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tulun wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
D-Cannons are D3, and it was one of the examples given. For D3 it just means you always get three against any unit that's 6 or more.

Yeah by the wording is 3 attacks, not a 3 on the die... that's interesting.

That makes weird things like thunderfire cannons basically not getting any benefit at all (4d3 means you're minimum is 4 anyway), but that breakpoint at 11+ models turns that gak bonkers.

Seems like 6-10 models will usually be okay, and that single die, d6 blast weapons are the biggest beneficiaries of this rule.

man alive though, it'll be bad to be an 11+ squad.

Ummm if its result 3 minimum and not roll then thunderfire is 12 vs 6+ models? Or what did i misread?

Or is it combined total and not individual dice? Well that helps vs tfc. Less so vs leman russ as both d6 are separate attacks anyway

tulun wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
D-Cannons are D3, and it was one of the examples given. For D3 it just means you always get three against any unit that's 6 or more.

Yeah by the wording is 3 attacks, not a 3 on the die... that's interesting.

That makes weird things like thunderfire cannons basically not getting any benefit at all (4d3 means you're minimum is 4 anyway), but that breakpoint at 11+ models turns that gak bonkers.

Seems like 6-10 models will usually be okay, and that single die, d6 blast weapons are the biggest beneficiaries of this rule.

man alive though, it'll be bad to be an 11+ squad.

I thought Thunderfire canons would get their 12 shots (4*3) out for any 6+ model target. Strong yes, but how many points would that make them then ?

Edit; yes what Tneva said

For points with gw price drop is as likely as increase

The article says 3 attacks minimum, not a minimum of 3 on the die.

tulun wrote:
The article says 3 attacks minimum, not a minimum of 3 on the die.

Ya, I keep feeling like I'm in some weird alternate reality because of the way some peoples math is today. Minimum on 3d3 shots would be 3 shots, not 9.

Kinda sucks that units that have a 10 man base size are stuck with being vulnerable with this change. We'll have to see what cover mechanics can help mitigate some of the increased damage the units are taking, since Grots are going to have to really bank on being short to survive shooting otherwise.

 Grimskul wrote:
Kinda sucks that units that have a 10 man base size are stuck with being vulnerable with this change. We'll have to see what cover mechanics can help mitigate some of the increased damage the units are taking, since Grots are going to have to really bank on being short to survive shooting otherwise.

10 good. 11 bad

 Haasbioroid wrote:

tulun wrote:
The article says 3 attacks minimum, not a minimum of 3 on the die.

Ya, I keep feeling like I'm in some weird alternate reality because of the way some peoples math is today. Minimum on 3d3 shots would be 3 shots, not 9.

It could be they actually mean each die knowing GW, but as written this won't really help weapons that already have high minimums.

Based on what they were saying in the livestream, I wonder if they meant each DIE, as they were talking about how nasty Volcano cannons are against intercessors.

tneva82 wrote:
So far terrain rules they have previewed are a) what has been in use for years b) help msu more than horde. Need huge change.

Also doubtful outflank is holy grail. Orks already have tellyporta that doesn"t restrict coming to sides.

We also know that units will be able to fight up one floor, just for completeness.

Nobz definitely wont want ammo runts now unless you arent a full nob squad anyway.
Which isnt exactly a big problem, regular nobz dont really have any stratagems worth using on them anyway. So just split the unit up rather than run a full one for 2 ammo runts.

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

Doubtful d3 weapons get it. Not even all d6 weapons get it.

It's gw pushing elites hard. For orks i expect battlewagons and walkers be a thing. For my necrons join the existing trend in 8th and go troopless. Sisters drop extra members and just run 5 strong troop squads. Need hell of a stratagem to field more than 5 model units

The rule as written doesn’t say each die is a minimum of 3 it says the total hits on all dice is a minimum of 3.. which means 3d3 is still Min 3....
However that SSAG looks mighty sexy now.. murdering monsters, vehicles and now murders hoards with its max 12 shots.
If smashas get buffed by the blast I fully expect another price hike.

gungo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

Doubtful d3 weapons get it. Not even all d6 weapons get it.

It's gw pushing elites hard. For orks i expect battlewagons and walkers be a thing. For my necrons join the existing trend in 8th and go troopless. Sisters drop extra members and just run 5 strong troop squads. Need hell of a stratagem to field more than 5 model units

The rule as written doesn’t say each die is a minimum of 3 it says the total hits on all dice is a minimum of 3.. which means 3d3 is still Min 3....
However that SSAG looks mighty sexy now

Well the SSAG isn't really firing at hordes, but 12 x2 shots per turn makes it actually good against them now lol.

