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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vineheart01 wrote:
it also invalidates things that are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill and the weapons meant to kill them anyway.

It makes no sense that a weapon that hurts a Landraider fairly well somehow doesnt hurt a generic terminator...i could argue its harder to HIT the terminator, but not wound it.


The wound mechanic does represent the probability of a glancing hit. The idea that while a weapon technically touched a target that it simply grazed it or didn't cause any notable damage.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Vineheart01 wrote:
it also invalidates things that are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill and the weapons meant to kill them anyway.

It makes no sense that a weapon that hurts a Landraider fairly well somehow doesnt hurt a generic terminator...i could argue its harder to HIT the terminator, but not wound it.


Exactly, it throws the sense of scale way off and the dumbest part is that they highlight that in the very article they can help shrug off lascannons which is ludicrous. GW should really either tone down the level of killiness with the amount of shots, damage and AP each army has (too late at this point IMO) or at the very least rely on actual statlines to properly reflect it rather than all the -1D and transhuman rules variants. Sadly, even with stats boosts in this edition, GW really hasn't shown any tact. The 2W boost for marines is increasingly irrelevant without extra protective rules due to D2 or better weapons with high AP being spammable by the top armies. Vehicles in general should have a higher wound ceiling and GW missed a golden opportunity to go higher in stats in general to help with granularity to precisely avoid the current issue we have now.

I digress though, since I think I'm probably going off topic.

I know Dred Mob isn't optimal at the moment, but assuming I tried to do a semi-competitive list with them, what would be the main Klan that I should be aiming for? I'm initially inclined to go for Goffs due to Big Mek BuzzGob's +1 to hit buff, but I'm not sure if its worth visiting any other Klan like Deffskullz.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

I am amazed anyone could think Boyz are a bad unit.

Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.

Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.

Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

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Made in us
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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I am amazed anyone could think Boyz are a bad unit.

Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.

Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.

Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.


Mechanicus, deldar, and whatever comes out next I bet lol. It’s more that kommandos/stormboyz are just better imo, not that boyz are terrible.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I am amazed anyone could think Boyz are a bad unit.

Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.

Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.

Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.


No offense Totalwar, but you've established yourself as not exactly a super competitive player to begin with in other threads and given that you're not even an Ork player, it's very presumptious of you to think that the majority agreement that Boyz aren't great are wrong somehow.

Let's go through your list.

Hit's on 3's...not exactly a big selling point when that's basically the bare minimum requirement for any CC unit (Celestian squads have WS3+, I wouldn't call them a powerhouse CC unit) and Orks don't have easy access to rerolls via auras or strats unlike other armies. Wounding marines on 3's. That's assuming they're Goffs (not Boyz specific) AND that they get the charge off. Otherwise it's just on 4's and even then it can be even worse against guys like Plague Marines or Immortals. I don't know what you're smoking, but boyz units are anything but chaff or throwaway units. 90 points a squad is a substantial amount of points that dies easily and has little damage output. 90 points give you a Megatrakk scrapjet, something that has waaay better shooting, mobility, CC and has Ramshackle and higher toughness. Reroll charge is across all of the Ork army and not a Boy specific unit that makes them strong. Likewise, advance and charge is not tied to boyz specifically and requires you to have a Warboss as your Warlord (usually you want a Speedboss instead) and have them call a WAAAGH!, it also only lasts for one turn, which is no guarantee that you'll make the charge. If you think a mob of them can kill most units in the game, I'm afraid in you're in for a very, very rude awakening, since boyz CC ability is pretty anemic even with the AP-1 choppas, at best you'll kill a few guys in a primaris intercessor squad, much less against dedicated CC units like Bladeguard and Incubi.

Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/15 20:48:49


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

 Grimskul wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I am amazed anyone could think Boyz are a bad unit.

Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.

Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.

Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.


No offense Totalwar, but you've established yourself as not exactly a super competitive player to begin with in other threads and given that you're not even an Ork player, it's very presumptious of you to think that the majority agreement that Boyz aren't great are wrong somehow.

Let's go through your list.

Hit's on 3's...not exactly a big selling point when that's basically the bare minimum requirement for any CC unit (Celestian squads have WS3+, I wouldn't call them a powerhouse CC unit) and Orks don't have easy access to rerolls via auras or strats unlike other armies. Wounding marines on 3's. That's assuming they're Goffs (not Boyz specific) AND that they get the charge off. Otherwise it's just on 4's and even then it can be even worse against guys like Plague Marines or Immortals. I don't know what you're smoking, but boyz units are anything but chaff or throwaway units. 90 points a squad is a substantial amount of points that dies easily and has little damage output. 90 points give you a Megatrakk scrapjet, something that has waaay better shooting, mobility, CC and has Ramshackle and higher toughness. Reroll charge is across all of the Ork army and not a Boy specific unit that makes them strong. Likewise, advance and charge is not tied to boyz specifically and requires you to have a Warboss as your Warlord (usually you want a Speedboss instead) and have them call a WAAAGH!, it also only lasts for one turn, which is no guarantee that you'll make the charge. If you think a mob of them can kill most units in the game, I'm afraid in you're in for a very, very rude awakening, since boyz CC ability is pretty anemic even with the AP-1 choppas, at best you'll kill a few guys in a primaris intercessor squad, much less against dedicated CC units like Bladeguard and Incubi.

Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.


90 points is not a lot for a unit that can do all of that. It’s bad because it can’t kill a unit of ten plague marines in a single turn? A unit specifically intended to be tanks and difficult to kill as well being massively more costly? 90 points is nothing. Ork Boyz are a chaff unit, they shouldn’t be deleting full strength marine squads for the same reason Guard infantry squads shouldn’t gun them down.

If Celestians were T5 had four to five str five attacks and -1 ap and cost 9 points then yeah they would be an auto take. Id happily trade the worthless bolter and armour for that. You’ve got one unit that can kill most units in the game and other a t3 unit with bolters; so scary.







This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/15 21:15:50



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

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III Legion 5000pts
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Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in ca
Waaagh! Warbiker





So let’s say orks kept all their army special rules from 8th, and all our buff characters stayed the same, and boyz were back at 8 points. Top tier stuff. Without all that it’s kinda meh in comparison to all our other stuff that wasn’t built to be buffed up.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I am amazed anyone could think Boyz are a bad unit.

Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.

Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.

Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.


No offense Totalwar, but you've established yourself as not exactly a super competitive player to begin with in other threads and given that you're not even an Ork player, it's very presumptious of you to think that the majority agreement that Boyz aren't great are wrong somehow.

Let's go through your list.

Hit's on 3's...not exactly a big selling point when that's basically the bare minimum requirement for any CC unit (Celestian squads have WS3+, I wouldn't call them a powerhouse CC unit) and Orks don't have easy access to rerolls via auras or strats unlike other armies. Wounding marines on 3's. That's assuming they're Goffs (not Boyz specific) AND that they get the charge off. Otherwise it's just on 4's and even then it can be even worse against guys like Plague Marines or Immortals. I don't know what you're smoking, but boyz units are anything but chaff or throwaway units. 90 points a squad is a substantial amount of points that dies easily and has little damage output. 90 points give you a Megatrakk scrapjet, something that has waaay better shooting, mobility, CC and has Ramshackle and higher toughness. Reroll charge is across all of the Ork army and not a Boy specific unit that makes them strong. Likewise, advance and charge is not tied to boyz specifically and requires you to have a Warboss as your Warlord (usually you want a Speedboss instead) and have them call a WAAAGH!, it also only lasts for one turn, which is no guarantee that you'll make the charge. If you think a mob of them can kill most units in the game, I'm afraid in you're in for a very, very rude awakening, since boyz CC ability is pretty anemic even with the AP-1 choppas, at best you'll kill a few guys in a primaris intercessor squad, much less against dedicated CC units like Bladeguard and Incubi.

Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.


90 points is not a lot for a unit that can do all of that. It’s bad because it can’t kill a unit of ten plague marines in a single turn? A unit specifically intended to be tanks and difficult to kill as well being massively more costly? 90 points is nothing. Ork Boyz are a chaff unit, they shouldn’t be deleting full strength marine squads for the same reason Guard infantry squads shouldn’t gun them down.

If Celestians were T5 had four to five str five attacks and -1 ap and cost 9 points then yeah they would be an auto take. Id happily trade the worthless bolter and armour for that. You’ve got one unit that can kill most units in the game and other a t3 unit with bolters; so scary.



Firstly, I think you're missing the point. Boyz CAN'T do all of what you're saying, in part or at all without deliberate army structuring which has opportunity costs that restrict what you can include for the rest of the list. So if you want a buggy list, you will be neutering your vehicle damage output for a negligible advance and charge ability for them if you want boyz that are able to get stuck in and they just don't synergize very well with buggy lists since they just present a target for anti-infantry weapons. If you are building an alpha strike CC list, you won't do anything with boyz barring maybe trukk boyz at best (who can't be Goffs mind you and brings up their points base to 160 total with the mandatory trukk added in) who are more there to tie up enemy units rather than dealing damage. Even then it makes more sense to invest your points into stormboyz or kommandos instead who don't have to pay for a trukk (another 70 points) to get mobility. As a result, within the context of the Ork codex, boyz don't fulfill a function that isn't done by others much more cost effectively and differently (stormboyz/kommandos) and the Green Tide archetype doesn't work very well anymore due to GW crippling all of our morale mitigation abilities and losing the Endless Green Tide Strat. We don't even have the attack bonus for being at 20+ boyz in a unit now.

