widen out that definition of 'really good guns' to Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and Plasma like the rest of the Imperium get.
Why not bring back the Praesidium Protectiva too!
... or, alternatively, allow Sisters to Fall Back and still shoot later in the turn. Make it an Act of Faith. Or, even better, redesign the existing AdMin CC units so they're actually an option, rather than a waste of points you'd be better spending on more Sisters. Just a thought.
Melissia wrote: 3.5th edition says otherwise, but some of us are longer-term Sisters players than you so I can understand why you might not remember that edition.
You mean Codex: Witch Hunters? I played that book. Not in 3rd Edition, or in 3.5 (whatever that is), but I ran it a bit in 4th and a lot in 5th.
3rd edition basically had 3 codexes: Black Book, C:CA (Chapter Approved codex Sisters) and C:WH. C:WH came out after the trial assault rules which is generally known as 3.5 since it was a shake up.
Sisters have always been a mid-range MSU/ special weapon shooting army, right up until 8th Edition, when they became a footslogging boltgun horde army.
I'll disagree here. 8th edition has not forced them to be a footslogging boltgun horde. Some folks think it has, but horde isn't the only playstyle.
There have been a few desultory attempts to create CC units for them but these have largely sucked for one reason or another, and none of them cold do anything the army didn't already do better. The 7th/ 8th Edition iteration of Saint Celestine is the sole exception to this. Everything else has been poop.
Redemptionists. 3rd - 3.5 (and after with WD rules). They were basically fearless guard that had LP/CCW and could take 1 eviscerator for five models, were faithful (so got WBB, extra attacks and init and rending) if they wanted and could use one use flamer throwers on the charge if you were feeling like spending more points. They blenderized whole armies in 3rd.
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Here's the feedback I provided to GW. I wish I had the chance to play more games and provide more informed feedback, but I think these will qualify as constructive criticism.
Spoiler:
Sisters of Battle Beta Codex Feedback
Overall, I have enjoyed playing the Beta Codex. All the essential elements of the Sisters of Battle are evident in the rules. Power Levels and Match Play Points have been updated to make more sense. The addition of Order Convictions and Stratagems gives variety and makes you feel like you are playing a full codex. Still, I experienced and noticed a number of problems.
Acts of Faith
Moving from the Index where Acts of Faith were a limited but powerful tool for the army, they have been toned down so much as to become more of an afterthought in play than a critical part of strategy. This is because they are:
Too Unreliable: Unless you spend extra points for upgrade model or give up your Conviction to making them more reliable, you basically have a 50% chance of getting off an Act of Faith (since they range from 3+ to 5+ depending on how strong they are).
Too Limited Usage: Under the Index, my army got to use 1-4 Acts of Faith per turn (Army 2+, Celestine Automatic, 2 Imagifiers 4+ each). Under the Beta Codex, my 1500 Point Army of the same models had 7 Faith Points, and I only succeeded to 4 of the 7 Acts of Faith I tried. This is extremely unsatisfying compared the number of Acts I was able to try and succeed with Witch Hunter Codex, White Dwarf 2011 Codex, and Index: Imperium 2.
Less Powerful Effects: Under the Index, the Acts of Faith were powerful. Arguably too powerful given how easy it was to use them. Now they are much less powerful, with lesser effects that happen in line with the turn structure rather than outside of it (all executed before you start optional actions in your movement phase). This makes them much less powerful in play.
Combined together, this triple effect makes Acts of Faith much less special and much less worth making any effort to capitalize on them. I really feel that Acts of Faith need to be a bit more common and reliable, even if they are not more powerful. As a Sisters of Battle Player, I want to channel the power of Faith in the Emperor on the battlefield, not feel it’s barely worth the paperwork to track.
Notes on the Specific Acts of Faith:
Hand of the Emperor: With so many armies getting additional full movements, +3” movement just feels lackluster. It’s not that is bad, it just doesn’t allow for radically interesting movement like Astra MIlitarum’s Move! Move! Move! Order or Stratagems that give a second move (sometimes including Advance).
Spirit of the Martyr: This is the same sort of effect as the Hospitalier’s Medicus Ministorum ability and many other similar abilities on various units. I would want an Act of Faith to be more miraculous than the job of a combat medic. This would be great opportunity to have an Act that actually increase unit durability via a bonus to Saves or a Ignore Wounds roll that last until your next turn.
