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2015/10/25 05:31:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
luke1705, thanks for the list.
This is the kind of direction I am looking for as I tend to always run with predictable gaunts.and lean HQs.
This looks really efficient and I will give it a try.
2500
2000
2250
1750
2015/10/25 11:47:12
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
So a lot of new Tau is known to us at this point, maybe its time to start discussing tactica.
I'm reading that most of our problems with Tau have gotten worse, and that markerlights have added on SD potential to their list of reasons to die first.
The superheavy we simply cant kill, and in an 1850 list containing one I forsee a really, really rough matchup.
The Ghost keels disrupting the fire of our main unit in Codex: Flyrant sounds like a pain, since volume of fire is really what they have going for them.
Assaulting is still the quick and easy way to pop their suits, but being on the ground without taking advantage of our cover saves means our measly 3+ armor isnt going to let us stay alive for long.
So theres a few of the immediate problems I'm seeing. I see some old standby's, like massive Gargoyle broods working (from a Skyblight, even better) What are some other potential Tau solutions?
luke1705 wrote: I would definitely run dual flyrants. At 1000, that's most of the synapse that you need. That plus the Malanthrope would be all that you need.
Personally, I prefer the rippers as little deep-striking objective cappers. With obsec, they're insanely annoying if your opponent doesn't bubble-wrap his objectives correctly. Even if he does, it's still a good time because you can use your flyrants to shoot a hole in the bubble and then run in and get the objective anyhow.
The reason why I like this list is because your opponent has nothing good to shoot at. Worried about giving up first blood? Reserve the lictor. With the Malanthrope holding the Carnifex's hand as it moves up, it's getting a 3+ cover save if you have ANY sort of cover, and if you're obscured by a wall, or standing in ruins/rubble, you get 2+ cover even if you're not obscured. The flyrants can start in ruins/rubble near the malanthrope, and should ALWAYS have 2+ cover to start the game, so even if your opponent has a lot of long-ranged firepower you often will force him to go first because you can handle it just fine
I like the list, and that would be the list that I would normally make.
However, I've got an alternate list for your consideration:
Dakka Flyrant w/Egrubs
Dakka Flyrant w/Egrubs
3x Rippers w/DS Mucolid
Dakkafex
Dakkafex
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
It's a more shooty list with a slightly more flexible deployment due to fexes in pods. Against a fast army like Eldar Corsairs, I think this type of list might do slightly better. The only downside is that it is more reliant on Reserve Rolls and its ability to take a strong alpha-strike is weaker due to the absence of the malanthrope. But this type of list packs 6 MC's and more mobile hitting power.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iechine wrote: So a lot of new Tau is known to us at this point, maybe its time to start discussing tactica.
I'm reading that most of our problems with Tau have gotten worse, and that markerlights have added on SD potential to their list of reasons to die first.
The superheavy we simply cant kill, and in an 1850 list containing one I forsee a really, really rough matchup.
The Ghost keels disrupting the fire of our main unit in Codex: Flyrant sounds like a pain, since volume of fire is really what they have going for them.
Assaulting is still the quick and easy way to pop their suits, but being on the ground without taking advantage of our cover saves means our measly 3+ armor isnt going to let us stay alive for long.
So theres a few of the immediate problems I'm seeing. I see some old standby's, like massive Gargoyle broods working (from a Skyblight, even better) What are some other potential Tau solutions?
I might do a tactica when the new Tau Campaign book comes out like I did with Eldar. Basically, our strategy isn't going to change much against the new Tau. Some key points from my early, early observations.
1. Don't bother with assault units against Tau. Their shooting has gotten much, much better and they don't even need to rely on Markerlights! Basically, some of their formations comes with increased BS and Ignores Cover for free! Moreover, the Signature Systems for a Commander (like Monster Hunter and/or Ignores Cover) can apply not to just 1 unit, but an entire formation!
2. Flyrants are still are go-to unit against the new Tau. The new Tau have become better shooters, but all their increased BS is still wasted when snap-firing. I also don't see them taking any more Skyfire than they did previously. Flyrants are still effective against them.
3. Deathstars/big hordes will die to them very quickly. Don't bother running either against them (at least not Tyranid deathstars, which suck pretty badly).