Also, thanks for throwing in a strawman argument. I never said boyz should be able to take down 10 plague marines on their own, but the way you're describing them in your original post makes it seem like you pooped your pants over some big scary boogeyman. I can't imagine how much you would REEEEE hearing about how much Dark Eldar Wyches can trade up on units or how Deathwing Knights have perma-transhuman. If your list can't handle a unit with 11 T5 wounds in total and a 6+ save, I can't imagine how much of a problem you would have with pretty much any army in 9th ed, which would explain your inability to handle remotely competitive games. A REAL chaff unit is like a guardsmen squad, that has a lot of mobility thanks to orders and acts as a screen to protect tanks or characters or performs actions in the backfield thanks to cheap unit nature. For only 55 points that can put out a respectable amount of lasgun fire if given orders as well. I'd take that honestly if it was option instead of grots or boyz in my list, even without the order support.

Furthermore, your very bad attempt at making Celestians seem better by porting some of the Ork stats is laughable, given that almost no real Sisters player worth their salt would take them when you have Sacrestants for proper bodyguard protection, Repentia for favourable trading and units like Crusaders to be cheap objective grabbers/and to perform actions. If you want mass CC S5 attacks, you just take either Arco-Flagellants or Penitent Engines/Mortifiers. Also, you're neglecting the fact that you have a 6++ invuln save built in, that can be buffed by different things in your army. Come back to me when you roll for 6+ (or don't roll at all given that guys like marines basically always have a minimum of -1AP to their weapons thanks to doctrines) saves on a T5 unit and then fail morale, you'll notice Boyz are a lot more fragile than what they seem to be.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/15 22:39:56


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Bonde wrote:
It could be fun to try using a larger mob of 6 MegaNobz as Trukkboyz, put them in a Trukk and just fire them at a stubborn enemy unit on an objective
Also since they are Trukkboyz, all their custom shootas will hit on a 4+ That is almost a respectable amount of Dakka!


At normal range 6 Meganobz with trukkboyz boost would be 24 shots...and 12 hits at S4, no AP. So for the low cost of 280pts you have the same ranged fire power potential at 18' range as....9 Tac Marines Not exactly impressive.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I am amazed anyone could think Boyz are a bad unit.
Hit on 3s, wounding marines on 3s, attacks for days, -1ap. On a chaff throwaway unit that’s got T5 so can negate most normal guns and flamers. Re roll charge. Advance and charge. A mob of them can kill most units in the game before you even look at strats/leaders to buff them further.

Iam not sure what I am missing here exactly. You’re on a very small board and he can get to you in two turns. It not like you’re getting four turns of blasting him with bolters. Whilst if he charges he kills you.

Sure there might be some 4D chess Mechanicum unit that can kill a 100 models a turn it has reroll 2 plus ignore damage but that’s not a fair comparison.


That is because you don't understand orkz Boyz are a terrible unit. Only Goffs wound on 3s and only if they successfully charged that turn. At 90pts for a Barebones mob, they aren't a chaff throwaway unit as already mentioned. All orkz get the re-roll charge, they only get advance and charge if you take a warboss, hes alive, and you call your normal WAAAAGH for 1 turn. As far as killing potential. A Goff Mob of 9 boyz and a Nob on the charge and during a WAAAGH turn do 41 attacks, that works out to 34 hits, 22 wounds and 11dmg vs a Space Marine statline. So 90pts of CC troops inflict 5 casualties to Marines. That is pretty good, but all of this assumes a lot of buffs, success and the enemy letting them get into CC without being harassed/shot to death.

As far as speed, they are Movement 5, advance averages 3.5 so over 2 turns you manage to move 17' which puts you in charge range at the end of turn 2. Those 5 Marines who would die in CC also average 2 dead Orkz per turn at 24' range and nobody is calling Tac Marines a good unit.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


90 points is not a lot for a unit that can do all of that. It’s bad because it can’t kill a unit of ten plague marines in a single turn? A unit specifically intended to be tanks and difficult to kill as well being massively more costly? 90 points is nothing. Ork Boyz are a chaff unit, they shouldn’t be deleting full strength marine squads for the same reason Guard infantry squads shouldn’t gun them down.

If Celestians were T5 had four to five str five attacks and -1 ap and cost 9 points then yeah they would be an auto take. Id happily trade the worthless bolter and armour for that. You’ve got one unit that can kill most units in the game and other a t3 unit with bolters; so scary.


90pts is basically 4.5% of your army, its a meaningful portion to say the least, and is definitely not a chaff/throwaway unit. I do like how you compare those CC Goff Boyz to Celestians. Let us make a better comparison, how do Ork Boyz stand up against Sister Repentia. Who for 96pts get (4 repentia and a superior) 12 attacks at S6 -4AP 2dmg that hit on 4s with full re-rolls and +1 to wound as well as 6 attacks at S3 -3AP that have +1 to wound and on the charge itself they get to roll 3D6 and discard the lowest die. Those seem to do enough dmg to kill 8-0 Space Marines a turn instead of 5.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz




North Carolina

I think there's an infantry spam build in this book that is competitive, but I'm not sure what it is yet. Right now I'm playing a DS infantry list with a bit of support from trukk boy meganobz, squig buggies, koptas, and bikes. No one around me plays net lists, but we have some good players with good armies (Ad Mech, lots of Marines, Grey Knights, etc.).