Aegis of the Emperor: This is a truly good Act of Faith. It is special and really makes you want to shout, “The Emperor Protects!” It really gives you a defense from being blasted off the board by armies with lots of Psychic Powers that do Mortal Wounds.
Divine Guidance: I’m disappointed in how mild an offensive increase this Act is, doubly so that it have no impact on Flamers since those automatically hit. Going from AP1 on Wound Rolls of 6 (CWH) or an additional Ranged Attack for the unit (Index) to a +1 to Hit makes the impact very unsatisfying. Something like +1 Strength to your shooting attacks would give this the punch we are used to seeing.
The Passion: Solid, if you successfully activate. The only downside compared to other Codexes is that allowing a unit to fight again is a hard to activate Act of Faith rather than a Stratagem.
Light of the Emperor: Weak as an Act of Faith because you have so many other options to mitigate the effect of Morale.
Shield of Faith
This is a rather bad Ability because it so rarely actually does anything in game.
Invulnerable Save: In an army where the vast majority of models either have a 3+ Save or a better source for an Invulnerable Save (or even both), this is rarely rolled against. Only AP -4 or better makes a 6+ Invulnerable Save relevant. This helps for vehicles, but is almost pointless on Infantry models. I can’t say I have any better ideas (5+ Invulnerable Save would be too much as the base ability), but it just seems weak.
Deny the Witch on 1d6: Even less useful than the 6+ Invulnerable Save. You only even get to roll when your opponent rolls a 5 on their Psychic Test (I’m pretty sure there are no Psychic Powers with a Warp Charge less than 5). Otherwise, you can’t roll higher than them. This would be more useful if it was a flat Negate a power on a roll of 6, Deny the Witch on 2d6 with a Negative modifier, or even just Ignore Mortal Wounds from Psychic Powers on a Roll of 6 (like a less powerful Aegis of the Emperor).
Ways to Enhance other Abilities
The Beta Codex is full of ways to improve other parts of the codex. This would be good if it wasn’t a case of improving bad abilities into usable abilities.
Acts of Faith: Several items improve your ability to get off Acts of Faith successfully. However, improving the reliability of unimpressive abilities seem more like a punishment than a reward. It feels like the message is “Spend more points and your Order Conviction if actually want to use Acts of Faith.”
Shield of Faith: Celestine and the Indomitable Faith Warlord Trait allow the Invulnerable Save to become very effective. The Brazier of Eternal Flame makes the ability to Deny the Witch actually possible. However, this forces you into choosing those items, removing the others from usefulness.
Unit Notes:
Units that Do Not Take Slots in Detachments: There are a lot of units that don’t take up slots in detachments in this Beta Codex if taken in combination with other units. I feel this is both clunky as it encourages creative list building (put this unit in a different detachment because it then takes a Slot which I need to get CP) or limits list building (I can’t use these units together in a detachment because it’s not enough filled slots to be legal). For example, you can’t build an Ecclesiarchy Vanguard Detachment because the presence of Minstorum Priest makes all the Elite Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units not take up slots. And in Matched Play, you can’t put more than one Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave in a detachment that doesn’t have a Minstorum Priest.
Celestine and the Geminae Superia: The separation of these into separate units really reducing their effectiveness in game. Before, you could lose both Geminae and still bring them back, now your opponent just needs to target them first to ensure Celestine can’t use Healing Tears to get one back (assuming you took both). Additionally, when you use an Act of Faith on Celestine, it no longer impacts the Geminae, which means that Celestine can easily run away from her bodyguards with either Hand of the Emperor or The Passion (through Pile-In and Consolidation moves). It would be really nice it Acts of Faith on Celestine extended to nearby Geminae and if the Geminae unit had their own Miraculous Intervention ability (or just more wounds so they don’t die so easily).
What I feel is Missing:
General Use Stratagems: We have a Stratagem for Seraphim, for Acro-Flagellents, for Storm Bolter Infantry (seems aimed at Dominions), plus the hard to use Faith and Fury (must succeed on limited Acts of Faith) and Holy Trinity (so many limitations before you can use. Where are the Stratagems for the individual elements of the Holy Trinity (the Bolter, the Melta, and the Flamer) that can be used by any unit?
