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People squinting at the flipthrough of the book say

Saturnine termies M5 WS4 BS4 S5 T6 W3 I3(?)
Saturnine Preator M5 WS6 BS5 S6 T6 W6 I6(?)
Centurion M7 WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5
Vets M7 WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I4
Tacticals M7 WS4 BS4 S4 W2 I4

Welcome to the Wounds vs Damage arms race that worked so well in 40k

 lord_blackfang wrote:
People squinting at the flipthrough of the book say

Saturnine termies M5 WS4 BS4 S5 T6 W3 I3(?)
Saturnine Preator M5 WS6 BS5 S6 T6 W6 I6(?)
Centurion M7 WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5
Vets M7 WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I4
Tacticals M7 WS4 BS4 S4 W2 I4

Welcome to the Wounds vs Damage arms race that worked so well in 40k

The example profile on warcom is a 1 wound tactical marine however.



Unless I've beer and brainfarts and they're not the same thing.

Looks like a new plastic dreadnought drop pod modeled to be blown open. I haven't looked at mine in a bit, but the top center engine looks different.

 1984Phantom wrote:
I'm sorry, but I've to remark the true original mk2 crusade armour has the helmet bolted down with the torso.

One of them.

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
People squinting at the flipthrough of the book say

Saturnine termies M5 WS4 BS4 S5 T6 W3 I3(?)
Saturnine Preator M5 WS6 BS5 S6 T6 W6 I6(?)
Centurion M7 WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5
Vets M7 WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I4
Tacticals M7 WS4 BS4 S4 W2 I4

Welcome to the Wounds vs Damage arms race that worked so well in 40k

The example profile on warcom is a 1 wound tactical marine however.

You're right, I went back to the Discord and the book squinter corrected themselves.

At least one crisis averted! Well, two, they say Legends are staying!

Absolutely love all the new models, interested to see how the rules shake out. Very hyped for the box and following releases. The leaked photos were very unflattering for the saturnine, they look great.

My main takeaway from the trailer is how crude thoughtmark seems to be, and how clunky vratine armour is...

Dudeface wrote:
I'm not sure a game of this size requires skirmish level stats and the like. All wind is out of my sails despite the amazing minis, I dont fancy game getting bogged down in 4 hours turn 2/3 showdowns (ymmv).

Why would those bog down the game? I wouldn't call them specifically "skirmish level stats" either. What is the difference between a one model unit and a 10-model unit besides number of dice rolled for weapons and armor? Not that much. And we already do that part.

Granularity is a good thing for a larger scale game like HH. I look forward to the impact the Legions/factions have on those new stats and how that develops in the course of each battle. Hopefully the design studio uses this fresh space to add interest and not just many flavors of old leadership.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/b3ladnma/saturnine-the-top-five-rules-changes-for-the-new-edition/

Sounds like 6th edition soup list building tbh

With maybe 7th "Detachment" bonuses

This is *not* good news...

But hey, the Saturnine stuff is all chef's kiss!

 lord_blackfang wrote:


Laser destroyer sponson!

Told ya!

Now, might we hope for a Spartan upgrade sprue for the same?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Now, might we hope for a Spartan upgrade sprue for the same?

Would be lovely if they added the option for Spartan chassis to take the quad heavy bolters too. They gave pretty much every vehicle that can the Predator sponsons all the options, let's do it for the "superheavy" sponson too.

I like the Fellblade. But the thing that I'll most likely to get at some point is the tarantulas. Generic Weapon platforms are useful for any game system and faction and if GW prices them properly I can see me getting a couple.

Everything else is nice but I've no use for it. Saturnine armour and MKII don’t interest me as much as existing sets.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm not sure a game of this size requires skirmish level stats and the like. All wind is out of my sails despite the amazing minis, I dont fancy game getting bogged down in 4 hours turn 2/3 showdowns (ymmv).