If anyone's interest in giving it a go this is what I've been playing:

Spoiler:

Blood Axe Patrol (-2 CP)
Warboss - PK, kombi scorcha, Killa Klaw, Brutal But Kunnin (-2 CP)
10 Grots
3 Bikes
3 Koptas - 150
10 Kommandos
Grot Mega Tank w/ 7 KMB

Deathskulls Outrider (-3 CP)
Mega Armored Warboss - cybork body (-1 CP)
3 MANz (trukk boyz)
5 Burna boyz
5 Stormboyz
5 Stormboyz
Squigbuggy
Squigbuggy
Squigbuggy
Trukk

Deathskulls Vanguard
Mega Armored Warboss (krushin armor, ard as nails)
3 MANz (trukk boyz)
5 Tankbustas - bomb squig, tank hammer
5 Burna Boyz
5 Kommandos
5 Kommandos
Trukk
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.




90 points is also the cost of 5 Blood Claws. 10 T4 3+ save wounds with better morale than boyz. Hitting on 2s everytime unless already stuck in combat, 4 attacks on the charge at S4 AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Also BS3+, which can also contribute a little.

How many Blood Claws do you see these days?


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Also, this is specifically a thread for competitive usage of Orks, so being ignorant of the actual top meta units just because you don't see them in your local area is not a reason to discount the overall competitive picture.




90 points is also the cost of 5 Blood Claws. 10 T4 3+ save wounds with better morale than boyz. Hitting on 2s everytime unless already stuck in combat, 4 attacks on the charge at S4 AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Also BS3+, which can also contribute a little.

How many Blood Claws do you see these days?


That's actually a fair trade between orks and Blood Claws. One, the Blood Claws, practically has twice more endurance thanks to their armor save, but twice less damage due to their twice lower number.

As for the earlier mentioned Repentia which deal almost twice more damage, especially against multi wound infantry, but remain almost twice more fragile due to their minuscule toughness of 3. Plus, Boyz are objective secure which is still a notable advantage to take in consideration.

I don't think Ork boyz compare that poorly to either of these units, at least on paper, against certain opponents, some units are of course better, notably the Repentia against Space Marines (but not so much against Eldars of all types for example), but it remains a fairly good comparison.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/16 13:55:07


 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

as with majority of 'bad units' in 40k right now, its not that the unit itself is terrible its that there is so much obviously better alternatives. Speaking clearly within one's own codex here.

Boyz arent unplayable bad by any stretch of the word. Nobody is claiming that. The issue is other than the basic requirements for objectives and meatshields for bigger things there are so much better options.
They arent that durable, they are only mildly killy. For pennies more you get Kommandoz which are like what about twice as effective than basic boyz? Thats the issue.

Orks arent the only one with that problem, i'd actually say Necrons are probably the only one that doesnt have the issue all that much that also isnt broken good (admech/deldar troops).
Hell, look at marines. How many basic primaris or tactical marines do you see? Enough to fill the slots because they suck compared to the rest of the army.

Its one reason ive been dabbling in OnePageRules lately, i'm tired of troops feeling like a tax not a tactic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/16 15:36:42


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




epronovost wrote:


As for the earlier mentioned Repentia which deal almost twice more damage, especially against multi wound infantry, but remain almost twice more fragile due to their minuscule toughness of 3. Plus, Boyz are objective secure which is still a notable advantage to take in consideration.

I don't think Ork boyz compare that poorly to either of these units, at least on paper, against certain opponents, some units are of course better, notably the Repentia against Space Marines (but not so much against Eldars of all types for example), but it remains a fairly good comparison.


Repentia are T3 yes, but they also have a 6++ Invuln and a 5+++ FNP

10 Bolter HITS do 6.66 wounds to Repentia and 3.33 to Boyz. After Saves the Repentia lose 3.7, the Boyz lose 2.7 So, are boyz more durable? yeah, but not by a lot and definitely not by
twice more fragile due to their minuscule toughness of 3
, and especially once you factor in morale which the repentia don't really give a damn about, but those boyz are now failing morale and losing models on a 5+

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy
Thanks to all who advised me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/16 16:43:37


 
   
Made in nl
Grovelin' Grot




DoktaRoksta wrote:
I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy
Thanks to all who advised me.

Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .

Was happy to contribute though.

None the less care to share your story?
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




In the subject of boys, just going within codex Orks themselves can easily shoot down 10 boyz, which means other shooting armies are not afraid of boys at all.

Further, the other problem with boys is the price increase, if they had remained at 8 points players might be taking them, but at nine it just pushes them into "meh" territory

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 05:27:39


 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






I think next CA boyz will go back to 8 points. They have new models

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 06:29:13


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Forceride wrote:
DoktaRoksta wrote:
I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy
Thanks to all who advised me.

Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .

Was happy to contribute though.

None the less care to share your story?


Sure, after the last experience I limited the game to 500pts to allow us the time to complete and stop him spamming OP units. I turned up with my heavier patrol which I’ll post in the next post. He also put out way too much scenery to slow me down but it worked against him.

He brought 3 units of 5 intercessors (1 with bolt rifles, one with plasma incinerators, one assault.), one bike and one lieutenant.
I got first turn for once!
I deployed all my units on one side of the board behind a building, Mek gun (KMK) in the centre, and deffdread (4claw, shokka hull) on a teleporter.
He made 3 crucial mistakes, he didn’t think about strategy or stratagems as he didn’t need them last game, he was terrified of my Mek gun (which missed every shot) so focussed on hiding rather than objectives and another which will become clear later

I advanced my squighog boyz and nob towards mid table objective, moved my boyz and warboss out of LOS towards the same objective. Teleported my dread near his Bolter intecessors and charged. Fired my Mek gun which missed. Shot what I could and scored zero wounds. Dread and marines fought and I took 2 intercessors. He scored 2 wounds.

He then advanced his bike to the other mid table objective and secured. Sent his assault intercessors toward the other mid table objective to meet my squighog boyz. They were strung out between scenery though so he left himself weak as he could only hit with 1 or 2 models. He also fell back with the bolter intercessors. He shot at my boyz with the bike and killed 4 but I passed ld test. He then shot at my dread with the bolters and plasma incinerator units and the lieutenant with volkite pistol, taking it to 1 wound.

Turn 2 I moved my squighog boyz to mid table objective, shot at his assault intercessors doing little damage, I then charged them. I moved my dread towards the plasma incinerators and charged them (hoping it would explode or shock them). I also moved my boyz towards the objective and out of LOS of the bike. I fought his assault intercessors with my squighog boyz, the MW from the nob Ead Smash and Headwoppas killchoppa, plus stikkas, plus jaw attacks wiped them. I fought the plasma incinerators and did no damage with my dread. Mek gun shot again and missed again.

He barely moved, hit my dread and killed it and was very pleased with himself. Having held an objective for a turn.

Turn 3 I moved my squighog boyz to objective 2 and engaged his bike. Moved my boyz to the objective I had with the squighog boyz and held it for the rest of the game. I charged his bike and killed it. Shot Mek gun and missed again, It did nothing for the rest of the game.

He moved his intercessors out of LOS to avoid the Mek gun.

Turn 4 I moved my squighog boyz to his hidden intercessors and engaged his plasma incinerator marines. Wiped them bar one mainly with the nob. He fell back and shot with all remaining units taking 2 squighog boyz. He kept falling back to shoot though and so I kept charging to get the MW from Ead smash taking out stragglers with stikkas shooting. I wiped 2 units of marines and a lieutenant by repeatedly charging and held a mid table objective for 3 turns to his one.

Overall the squighog boyz were my mvp particularly the nob. Mek gun killed nothing but kept his head down, the dread didn’t earn his points but also panicked him in turn 1. Shokka hull did nothing, killchoppa was good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forceride wrote:
DoktaRoksta wrote:
I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy
Thanks to all who advised me.

Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .

Was happy to contribute though.

None the less care to share your story?


Spoiler:

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Orks) [29 PL, 500pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Clan Kultur: Goffs

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ +

Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Super Cybork Body, Warlord

+ Troops +

Boyz [5 PL, 100pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack +

Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, 65pts]: Headwoppa's Killchoppa

Squighog Boyz [4 PL, 75pts]
. 3x Squighog Boy: 3x Saddlegit Weapons, 3x Squighog Jaws, 3x Stikka

+ Heavy Support +

Deff Dreads [7 PL, 100pts]: Shokka Hull
. Deff Dread: Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw

Mek Gunz [3 PL, 45pts]
. Mek Gun: Smasha Gun

++ Total: [29 PL, 500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


My list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 09:37:53


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Well played, good job

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Jidmah wrote:
Well played, good job


Thanks, I annoyed him so much he mentioned playing Drukhari next time
Any tips against Drukhari much appreciated
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

DoktaRoksta wrote:
Forceride wrote:
DoktaRoksta wrote:
I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy
Thanks to all who advised me.

Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .

Was happy to contribute though.

None the less care to share your story?


Sure, after the last experience I limited the game to 500pts to allow us the time to complete and stop him spamming OP units. I turned up with my heavier patrol which I’ll post in the next post. He also put out way too much scenery to slow me down but it worked against him.