The Evicerator: What happened to it? The current Canoness model comes with an Evicerator so why are there no rules for it.
Agreed except for the units not taking up slots thing. I actually like that feature and makes my own list building easier.
I shall throw up my latest feedback to GW too. It was just a break down unit by unit. I had previously sent a feedback that (nicely) tore the current AoF abilities to shreds and its interaction with the few Convictions that involve it.
Will get around to a feedback on stratagems and relics eventually.
Spoiler:
Greetings,
I have written in previously regarding the Beta Codex for the Sororitas in which I gave my general impressions from the games Ive had in testing the Codex out and in particular my feedback on the Acts of Faith (AoF).
What Id like to give today is a more focused feedback on the individual units.
Cannoness:
As always, a solid choice (only choice) for the Sororitas HQ. She performs solidly and I cant fault her. I like to take 3 of these in my games fulfilling a variety of roles from mellee beatstick to the new position of Shield of Faith (SoF) buffer for Exorcists.
It is an inconvenience and a mystery that tyou did not include the Eviscerator in her data slate for her available weapons. Granted i can have her take one via the index options, but it is still confusing why it wasnt put in- especially considering a while back the Warhammer Community showcased some of the Sororitas weapons, amongst which was the Eviscerator.
I do hope to see the Eviscerator in her entry in the full codex. Also, would live to see a return fir the Jump Pack upgrade option that she used to have in the Witch Hunters codex. I have 2 Cannoness in my collection with Jump Packs that dont get to live up to their potential.
Saint Celestine and the Geminae:
In the Beta Codex, she has been separated from her Geminae bodyguard, lost a wound, and can no longer come onto the board at a different location when she succeeds her Divine Intervention roll, and no longer hands out an automatic AoF. All this on top of the drastic change to the AoF abilities themselves. Celestine has been hit extremely hard.
Her role has changed in my army from frontline assaulter and harasser; to Exorcist baby sitter in my back field buffing the SoF with my Cannoness to benefit my valuable long range Exorcists. Hardly the image of the Emperors Avenging Angel.
Shes not as tough as she used to be; ive lost her on more than one occasion to a luck 6 from an opponents damage roll. She doesnt get a chance to use her Healing Tears ability on the Geminae as they are completely destroyed before they get a chance. Making the Geminae a seperate unit has hurt them a lot. 2 wounds each on a couple of toughness 3 models that are supposed to be bodyguards does not cut it.
I do not understand why Celestine and the Geminae got hit so hard. The change to the AoF ALONE was enough to severely hit Celestines effectiveness. The fact that she received further downgrades is astounding and not in a good way.
In all honesty, Celestine and the Geminae dataslate could have remained unchanged from the Index, as the change to AoF IS enough to have toned her down to a much more balanced level. In fact, given how lack lustre the current AoF abilities are, she could have easily retained her ability to grant a free AoF to a friendly nearby Sororitas unit even if once per turn.
The only reason I take Celestine now is because of the SoF buff she offers to my Exorcists. If she didnt have that, i can say with complete confidence, she would be collecting dust on my shelf right about now.
The Geminae on the other hand; are currently collecting dust.
My heartfelt hope is that you will do a complete 180 degree on the Celestine/Geminae dataslate and essentially copy-paste their entry from the Index into the full codex.
Also, why no Deepstrike?
Missionary:
A solid choice for those players who like lots of boots on the ground. The ability to ignore units lost to morale is cool, though im yet to need to use this ability in a game.
Lack of equipment options is disappointing.
Theyre a priest the takes up a HQ slot. Not much more to say.
Uriah Jacobus:
I have not tested him, so nothing to give here.
Sister of Battle Squad:
The backbone of the Sororitas army. The meat and 3 veg.
Still my favourite unit to take. When it comes to troop choices fir the army, these are the girls i take...granted theyre the only troop choice, but still. Love the versatility of special and heavy weapons. Holy Trinity has been a nice stratagem for these girls and has seen them lift a little more weight than they normally would.
These girls have been mostly unchanged for a while with the exception of the Index and now the Beta where their max squad size was lowered from 20 down to 15.
This is just a personal note that I like 20 better than 15.