Why would those bog down the game? I wouldn't call them specifically "skirmish level stats" either. What is the difference between a one model unit and a 10-model unit besides number of dice rolled for weapons and armor? Not that much. And we already do that part.

Granularity is a good thing for a larger scale game like HH. I look forward to the impact the Legions/factions have on those new stats and how that develops in the course of each battle. Hopefully the design studio uses this fresh space to add interest and not just many flavors of old leadership.

Why does a game with hundreds of minis a side need 4 variations of leadership? The point of large scale mass battle games, which HH is due to game size, is to streamline combat experiences to some degree for accessibility.

Having layered checks and tests against varying mental stats at various stages of the turn can only add downtime to the process.

The weapons, less bothered about, it could potentially reduce overhead. But the sounds of the extra challenge mechanics and tests scattered about the game with inevitable modifiers and suchforth seems a bit much.

I won't lie, I'm a few beers in and literate eloquence is beyond me, others may explain why 4 stats is more work than 1 for "extra" tests.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Now, might we hope for a Spartan upgrade sprue for the same?

Would be lovely if they added the option for Spartan chassis to take the quad heavy bolters too. They gave pretty much every vehicle that can the Predator sponsons all the options, let's do it for the "superheavy" sponson too.

That would also quite nicely flesh out an upgrade box too now you mention it.

Hmmmm

*resumes cardamonly beard stroking of wisdom*

Well, there's a reason it disappeared from 1st to 2nd Edition 40K, and never reappeared - until now.

Reserving judgement for now, but struggling to see the point right now.

Dudeface wrote:
I won't lie, I'm a few beers in and literate eloquence is beyond me, others may explain why 4 stats is more work than 1 for "extra" tests.

Gotta remember or check which weapon tests on which stat and causes which of the 4 versions of pinning. Gotta remember or check 4 stats per model instead of 1 and they already hinted there will be minute nuances when now it was pretty much Mooks 7, Veterans 8, Elites 9 and Heroes 10.

Upside I guess is outside of a fair chunk of the Saturnine box? There’s plenty coming for those who opt to stick with either of the earlier editions.

Also I welcome 4 different versions of Stubborn and 4 different versions of Fearless, for each of the mental stats, with names that will give no hint what fits with what.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron Will: Ignores negative Leadership modifiers
Unflappable: Ignores negative Cool modifiers
Stubborn: Ignores negative Willpower modifiers
Consummate Professional: Ignores negative Intelligence modifiers

All in the execution though.

Your trepidation is not without foundation though.

Honestly, maybe a better implementation of mental stats would have been to do it army wide with bonuses from leaders and characters?? Marines are 7s across the board, a sergeant gives +1 LD and CL, a techmarine +1 IN, etc? A lot less to remember that way.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Also I welcome 4 different versions of Stubborn and 4 different versions of Fearless, for each of the mental stats, with names that will give no hint what fits with what.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron Will: Ignores negative Leadership modifiers
Unflappable: Ignores negative Cool modifiers
Stubborn: Ignores negative Willpower modifiers
Consummate Professional: Ignores negative Intelligence modifiers

I know they won't, but the buff for intelligence surely should be wrinkly brain and the debuff smooth braining.

I thank you for your word smithing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Honestly, maybe a better implementation of mental stats would have been to do it army wide with bonuses from leaders and characters?? Marines are 7s across the board, a sergeant gives +1 LD and CL, a techmarine +1 IN, etc? A lot less to remember that way.

But just... why bother?

On the RT style Mental Characteristics?

Those where what, once upon a time, made Squats a solid force, being well above average across the board.

So there’s definitely the potential for it to add depth and nuance, even between Legions.

Execution remains the bugger.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Execution remains the bugger.

Which is why I'm reserving judgement.

I don't have high hopes, but I won't call it bad unless it comes out and is bad.

I’m my usual optimistic self.

All the plastic redo's of FW resin kits look good. Breachers, Mk2 assault marines, raipers and fellblade all onto my to buy list.