He brought 3 units of 5 intercessors (1 with bolt rifles, one with plasma incinerators, one assault.), one bike and one lieutenant.
I got first turn for once!
I deployed all my units on one side of the board behind a building, Mek gun (KMK) in the centre, and deffdread (4claw, shokka hull) on a teleporter.
He made 3 crucial mistakes, he didn’t think about strategy or stratagems as he didn’t need them last game, he was terrified of my Mek gun (which missed every shot) so focussed on hiding rather than objectives and another which will become clear later

I advanced my squighog boyz and nob towards mid table objective, moved my boyz and warboss out of LOS towards the same objective. Teleported my dread near his Bolter intecessors and charged. Fired my Mek gun which missed. Shot what I could and scored zero wounds. Dread and marines fought and I took 2 intercessors. He scored 2 wounds.

He then advanced his bike to the other mid table objective and secured. Sent his assault intercessors toward the other mid table objective to meet my squighog boyz. They were strung out between scenery though so he left himself weak as he could only hit with 1 or 2 models. He also fell back with the bolter intercessors. He shot at my boyz with the bike and killed 4 but I passed ld test. He then shot at my dread with the bolters and plasma incinerator units and the lieutenant with volkite pistol, taking it to 1 wound.

Turn 2 I moved my squighog boyz to mid table objective, shot at his assault intercessors doing little damage, I then charged them. I moved my dread towards the plasma incinerators and charged them (hoping it would explode or shock them). I also moved my boyz towards the objective and out of LOS of the bike. I fought his assault intercessors with my squighog boyz, the MW from the nob Ead Smash and Headwoppas killchoppa, plus stikkas, plus jaw attacks wiped them. I fought the plasma incinerators and did no damage with my dread. Mek gun shot again and missed again.

He barely moved, hit my dread and killed it and was very pleased with himself. Having held an objective for a turn.

Turn 3 I moved my squighog boyz to objective 2 and engaged his bike. Moved my boyz to the objective I had with the squighog boyz and held it for the rest of the game. I charged his bike and killed it. Shot Mek gun and missed again, It did nothing for the rest of the game.

He moved his intercessors out of LOS to avoid the Mek gun.

Turn 4 I moved my squighog boyz to his hidden intercessors and engaged his plasma incinerator marines. Wiped them bar one mainly with the nob. He fell back and shot with all remaining units taking 2 squighog boyz. He kept falling back to shoot though and so I kept charging to get the MW from Ead smash taking out stragglers with stikkas shooting. I wiped 2 units of marines and a lieutenant by repeatedly charging and held a mid table objective for 3 turns to his one.

Overall the squighog boyz were my mvp particularly the nob. Mek gun killed nothing but kept his head down, the dread didn’t earn his points but also panicked him in turn 1. Shokka hull did nothing, killchoppa was good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forceride wrote:
DoktaRoksta wrote:
I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy
Thanks to all who advised me.

Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .

Was happy to contribute though.

None the less care to share your story?


Spoiler:

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Orks) [29 PL, 500pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Clan Kultur: Goffs

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ +

Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Super Cybork Body, Warlord

+ Troops +

Boyz [5 PL, 100pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack +

Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, 65pts]: Headwoppa's Killchoppa

Squighog Boyz [4 PL, 75pts]
. 3x Squighog Boy: 3x Saddlegit Weapons, 3x Squighog Jaws, 3x Stikka

+ Heavy Support +

Deff Dreads [7 PL, 100pts]: Shokka Hull
. Deff Dread: Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw

Mek Gunz [3 PL, 45pts]
. Mek Gun: Smasha Gun

++ Total: [29 PL, 500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


My list.


wait.. you tellyported your dreads turn 1 or did i misunderstand? you cant do that if you did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 12:35:05


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Beardedragon wrote:
DoktaRoksta wrote:
Forceride wrote:
DoktaRoksta wrote:
I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy
Thanks to all who advised me.

Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .

Was happy to contribute though.

None the less care to share your story?


Sure, after the last experience I limited the game to 500pts to allow us the time to complete and stop him spamming OP units. I turned up with my heavier patrol which I’ll post in the next post. He also put out way too much scenery to slow me down but it worked against him.

He brought 3 units of 5 intercessors (1 with bolt rifles, one with plasma incinerators, one assault.), one bike and one lieutenant.
I got first turn for once!
I deployed all my units on one side of the board behind a building, Mek gun (KMK) in the centre, and deffdread (4claw, shokka hull) on a teleporter.
He made 3 crucial mistakes, he didn’t think about strategy or stratagems as he didn’t need them last game, he was terrified of my Mek gun (which missed every shot) so focussed on hiding rather than objectives and another which will become clear later

I advanced my squighog boyz and nob towards mid table objective, moved my boyz and warboss out of LOS towards the same objective. Teleported my dread near his Bolter intecessors and charged. Fired my Mek gun which missed. Shot what I could and scored zero wounds. Dread and marines fought and I took 2 intercessors. He scored 2 wounds.

He then advanced his bike to the other mid table objective and secured. Sent his assault intercessors toward the other mid table objective to meet my squighog boyz. They were strung out between scenery though so he left himself weak as he could only hit with 1 or 2 models. He also fell back with the bolter intercessors. He shot at my boyz with the bike and killed 4 but I passed ld test. He then shot at my dread with the bolters and plasma incinerator units and the lieutenant with volkite pistol, taking it to 1 wound.