Celestians:
Oh these poor girls still lack a place.
They cant be given extra heavy weapons without stepping on Retributors toes; cant be given extra special weapons without stepping on Dominions toes; cant be given shields and power weapons without stepping on Crusaders toes.
Their Bodyguard rule as it is now? Terrible. Other armies like Tau and Orks have similar bodyguard rules where they wont suffer any more than one mortal wound from a lascannon and have ways to even ignore that. Celestians on the other hand can have a whole squad wiped out (if you were so inclined) by a single las cannon shot.
This unit is so lost, im going to jump straight to suggestions for them because they are on paper and on the table, just Battle Sister Squads with an extra attack.
Suggestions for Celestians-
1) Change the Bodyguard rule to reflect the wording of other bodyguard rules such as Tau Saviour Protocols or similar to the Orks Grot Shield stratagem.
2) A native +1 to devotion rolls for AoF. Celestians are both martially and spiritually disciplined even compared to Battle Sisters. A benefit to the devotion rolls would be a good reflection to their faith and a counter point to the benefit that Seraphim get for SoF.
This benefit would stack with other sources such as the Ebon Chalice conviction and the squad equipping a Simulcrum Imperialis.
This would enable Celestians of the Order of the Ebon Chalice equipped with a Simulcrum to get +3 to their devotion tests, but this would go a long way to help define Celestians within the army, elevating them above other Sororitas units in their martial and spiritual prowess.
The Rule of 3 would also help avoid this unit from being abused in large numbers.
3) A way to negate mortal wounds received from the Bodyguard rule.
My immediate thought was to bring back an old piece of wargear called the Praesidium Protectiva- a combat shield of sorts. Allowing a couple of models in the unit to take one each in place of their boltguns.
I understand that such suggestions are limited by what plastics and scultps are in the making for the sisters release and that such a thing may not be (currently) possible. It is still a suggestion.
Implementing these suggestions would go a long way to helping the Celestian Squad and giving it a sense of purpose and identity.
Hospitaller:
50/50 chance to heal. Its okay. Ive taken it to try. But thats about it.
Dialogus:
I dont have a model so have not tried it. My paper impressions is that its solid but would be better if AoF were more effective.
Repentia/Mistress:
Overpriced still. So squishy- as they should be.
Theyre too dependant on Character Support (preacher/missionary, Mistress). Alone, ive had them struggle to accomplish anything, missing more than half the time and taking heavy casualties to lucky overwatch.
An unlucky charge roll from the mistress can put the Repentia outside her aura benefit and drastically reducing their effectiveness.
Id really like to see Repentia gain the Zealot special rule so they dont lose so much if they fall out of Mistress range.
Mistress is fine but would like to see her benefit from the buffs she gives the Repentia (rerolling failed hits and rerolling charge ranges). Essential for a squad though.
Preacher:
Its a Priest. Good for the extra attacks but i miss being able to give him different weapon loadouts.
Death Cult Assassins and Arco Flaggelants:
Solid. The addition of the -1ap for the Flaggelants has really bumped up their effectiveness and the Trigger Word stratagem on a full unit of Arcos is all the right kinds of nasty.
Crusaders:
Why do they have SoF and AoF? Why?
Strength 3 and toughness 3 on a combat unit isnt anything to get excited about even with a 3+ invulnerable save. They go down as quickly as normal sisters but that could just be my dice rolls.
Dominions and Seraphim:
Not much to say. Solid units. Always have been. Still are.
Retributors:
Theyre okay. Nice if you can get a squad of heavy flamer retributors up the field to lay down some serious hurt- especially with Holy Trinity.
Heavy Bolter Retributors are okay. Really, ive not been impressed with heavy bolter retributors.
Penitent Engines:
That Feel No Pain has made a world of difference. I still find them to be too slow to keep up with the front line assault and a smart opponent will still pick them off quickly.
I have seen some success keeping them in my back field as a counter charge against deep strikers.
The ability to charge after advancing and/or to reroll advance distance would go a long way to help their still fragile unit to get where it needs to be- in the thick of it!
Immolator:
Solid- especially with the Immolation Flamer! Love that thing.
Only way it could be better us if the immolation flamer could shoot units that are in combat with the immolator.