4. Psychic powers will still screw them over. Powers like the Horror and Paroxysm will be your go-to powers. Scream not as much anymore due to their ability to spread out better than before (now Supporting Fire will be 12" in their "Decurion" detachment as opposed to 6" currently).
5. If they focus down on a unit, they'll kill it pretty quickly. So don't run large blocks of units (i.e. large hordes). MSU is the way to go against them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/25 14:48:17
I might do a tactica when the new Tau Campaign book comes out like I did with Eldar. Basically, our strategy isn't going to change much against the new Tau. Some key points from my early, early observations.
1. Don't bother with assault units against Tau. Their shooting has gotten much, much better and they don't even need to rely on Markerlights! Basically, some of their formations comes with increased BS and Ignores Cover for free! Moreover, the Signature Systems for a Commander (like Monster Hunter and/or Ignores Cover) can apply not to just 1 unit, but an entire formation!
2. Flyrants are still are go-to unit against the new Tau. The new Tau have become better shooters, but all their increased BS is still wasted when snap-firing. I also don't see them taking any more Skyfire than they did previously. Flyrants are still effective against them.
3. Deathstars/big hordes will die to them very quickly. Don't bother running either against them (at least not Tyranid deathstars, which suck pretty badly).
4. Psychic powers will still screw them over. Powers like the Horror and Paroxysm will be your go-to powers. Scream not as much anymore due to their ability to spread out better than before (now Supporting Fire will be 12" in their "Decurion" detachment as opposed to 6" currently).
5. If they focus down on a unit, they'll kill it pretty quickly. So don't run large blocks of units (i.e. large hordes). MSU is the way to go against them.
Psychic and MSU definitely rule the day. Got to try and make them waste as much firepower as possible. They have a RIDICULOUS amount of ignores cover, however, which is a real issue since that was really all we had going for us. They have been (and will continue to be) a thorn in our sides. Honestly, I would take 3 Mawlocs against them in a heartbeat. Disallows the ghostkeels countermeasures and cover save since they're not being targeted (and it ignores cover).
Marker lights can improve the BS of snap shots, though, so our Flyrants are definitely in trouble. Take them, of course, and kill the marker lights first (what else is new?) and you can stand a decent chance. Otherwise, it's going to be rough sledding
2015/10/25 15:51:14
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
I might do a tactica when the new Tau Campaign book comes out like I did with Eldar. Basically, our strategy isn't going to change much against the new Tau. Some key points from my early, early observations.
1. Don't bother with assault units against Tau. Their shooting has gotten much, much better and they don't even need to rely on Markerlights! Basically, some of their formations comes with increased BS and Ignores Cover for free! Moreover, the Signature Systems for a Commander (like Monster Hunter and/or Ignores Cover) can apply not to just 1 unit, but an entire formation!
2. Flyrants are still are go-to unit against the new Tau. The new Tau have become better shooters, but all their increased BS is still wasted when snap-firing. I also don't see them taking any more Skyfire than they did previously. Flyrants are still effective against them.
3. Deathstars/big hordes will die to them very quickly. Don't bother running either against them (at least not Tyranid deathstars, which suck pretty badly).
4. Psychic powers will still screw them over. Powers like the Horror and Paroxysm will be your go-to powers. Scream not as much anymore due to their ability to spread out better than before (now Supporting Fire will be 12" in their "Decurion" detachment as opposed to 6" currently).
5. If they focus down on a unit, they'll kill it pretty quickly. So don't run large blocks of units (i.e. large hordes). MSU is the way to go against them.
Psychic and MSU definitely rule the day. Got to try and make them waste as much firepower as possible. They have a RIDICULOUS amount of ignores cover, however, which is a real issue since that was really all we had going for us. They have been (and will continue to be) a thorn in our sides. Honestly, I would take 3 Mawlocs against them in a heartbeat. Disallows the ghostkeels countermeasures and cover save since they're not being targeted (and it ignores cover).
Marker lights can improve the BS of snap shots, though, so our Flyrants are definitely in trouble. Take them, of course, and kill the marker lights first (what else is new?) and you can stand a decent chance. Otherwise, it's going to be rough sledding
We do have one thing going for us. Because of the abundance of Ignores Cover and +BS in the various formations, I actually see Tau players running LESS markerlights. That is good news for our flyers (but not so for any of our other units).