For the stuff we wanna shoot, it seems about the same, as your minimum is now 3 shots instead of 2 against 6-10 squads.. not a big diff.

Regular SAGs though are far more consistent against stuff they might be shooting at.

tulun wrote:

gungo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

Doubtful d3 weapons get it. Not even all d6 weapons get it.

It's gw pushing elites hard. For orks i expect battlewagons and walkers be a thing. For my necrons join the existing trend in 8th and go troopless. Sisters drop extra members and just run 5 strong troop squads. Need hell of a stratagem to field more than 5 model units

The rule as written doesn’t say each die is a minimum of 3 it says the total hits on all dice is a minimum of 3.. which means 3d3 is still Min 3....
However that SSAG looks mighty sexy now

Well the SSAG isn't really firing at hordes, but 12 x2 shots per turn makes it actually good against them now lol.

For the stuff we wanna shoot, it seems about the same, as your minimum is now 3 shots instead of 2 against 6-10 squads.. not a big diff.

Regular SAGs though are far more consistent against stuff they might be shooting at.

I’m just saying SSAG not only murders monsters and vehicles.. it also does a number on hoards... so you never really don’t have a target...
regardless if I had to guess the Meta for 9th I am expecting MSU to make a return. I don’t expect a lot of 11+ units. So I don’t expect a lot of people focusing on anti horde weapons.
Also things to note
Da boomer got much better 2d6 x2 is just mean... even if the unit is only 6-10 models you are still getting min 6 hits or a crazy 24 hits vs 11+
Kinda the Morkanaut
And most Mek guns Become interesting

Comment from reddit:

"On stream they clarified D3 blast.

It counts as having rolled a 3 on the dice against 6-10 models. Which gets turned down to a 2.

So massed D3 shots like a TFC 4D3 gets min 8 shots against a 6-10 blob vs the min 6 shots from a 2D6 weapon."

Maybe we can confirm if this wording is correct, but yeah, sounds like they are accounting for multiple die rolls as getting MINIMUM 3, which makes more sense than this 3 attacks nonsense.

that completely conflicts with the article, hopefully the rule in the actual book is clarified better.

As i pointed out in their FB post, its not necessarily a "bad" thing that say a 4D6 gun has a minimum of 3 shots (which is impossible to get) and against 11+ models suddenly automatically does 24, its just really...really weird.
Such guns are rare, so it felt really odd that multi-dice random shot guns got fudged a bit.
Also before anyone says "such a gun wouldnt fire at hordes anyway" remember that Orks especially but some others as well DO have vehicle units that goto 6man squads, unless i missed it Blast doesnt care about what its targeting, just how many. That kind of gun would totally fire against a blob of Grot Tanks or Killakanz, especially in 9th where presumably theyre a fair bit more of a threat than currently.

Yeah, I'm sick of playing footsloggers anyway. I have the feeling that I'd lean to a single spearhead detachment in 9th. Heavy support are too limited in a battallion, there are too many tax units in a brigade, and not so many CPs to start with if a second detachment is added.

Lootas, among others, will hate the blast rule, so will large squads of meganobz with 6+ models. At least tankbustas can still be 2x5 in the same trukk and laugh at the blast rule, however the bomb squig will make them 6, and an ammo runt will probably add more penalties than benefits for a 5 man squad of flash gitz.

The blast rule could make KMKs more appealing unless they disgustingly go up in points. Too bad that the majority of heavy infantry units are perfectly functioning with 3-5 dudes.

What about flamers? Shouldn't they get a bonus for targeting large squads as well?

i would assume flamers get a big enough bonus for vehicles getting to fire them in combat.
Though i wouldnt be surprised if the "flamer weapons ignore cover by default" rule comes back. Always bugged me that they somehow dont block cover anymore when historically that was the POINT of flame weapons was to bunker-bomb people in a building easily.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i would assume flamers get a big enough bonus for vehicles getting to fire them in combat.
Though i wouldnt be surprised if the "flamer weapons ignore cover by default" rule comes back. Always bugged me that they somehow dont block cover anymore when historically that was the POINT of flame weapons was to bunker-bomb people in a building easily.

What about our poor but always beloved burnaboyz?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
that completely conflicts with the article, hopefully the rule in the actual book is clarified better.