Rhino:
Its a Rhino. It would be the default large squad transport if it werent for...
Repressor:
Yes, its Forgeworld. Why take a Rhino when you can have a Repressor.
My suggestion: give in. Make the Repressor. Its a cool looking model. Forgeworld dont make it any more- so jump on it and make it! It will make money.
Exorcist:
Ladies and gentlemen, the Exorcist is in the house! Literally the Sororitas only long range weapon. This Classic unit sports a freaking pipe organ that shoots freaking missiles! So awesome!
Its buff to d6 Damage has fixed this unit!
I have had tremendous results with this iconic tank; from destroying unwounded vehicles in a single volley to a single Exorcist pummeling a Riptide down to 2 wounds in a single volley.
I cannot overstate how immensly satisfied I am with the Exorcist now.
pretre wrote: 3rd edition basically had 3 codexes: Black Book, C:CA (Chapter Approved codex Sisters) and C:WH. C:WH came out after the trial assault rules which is generally known as 3.5 since it was a shake up.
So C:WH is 3.5 - gotcha. Didn't play the book in 3rd at all but I ran it a bit in 4th and 5th.
I'll disagree here. 8th edition has not forced them to be a footslogging boltgun horde. Some folks think it has, but horde isn't the only playstyle.
I'm going to bow to experience here - I haven't played enough games with the army in 8th to make a call either way, and what games I have played haven't been "competetive" per se. What I will say is that the changes to damage rules in 8th seem to place a greater emphasis on having *more* shots rather than *better* shots hence the footslogging horde seems like a better bet to me. Vehicles still have a place, but only if they've got a good shots/ points cost coefficient, which Exorcists, Repressors and non-TLHB Immos don't (compare and contrast the much cheaper Chimeras in the Guard book). All that said, the nerf to the movement AoF didn't do footsloggers any favours.
Again though, I'm willing to bow to more experienced voices here.
Redemptionists. 3rd - 3.5 (and after with WD rules). They were basically fearless guard that had LP/CCW and could take 1 eviscerator for five models, were faithful (so got WBB, extra attacks and init and rending) if they wanted and could use one use flamer throwers on the charge if you were feeling like spending more points. They blenderized whole armies in 3rd.
That doesn't sound *too* bad, so I'll lower my bar here and call it "good". Sisters of Battle have been a thing since 2nd Edition and in that time they've had two "good" close combat units; these dudes and Celestine.
I dunno. I feel like if you want to play a close combat army Sisters are historically not the place to look, and trying to wedge CC in there risks denting the stuff Sisters actually do well (power armour, mid-range shooting, etc). Maybe give Genestealer Cults a look; they were amazing in 7th and are still relatively fun to play despite all the nerfs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/16 13:16:03
It's not about "playing a close combat army". It's about having options on how to build your list, which might include some units that are more capable in cc than your average battle sisters, because such a thing might be useful depending on your current meta.
Because I know this is crazy talk, but I would argue that, in fact, there is middle point between khornate berzerker spam and tau gunline.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/16 14:02:54
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My blog
Mmmpi wrote: Are the Royalists a large group in France?
No. Tiny part of the far-right, more something that's amusing than threatening. Really I'm now more afraid of flat-earther than of royalists.
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I just played a great game against Thousand Sons... all I can say is Great Scott! Our anti-psyker is potent. He brought nine psykers; I shut down one phase and easily rode out two others, to the point that his army felt a little flat. It was a hilarious game with some bizarre twists and some very unruly dice. I had a really hot turn 1 and then not much after that; my opponent likewise had some real duds and periled five times over four turns. I came down with a win on points after four turns with him sitting on a handful of termies and me with half my army. I'd have tabled him at the top of Turn 5.
I'm warming to AoFs... they're still cumbersome, but the results aren't terrible. Aegis of the Emperor really delivered this game. Stratagems are likewise getting better as I learn how and when to use them. I ran Brigade + Battalion and blew through most of 20 CPs by Turn 3. Blessed Bolts was clutch against All is Dust... without it, it took me the whole game to dislodge a squad of Rubrics holed up in a ruin.