All the new stuff looks bad. The saturine stuff is all dollar store starcraft knockoff bad.

The rules changes all look terrible. HH is meant to be a mass battle game, adding complexity and gimmick rules will just slow down the game and cause more rules issues. Not to mention I have zero interest in the constant rules churn. I won't be buying any rules books from GW.

Excited for the new models, but the rules in 2nd ed were borderline too complex as it was. And this doesn't look any better. Hopefully the mechanicum rules aren't as messy this time around.

Dudeface wrote:


Why does a game with hundreds of minis a side need 4 variations of leadership? The point of large scale mass battle games, which HH is due to game size, is to streamline combat experiences to some degree for accessibility.

Having layered checks and tests against varying mental stats at various stages of the turn can only add downtime to the process.

The weapons, less bothered about, it could potentially reduce overhead. But the sounds of the extra challenge mechanics and tests scattered about the game with inevitable modifiers and suchforth seems a bit much.

I won't lie, I'm a few beers in and literate eloquence is beyond me, others may explain why 4 stats is more work than 1 for "extra" tests.

It isn't usually "hundreds of minis a side". At most I usually have about 40, maybe 60 tops. This isn't a "large scale mass battle game" - that is Legion Imperialis.

Also, these four stat checks may not be so relevant as to slow the game any more than leadership did in previous editions. It just change who is impacted, how and under what conditions.

Ultimately, I am excited but going to obviously, like everyone else, reserve final judgement for when the rules are in my hands and maybe even a few battles in, realistically.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Why does a game with hundreds of minis a side need 4 variations of leadership? The point of large scale mass battle games, which HH is due to game size, is to streamline combat experiences to some degree for accessibility.

Having layered checks and tests against varying mental stats at various stages of the turn can only add downtime to the process.

The weapons, less bothered about, it could potentially reduce overhead. But the sounds of the extra challenge mechanics and tests scattered about the game with inevitable modifiers and suchforth seems a bit much.

I won't lie, I'm a few beers in and literate eloquence is beyond me, others may explain why 4 stats is more work than 1 for "extra" tests.

It isn't usually "hundreds of minis a side". At most I usually have about 40, maybe 60 tops. This isn't a "large scale mass battle game" - that is Legion Imperialis.

Also, these four stat checks may not be so relevant as to slow the game any more than leadership did in previous editions. It just change who is impacted, how and under what conditions.

Ultimately, I am excited but going to obviously, like everyone else, reserve final judgement for when the rules are in my hands and maybe even a few battles in, realistically.

What does your army list look like to have 40 guys at 3k points? It promotes big blob units, that's the point of the setting and game.

But if we assume you're right for a minute, why bother with 4 stats, sets of tests and sets of modifiers if they "may not be so relevant"?

It's almost like they listened to the worst areas of the HH online communities and went "hey these guys love pointless stats and 'crunch', let's inject ore for the sakes of it".

I will go now, approach this with a clearer head tomorrow.

Yay, teased custodes, I remember they had forgeworld spears for custodes, so either they are making new spears, which will be nice to have some variety in my army, or they’re going to make some forgeworld models like the spears and hopefully the vehicles plastic which would be amazing.

And finally, staying in the Solar System, here is the glinting blade of an auramite spear…

The thing with those stats is what it tells us about the design brief.

GW didn't go "oh you know what the game needs to be better, a separate stat specifically for fixing vehicle damage"

They went "what can we cram in to justify invalidating hundreds of pounds worth of practically new books"

Maaaybe they implement them well but this motivation inevitably leads to bad choices because it's not about improving the game, it's about just adding stuff for the sake of adding it and some of the stuff is bound to be bad.

And of course we're spinning the wheel of random power levels for each faction again, because there is no playtest data for this version of the rules, and our prospects in case of sucky rules are to get a new random spin again in 2028 for another 100€, rather than any fine tuning based on gameplay experience.