A word of caution, however. It is fun. It also also a very optimized and competitive Tyranid list. If your group (or rather, your friend) is casual competitive, you might want to go with just 1 dakkafex in a pod and something else. Otherwise, he might be overwhelmed.
Iechine wrote: So a lot of new Tau is known to us at this point, maybe its time to start discussing tactica.
I'm reading that most of our problems with Tau have gotten worse, and that markerlights have added on SD potential to their list of reasons to die first.
The superheavy we simply cant kill, and in an 1850 list containing one I forsee a really, really rough matchup.
The Ghost keels disrupting the fire of our main unit in Codex: Flyrant sounds like a pain, since volume of fire is really what they have going for them.
Assaulting is still the quick and easy way to pop their suits, but being on the ground without taking advantage of our cover saves means our measly 3+ armor isnt going to let us stay alive for long.
So theres a few of the immediate problems I'm seeing. I see some old standby's, like massive Gargoyle broods working (from a Skyblight, even better) What are some other potential Tau solutions?
Also one thing to keep in mind with the Tau formations is that they are expensive. The Basic Hunter Cadre formation clocks in I believe at around 600 points bare minimum and that's with minimum firewarrior squads and single-suit Crisis teams, which even with all the special rules isn't going to kill much. If you want to get anything out of it you're looking at close to 1000 points just for the basic formation. Anything less than that and you really aren't taking advantage of the bonuses very well. The other ones aren't exactly cheap either. I think at 1500-1850 you're looking at 2-3 formations. If they fill out the basic a bit to take advantage then possibly only 2. The Optimised Stealth Cadre is probably the cheapest of them, but is at least 310 points. At 1500 all you'll probably see if a fuller Basic formation and Optimised Stealth Cadre.
It's not amazing but it does help. Also make sure the table has plenty of terrain. Not for cover, but to break line of sight so the formation can't all fire at one unit. If that unit of firewarriors can't see you then they can't combine their firepower with the Commander.
2015/11/01 05:26:24
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Iechine wrote: So a lot of new Tau is known to us at this point, maybe its time to start discussing tactica.
I'm reading that most of our problems with Tau have gotten worse, and that markerlights have added on SD potential to their list of reasons to die first.
The superheavy we simply cant kill, and in an 1850 list containing one I forsee a really, really rough matchup.
The Ghost keels disrupting the fire of our main unit in Codex: Flyrant sounds like a pain, since volume of fire is really what they have going for them.
Assaulting is still the quick and easy way to pop their suits, but being on the ground without taking advantage of our cover saves means our measly 3+ armor isnt going to let us stay alive for long.
So theres a few of the immediate problems I'm seeing. I see some old standby's, like massive Gargoyle broods working (from a Skyblight, even better) What are some other potential Tau solutions?
Also one thing to keep in mind with the Tau formations is that they are expensive. The Basic Hunter Cadre formation clocks in I believe at around 600 points bare minimum and that's with minimum firewarrior squads and single-suit Crisis teams, which even with all the special rules isn't going to kill much. If you want to get anything out of it you're looking at close to 1000 points just for the basic formation. Anything less than that and you really aren't taking advantage of the bonuses very well. The other ones aren't exactly cheap either. I think at 1500-1850 you're looking at 2-3 formations. If they fill out the basic a bit to take advantage then possibly only 2. The Optimised Stealth Cadre is probably the cheapest of them, but is at least 310 points. At 1500 all you'll probably see if a fuller Basic formation and Optimised Stealth Cadre.
It's not amazing but it does help. Also make sure the table has plenty of terrain. Not for cover, but to break line of sight so the formation can't all fire at one unit. If that unit of firewarriors can't see you then they can't combine their firepower with the Commander.
Seeing as mot the players on here seem to run at 1850, the Hunter cadre is going to be pretty solid.though I think comp. play will be seeing more of the Retailiation + Optimzed Stealth shenanigans.
2015/11/01 14:48:59
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Not so sure about that. I think hunter cadre is still stronger because of the +1 BS buff that it unlocks, not just for itself but for all of the other formations. To take the hunter contingent you need a hunter cadre, but by taking the hunter cadre you get all of the other formations to benefit from the + 1 BS buff so long as at least 3 units are shooting at that same target. That's pretty big, and you can take everything from the retaliation cadre anyhow. All you lose is relentless broadsides. That's not nothing, but if buffmander is within 12" of the broadsides, they can run and then shoot anyhow so that does help their mobility.