Some wild turns: I gave him First Strike on my Turn 1 by charging Dominions into Rubrics and getting my butt kicked, but he gave me First Strike on his turn by Periling and nuking what was left of the same squad of Rubrics. Nearly every unit that died on both sides spent a whole turn with a single survivor, and characters and vehicles ran around with single wounds... both of us struggled to close out casualties. Of his last four units, two of them fell to a single Perils of the Warp. I finished off one of his sorcerers by squishing him between two Immolators.
Because he ran the Better Bolter Beta, I had to take the fight to him, which meant a lot of hiking. I'm getting the feel for the Cathedral-on-the-March; stormbolters did a lot of the work for me, and I Vesseled Hand of the Emperor at the right time to establish good range. Neither Sacred Rose nor Bloody Rose really delivered, but I think that was due to the match-up more than anything. Retributers and Seraphim were good but not great, and the Dominions mostly used their melta to gun down Rubrics and were dead before Magnus even showed up. The MVPs were the stormbolters in the Cathedral and the Exorcists.
Really fun game, great opponent, solid outcome.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/17 06:58:07
Melissia wrote: It's not about "playing a close combat army". It's about having options on how to build your list, which might include some units that are more capable in cc than your average battle sisters, because such a thing might be useful depending on your current meta.
You already have units in the Sisters Codex that are more capable in CC than your average Battle Sister. In the case of Celestine and Repentia they're very killy indeed, while the AdMin units are at least as good at killing stuff in assault as Battle Sisters are at killing stuff in the shooting phase.
Long rationale below the spoiler tag...
Spoiler:
Problem is, of course, that they have to actually move up to their target, pass a charge roll, then survive Overwatch in order to do damage, whereas ranged Sisters can stand half a table away and plink things to death. This leads us to the perennial problem CC units face in a generalist/ shooty Codex; it's almost never worth bringing them because your shooting is a far more reliable source of damage. Or, to put it another way, the CC units suck.
Assault units in the Sisters Codex are doubly damned because they're not only less effective and reliable than Battle Sisters when it comes to damage, but they don't even fix any of the Sisters' weaknesses. They're a lot more fragile than the average Battle Sister so they don't address survivability; they're no better at pushing wounds past invulnerable saves than your Battle Sisters are; they're not fast enough to fix the Sisters' lack of long-range high-S firepower; and not only do they *not* fix Sisters' reliance on vehicles for mobility, they actually suffer from it far more keenly than shooting units do. In a lot of cases they're not even any more capable of inflicting damage than Battle Sisters are - Repentia and Battle Sisters both need 5+ to wound T7, however the Battle Sisters don't get a native -1 to hit.
Celestine is, of course, the obvious exception to this.
... anyway. It's obviously not about "options", because you already have options but you're still complaining - so what is it about? Do you want the AdMin CC units to get buffed? If so I can sympathise, provided we're buffing them in ways that fix the inherent weaknesses in the Sisters Codex rather than just slapping extra Wounds, wargear and rules on them, like GW do with Space Marines. If they had some source of mortal wounds that'd make them a legit option in my book.
BBAP wrote: Problem is, of course, that they have to actually move up to their target, pass a charge roll, then survive Overwatch in order to do damage, whereas ranged Sisters can stand half a table away and plink things to death. This leads us to the perennial problem CC units face in a generalist/ shooty Codex; it's almost never worth bringing them because your shooting is a far more reliable source of damage. Or, to put it another way, the CC units suck.
Assault units in the Sisters Codex are doubly damned because they're not only less effective and reliable than Battle Sisters when it comes to damage, but they don't even fix any of the Sisters' weaknesses. They're a lot more fragile than the average Battle Sister so they don't address survivability; they're no better at pushing wounds past invulnerable saves than your Battle Sisters are; they're not fast enough to fix the Sisters' lack of long-range high-S firepower; and not only do they *not* fix Sisters' reliance on vehicles for mobility, they actually suffer from it far more keenly than shooting units do. In a lot of cases they're not even any more capable of inflicting damage than Battle Sisters are - Repentia and Battle Sisters both need 5+ to wound T7, however the Battle Sisters don't get a native -1 to hit.