Turn 2 I moved my squighog boyz to mid table objective, shot at his assault intercessors doing little damage, I then charged them. I moved my dread towards the plasma incinerators and charged them (hoping it would explode or shock them). I also moved my boyz towards the objective and out of LOS of the bike. I fought his assault intercessors with my squighog boyz, the MW from the nob Ead Smash and Headwoppas killchoppa, plus stikkas, plus jaw attacks wiped them. I fought the plasma incinerators and did no damage with my dread. Mek gun shot again and missed again.

He barely moved, hit my dread and killed it and was very pleased with himself. Having held an objective for a turn.

Turn 3 I moved my squighog boyz to objective 2 and engaged his bike. Moved my boyz to the objective I had with the squighog boyz and held it for the rest of the game. I charged his bike and killed it. Shot Mek gun and missed again, It did nothing for the rest of the game.

He moved his intercessors out of LOS to avoid the Mek gun.

Turn 4 I moved my squighog boyz to his hidden intercessors and engaged his plasma incinerator marines. Wiped them bar one mainly with the nob. He fell back and shot with all remaining units taking 2 squighog boyz. He kept falling back to shoot though and so I kept charging to get the MW from Ead smash taking out stragglers with stikkas shooting. I wiped 2 units of marines and a lieutenant by repeatedly charging and held a mid table objective for 3 turns to his one.

Overall the squighog boyz were my mvp particularly the nob. Mek gun killed nothing but kept his head down, the dread didn’t earn his points but also panicked him in turn 1. Shokka hull did nothing, killchoppa was good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forceride wrote:
DoktaRoksta wrote:
I played my buddy who gotcha’ed me last time. I tabled him in 4 turns, he wasn’t happy
Thanks to all who advised me.

Ahaha, for some reason i don't feel sry for him, i will play the smallest .

Was happy to contribute though.

None the less care to share your story?


Spoiler:

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Orks) [29 PL, 500pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Clan Kultur: Goffs

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ +

Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Super Cybork Body, Warlord

+ Troops +

Boyz [5 PL, 100pts]
. Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack +

Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, 65pts]: Headwoppa's Killchoppa

Squighog Boyz [4 PL, 75pts]
. 3x Squighog Boy: 3x Saddlegit Weapons, 3x Squighog Jaws, 3x Stikka

+ Heavy Support +

Deff Dreads [7 PL, 100pts]: Shokka Hull
. Deff Dread: Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw

Mek Gunz [3 PL, 45pts]
. Mek Gun: Smasha Gun

++ Total: [29 PL, 500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


My list.


wait.. you tellyported your dreads turn 1 or did i misunderstand? you cant do that if you did.


I can’t exactly remember if it was turn 1 or two. We’re both newbies (me more than him) so we are both butchering the rules but learning as we go along.
I wasn’t aware however that I couldn’t do it turn 1 so thanks for letting me know. So what’s the rule? From turn 2 onward?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






DoktaRoksta wrote:
I can’t exactly remember if it was turn 1 or two. We’re both newbies (me more than him) so we are both butchering the rules but learning as we go along.
I wasn’t aware however that I couldn’t do it turn 1 so thanks for letting me know. So what’s the rule? From turn 2 onward?


Correct. The rules is a bit difficult to spot, as it's part of the mission pack.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 addnid wrote:
I think next CA boyz will go back to 8 points. They have new models


Two problems with that. 1: I don't see GW reducing the price of Boyz. They have been on an constant trend of making things more expensive, not less. And especially with Spam/horde troops they've been increasing cost. and of course 2: It wouldn't matter if they did.


ATM the main problem isn't that boyz are 9ppm, its that they suck. Lets go biggest example to illustrate this. Lets say you take 30 Boyz right now, i'm going to kill 6 of them and almost guarantee a failed morale check to make you lose another 5 to morale/attrition. You just lost 99pts but I only had to kill 54pts to make you lose that much. So Again, I killed 54pts of Boyz and you lost 99pts total. Space that over 3 mobz of boyz and I kill 162pts but you end up losing 297. I've killed 15% of your entire army turn 1 by simply killing 18 boyz.

Now, lets reduce the price to a more affordable 8ppm. Same math plays out because none of the base rules have changed. I still kill 6 per mob to make you fail morale, you still lose 5 more to morale/attrition but now its me killing 48pts and you losing 88pts total. At full scale (3 mobz of 30) that is 144pts killed but 264pts lost total.

Dropping price by 1ppm saves you a whopping 33pts in the scenario above. It reduces the cost of my Over priced Trukk Boyz from 160pts to 150pts. To put it bluntly, it wouldn't be enough for me to take more or bigger mobz and at best it would change out some peoples mandatory troop tax from 50pts of grots to 80pts of Orkz.

To make boyz competitive there are really just 3 general options.