As i pointed out in their FB post, its not necessarily a "bad" thing that say a 4D6 gun has a minimum of 3 shots (which is impossible to get) and against 11+ models suddenly automatically does 24, its just really...really weird.
Such guns are rare, so it felt really odd that multi-dice random shot guns got fudged a bit.
Also before anyone says "such a gun wouldnt fire at hordes anyway" remember that Orks especially but some others as well DO have vehicle units that goto 6man squads, unless i missed it Blast doesnt care about what its targeting, just how many. That kind of gun would totally fire against a blob of Grot Tanks or Killakanz, especially in 9th where presumably theyre a fair bit more of a threat than currently.

We’ll see. It just seems off that two lobbas will get a minimum of double the shots of a big lobba ( Which represents a bigger blast radius ). The supa lobba would only get 3 shots with a bad roll, which then goes up 6x if somehow an 11th loser stands in coherency.

That seems to go against the intent of what they’re trying to do.

I’m glad KK are interesting at 5 as a side note.

Also as a side note: it legend point cost are not adjusted, do people think people will stop allowing them casually?

at this point, ive stopped hoping for something for burna boyz. Until they give them proper stats/rules WITHOUT hyking their price or making them freakishly cheap, i'll never use them.
The fact that they werent a Troop plus a few points should have been enough of a difference between them and boyz, given theyre tissue paper anyway. Not 3x the boy cost for at best 2x the boy damage (not factoring travel time for that damage)

Random thought. Will the Scrapjet's rokkit kannon get blast you reckon? If so it has up and downsides. Slap out a good amount of shots against 6 man units, but also can't fire them in CQC which I suspect is where it will really shine otherwise.

Considering how it just is a rokkit, it shouldn't be a blast.

I guess we're still waiting for the FAQ to find out if the Gunwagon's shoot-twice officially works with Da Boomer?

Since stikkbombs are blast weapons, tankbusta bombs probably are as well, right? Spending a CP to throw 10 of them and reliably putting out 20-30 shots plus dakka-dakka sounds pretty good.

 Khorzain wrote:
I guess we're still waiting for the FAQ to find out if the Gunwagon's shoot-twice officially works with Da Boomer?

Since stikkbombs are blast weapons, tankbusta bombs probably are as well, right? Spending a CP to throw 10 of them and reliably putting out 20-30 shots plus dakka-dakka sounds pretty good.

They might be. But mind you old Grenades used to use the small blast marker while melta and tankbusta bombs were single shot.

On Burnaboyz?

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather see them gone and just woven into Slugga Boyz as a weapon option.

(Slugga Boyz could take a Burna or Big Choppa every ten models, Shoota Boyz could take a Big Shoota or ROkkit for every ten models.)

They just don't *work* as a unit in and of themselves.

Wakshaani wrote:
On Burnaboyz?

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather see them gone and just woven into Slugga Boyz as a weapon option.

(Slugga Boyz could take a Burna or Big Choppa every ten models, Shoota Boyz could take a Big Shoota or ROkkit for every ten models.)

They just don't *work* as a unit in and of themselves.

I'd be cool with that tbh, especially if they make a distinction between Shootas/Sluggas statswise to promote those weaponry in some way. Make it so a mob of 20+ shoota boyz gain +1 to hit when shooting ranged weapons.

Burna Boyz are a classic example of having a specialist boy unit that doesn't know what it wants to be. As a ranged anti-infantry unit, they're inferior to the majority of options in the Ork codex (and one in which Orks in general are not lacking) and in CC the lack the damage and the weight of attacks to beat regular boyz or Meganobz. They need an entire overhaul of their unit, including stratagem support, to make them a unit worth considering.

What is the point of this rule. Did anyone ask for this.

MSUhammer.

Please make transports and truckboys not garbage.

tneva82 wrote:
So far terrain rules they have previewed are a) what has been in use for years b) help msu more than horde. Need huge change.

Also doubtful outflank is holy grail. Orks already have tellyporta that doesn"t restrict coming to sides.

When is terrain not more helpful for MSU.

Smaller unit e.g. easier to fit behind terrain and easier to maneuver. Easier to fit inside ruins or on second floor balcony. More room to maneuver in said spaces due to less bodies.
They also typically benefit more from +1 armor save.

Eh that was pretty much my point...

Unless terrain once again confers its own save much like in the editions before 8th. In which case it usually works out better for low save units.

Unless they change how you gain benefit and not just what you get not much help. So far msu has been only benefitter to revealed terrain rules