Celestine is, of course, the obvious exception to this'
OoBR Repentia are S8, they get to re-roll misses using the "Driven Onwards" rule the Mistress provides which is actually better than hitting on a 3+. You can put a unit of 6 in a Rhino with a Priest, Mistress, Hospitaller and a Canoness with the BoA. It's not cheap, but the entire Vanguard detachment fits in one box. Deploy out of LOS but still within your 4++ Cathedral, keep it behind your Repressors and Immolators after your first turn move and pop smoke. Turn two disembark everything, move straight in while the rhino lines up a side angle then charge their target with the rhino to soak overwatch. Save your re-roll that phase for your attempt at a Passion AoF on the Canoness and Vessel it out to the rest if necessary. Remember that Repentia have the MW stratagem if they get killed in the fight phase.
It's expensive at 311 points, and like most dedicated CC units, it can be tricky to use. 40K is still primarily a shooting game so that shouldn't be a surprise. Once your opponents learn what you have intended for them they will certainly try to kill it. It still fits neatly in the "lets see what this does" portion of my Lists and has the very real possibility of pressing the Delete button on whatever Knight your opponent put on the table in a turn. Something BSS will never be able to do. As far as requiring vehicles for mobility needing a fix. The fact that Sisters can afford to do is a strength, doubly so with the availability of the Repressor, not a weakness.
BBAP wrote: You already have units in the Sisters Codex that are more capable in CC than your average Battle Sister. In the case of Celestine and Repentia they're very killy indeed
Both of which got nerfed pretty hard, though Repentia at least had a points reduction to help counterbalance it-- they're still not very good, however.
But none of what you said is an actual argument against giving Celestians options. Celestians are a unit without a purpose right now. They fulfill no role. Very few people use them, and it's obvious why-- they don't really DO anything. I don't think over this entire thread you'll see a single person recommend you actually use celestians.
All I'm saying is give them back the role they used to have before it got taken away in fifth edition. Even in the role of "bodyguard", Celestians are purposeless right now, as the only HQ valuable enough to defend like that is too fast for them to keep up.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/02/17 16:24:26
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Well... yeah. It shouldn't be cheap. Look at all the abilities it has!
Repentia have never had issues killing things in close combat. Anything they hit will go away. Their problem has always been that they're too slow to dodge obstacles and too fragile to survive a turn of shooting with enough models remaining to matter. Your unit makes them better at killing stuff - which they're already really good at - but it doesn't make them any tougher or faster; in fact I'd argue using your other transports as a sabot for this unit actually hurts more than it helps because it puts more potential obstacles in your vicinity.
So, yeah. They're slow, predictable, and easy to defeat, either by dismounting and killing them or by simply denying them the opportunity to make the charge move they want to make. Shooty units are also slow and predictable, and deal much less damage than the Repentia, but it's almost impossible to stop shooty units attacking a target they want to attack. THis is one of the reasons I've been patiently asking for better long-range shooting options for Sisters since, like, 5th Edition.
As far as requiring vehicles for mobility needing a fix. The fact that Sisters can afford to do is a strength, doubly so with the availability of the Repressor, not a weakness.
In 5th Edition, when vehicles were functionally immortal, having 12 of them was exceptionally powerful, but in an era where vehicles can be plinked to death it's much less so, especially since you're giving up a lot of Sisters to fit the vehicle in.
If someone shows me how mech can work I'll concede the point, but from where I'm sitting mech Sisters in 8th just seems like the less economical and effective army build.
Melissia wrote: Both of which got nerfed pretty hard, though Repentia at least had a points reduction to help counterbalance it-- they're still not very good, however.
Celestine is a beast. She's had a very minor nerf because she was completely OP before, but she's still a beast. Repentia - see above.
But none of what you said is an actual argument against giving Celestians options. Celestians are a unit without a purpose right now. They fulfill no role. Very few people use them, and it's obvious why-- they don't really DO anything. I don't think over this entire thread you'll see a single person recommend you actually use celestians.
Celestians have always had this problem, since Codex: Witch Hunters even. Back in the days of the Force Org Chart you'd bring them for the extra Immolators and Meltaguns they unlocked, but once FOC went out they ceased to have a purpose.
You want to fix it by giving them close combat fightan magic. Okay. At the moment they're an S3 T3 unit so they're going to need some serious buffs if they want to hang as a CC unit, but what do you give up to fit that in? Their equipment is iconic, their rules are iconic - all except Bodyguard, but ditching that won't buy you enough points to pay for the significant upgrade Celestians need.