1: Make them cheap enough that morale losses don't matter. At 7ppm they might be there, at 6pts they would definitely be there. But then you go to problem that players will revert to Horde style which GW is doing their best to kill. At 2kpts if Boyz were 6ppm players would spam 180-240 of them. Who cares if you lose 5 to morale per mob turn 1, that is only 240pts and to do that your opponent had to kill 48 Boyz in 8 mobz, a lot harder proposition than 18 in 3 mobz

2: Make them even more durable/deadly so that players are willing to take the risk of losing models to morale for the possibility of inflicting more dmg OR because they in turn soak up more enemy firepower.

3: Fix their competitive issues at their current price point without over doing it. IE, Fix Morale. You would also have to adjust their buffs as an issue as well. Da Jump got nerfed, Assault from Deepstrike/teleport the same, KFF is weaker, Painboy/boss is too expensive and doesn't do enough and the Warboss aura isn't that great 10 boyz go from 20 hits to 25 hits with +1 to hit. Against a Marine that is a difference of 1.25 extra dmg, so a full mob of 30 gets a whopping 3.75 extra dmg for being near a warboss....

3A: For Shoota boyz...you could literally DOUBLE their current firepower and they still wouldn't be that competitive. Think about that. ATM 10 Shoota boyz average 1.1dmg vs Marines or 2.9 vs Imperial Guardsmen...at 18' range. If you DOUBLED their firepower they still would likely not be able to shoot turn 1 thanks to limited range, but at that point they would manage to kill a Marine in 1 shooting phase or almost 6 guardsmen, and at Half range (good luck) it would jump to 3.3 dmg vs Marines and 8.8 vs Guard.

Conversely you could just give Shoota boyz +1BS which wouldn't be enough still, but you could then just give their guns +1 shot and it would be acceptable dmg output. 10 Shoota boyz at that point would be putting out 2.5/3.3 dmg to Marines at Full and Dakka range and 6.6/8.8 VS Guardsmen.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
Conversely you could just give Shoota boyz +1BS which wouldn't be enough still, but you could then just give their guns +1 shot and it would be acceptable dmg output. 10 Shoota boyz at that point would be putting out 2.5/3.3 dmg to Marines at Full and Dakka range and 6.6/8.8 VS Guardsmen.


I would have said give shootas dakka 2/4 and give shoota boyz a BS of 4+ at half range and make them 8 pts as a buff for indeed, right now, they are useless.

For Choppa boyz, I would have been tempted to make a sacrilege and raise their armor to a 5+. It might not make a big difference to most, but saving an extra boyz here and there could be interesting. Lower their price to 8 pts too and you got something that can reasonably be used to bully a weakened unit of a point and have a chance of actually holding it provided nothing actually powerful opens up on them.

But that's another debate. The return of a few cheap stratagem for boyz would be interesting like a temporary increase to defense or offense like a "shoot twice" strat for shoota boyz that cost 1 CP, a moral strat for a 1 CP that rests upon the current mob rule like a "ignore negative modifier to moral if 6 inches away from another mob of orks above 50%". That sort of things could also be interesting for the poor boyz.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I don't agree with every detail, but in general I think Semper is right.

In regards to 1) I think that killing off the green tide play style was the right thing to do, as it has overshadowed any other build for multiple editions now and kept many units out of competitive play. It also required new players to spend a LOT of money on just boyz before they could start actually playing orks, while today you can easily
In addition, an army build out of kommadoz, storm boyz, burnas and trukk boyz looks a lot like a green tide, but still plays vastly different because the different specialist boyz actually have different abilities, strengths and weakness. It actually feels like playing orks rather than playing boyz

2) I don't think this would work. Currently we just have too many units standing on the same design space. Changing boyz to be better would just knock one of the other units out of the spotlight. Which would then just lead back to people spamming boyz.
I think the only way of fixing boyz without going back to the old "boyz before toyz" problem is by giving them something that can't just be slapped on every mob you buy - for example a stratagem or specialist mob. 'ard boyz, for example...

3) You should just be able to mitigate morale in a way that allows counter-play from your opponent. For example nobz could have an aura that substracts 1 from attrition tests, completely preventing attrition casualties as long as you have mob rule.

3a) Shoota boyz should just be a specialist mob or a separate datasheet at this point. After 5 editions of failing to balance them against choppa boyz, one should think they might finally have learned their lesson.

Last but not least, I think that GW will put much more effort into pushing beast snagga boyz into the spotlight than regular boyz. It's fairly clear that the primary driver for new boyz was reducing the sprue count for the combat patrol box, while also silencing those crying for new sculpts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 15:09:23


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in eu
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Afrodactyl wrote:
I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.


I like this. I was amazed yesterday when I had to take an unmodified morale test in the unit I had screening my warboss.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Afrodactyl wrote:
I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.


Mitigate is not the same as ignore. Any mechanic that allows you to ignore moral is a bad one, so there should absolutely not be a fearless aura in any army.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
 
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