So, you tell me - what do you give Celestians to make them better at fightan, and how do you pay for it? Remember that it has to give them purpose, and, crucially, if it's to be a worthwhile redesign it has to actually make me want to bring them in an army. If you redesign them for CC and they're still not more worthwhile than Battle Sisters, Dominions or Retributors then the redesign was a waste of time.
While this is a bit wishlisty for a Tactics forum, if every Celestian had the same weapon options as the Celestian Superior (especially if these expand a bit with the new kits) we suddenly have a unit that has many different options that don't step directly on the toes of other Sororitas units.
True Grit Sisters that can fire bolters and then charge for 3 Chainsword attacks per model.
Power Maul Sisters that hit on 3+ with 2 S5/AP -1 attacks per model
Inferno or Plasma Pistol squads for tackling 2+ Save units
I thought something similar, and since I can't resist a good wish-list I wrote this. I think these Celestians complement the army; they're shooty enough that you could swap out a BSS for them without losing firepower, they're punchy enough that close combat is an option for killing stuff rather than a desperate last resort, they have some mobility, and most importantly they're still identifiably a Sisters of Battle unit. I even managed to work in a reference to Saint Praxedes xD
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/17 20:05:01
BBAP wrote: You want to fix it by giving them close combat fightan magic.
Never said anything about magic, ya overreacting doof
But at this point we're just wishlisting so meh, lost interest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/17 22:14:09
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I'm sitting here looking at a stash of metal Sisters, mostly boltgun infantry and a few specials/heavies, plus a full range of Seraphim. I'm hoping to help a friend sell them off and he's willing to go for US $2-3 per model, which feels like a good deal to me.
The collection lacks anything like enough upgrades to build a real army and is missing Canoness, Superiors, and the all-important stormbolters. There seem to be a few missing backpacks. Half of the Seraphim have been clipped from their bases (although I'd be willing to drill them for flight bases if that helps). There's a Mk I Immolator and a classic Exorcist, too.
It's about 75 models and two tanks... Someone might want them to fill out a Brigade, or with a few models from GW you could make a couple of Faithful 17 Battalions. I'm thinking US $150-200 for the lot. First, does that sound reasonable, and second, is anyone interested? I'll write up a formal Swap post when I get a proper inventory.
On the Tactics conversation currently ruuning about CC, I'll say I was underimpressed with both Celestians and Bloody Rose in my most recent game. I ran 7x Celestians in a Rhino with Canoness, Preacher, and Dialogus. They targeted a unit of Tzangors and a Sorcerer, got the charge and The Passion, but left half the Tzangors and the Sorceror with one wound at the cost of losing the Canoness. The following turn, the T-Sons reinforced with a Helbrute and a second Sorceror and I piled in two more 5x squads of Bloody Rose.
I broke the Tzangors in Morale and he fell back the two wounded Sorcerors, forcing me to fall back from the Helbrute and walk away with a trade of nearly 240 points in Bloody Rose and assorted support for the Tzangors, most of two Sorcerors, and half a Helbrute. It took some shooting to finish the job and didn't feel like I'd gotten the upper hand. I felt like that assortment (minus the Helbrute) should have been within the range of what Bloody Rose Celestians should be able to handle, but they choked.
I may try ditching the Celestians and running just 3x5 BSS and the Characters in 2 Rhinos. The jury is still out...
MacPhail wrote: There's a Mk I Immolator and a classic Exorcist, too.
If it's the forgeworld exorcist then that might go for decent money, they are somewhat rare outside of recasters. There was no 2nd edition exorcist so if it's on the old rhino it's just a conversion.
Aye. Ive never been impressed with Celestine. Think it might just be how she is with me. People keep saying shes a beast and amazing and a complete murderhobo especially in the index, bbut for me shes always been meh. Never made her points back in any game; opponents ignored her most games. So many whiffed attacks. I think she once managed to kill a primaris.
So seeing her as she is now and people still calling her a beast, just goes against what ive seen her do on my table. If it wasnt for the invo bubble, id have benched her. But that is just how she behaves with me.
Exos on the other hand, absolute murderfreakingmurderfacingmurdereersofmurderfacedom on my table.
Luck and the dice gods be straight up cooky dooks.
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