2015/11/01 17:05:38
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Hey everybody, I'm planning out my next TSHFT army, and I want to give a good old swarm a try, like real swarm. I expect it will be quite the challenge to manage games in two and half hours, but I want to give it a go. List will be below, along with some of the basic plans I had for use. I would love to hear any suggestions that you guys might have for tweaks to make it better, or faster to deploy and use. (One of the reason for no psykers is to save time.)
To make the set up a touch faster, 20 gaunts (or the 17 gaunts + prime) Will go in the bunker. Dima on top, malanthrope behind. Bunker gets placed so one entrance should be just inside 6" from the board edge. (returning units can hop in and escape hatch out farther their second turn.) Crone, second malanthrope go wherever best cover is. Carnifex as able, with one malanthrope or the other. Swarm fills all the cracks, giving better cover to those behind, and getting cover from malanthropes. Warrior squad and trygon are in reserve. No surprise, everything moves forward quickly as possible. Infiltrating bombs put pressure and more targets on enemy front lines. Escape hatch lets me move many things forward quickly. Malanthrope #1 goes in the box turn one after the gaunts leave to boost his bubble, and then move him far up the field turn two. Trygon prime creates a crater for re-born units to use as a table edge later in the game. Anti-tank was an issue in the first versions of this list that I came up with. Sacrificing some of the raw numbers I added the dima for counter GC/super heavy tanks, the crone for a nod towards AA, and the stone crusher as a sneaky super weapon. Let me know what you all think. Any adjustments or tactics that might emphasize speed of play for a mass list.
seapheonix wrote: Hey everybody, I'm planning out my next TSHFT army, and I want to give a good old swarm a try, like real swarm. I expect it will be quite the challenge to manage games in two and half hours, but I want to give it a go. List will be below, along with some of the basic plans I had for use. I would love to hear any suggestions that you guys might have for tweaks to make it better, or faster to deploy and use. (One of the reason for no psykers is to save time.)
To make the set up a touch faster, 20 gaunts (or the 17 gaunts + prime) Will go in the bunker. Dima on top, malanthrope behind. Bunker gets placed so one entrance should be just inside 6" from the board edge. (returning units can hop in and escape hatch out farther their second turn.) Crone, second malanthrope go wherever best cover is. Carnifex as able, with one malanthrope or the other. Swarm fills all the cracks, giving better cover to those behind, and getting cover from malanthropes. Warrior squad and trygon are in reserve. No surprise, everything moves forward quickly as possible. Infiltrating bombs put pressure and more targets on enemy front lines. Escape hatch lets me move many things forward quickly. Malanthrope #1 goes in the box turn one after the gaunts leave to boost his bubble, and then move him far up the field turn two. Trygon prime creates a crater for re-born units to use as a table edge later in the game. Anti-tank was an issue in the first versions of this list that I came up with. Sacrificing some of the raw numbers I added the dima for counter GC/super heavy tanks, the crone for a nod towards AA, and the stone crusher as a sneaky super weapon. Let me know what you all think. Any adjustments or tactics that might emphasize speed of play for a mass list.
I see problems with the Dima on top of the bunker. I guess you are wanting to escape hatch it? I don't think Dima can even the building to use the escape hatch as it is an MC. Other than that looks like a good start. Oh and you need one more brood og Termaguants. Everything but an old epub version of the formation list it as 3 termie, 3 hormie and 1 Warrior.
2015/11/02 04:12:41
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Ah, well thanks about the termagants. Mine was from the first x-mas release I believe. As to the dima, it is a "leaping" mc, so much like jump infantry can hop off the building.
As to a third termagant squad. Hmm. Do I drop all ten devourers from the small squad, or do I drop half the devourers, and steal the five dummy gants?
Actually, I think I will make all three squads 10 gants with 5X devourers. That spreads it out and makes each unit dangerous and disposable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/03 00:25:55
~seapheonix
2015/11/03 00:42:38
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
seapheonix wrote: Hey everybody, I'm planning out my next TSHFT army, and I want to give a good old swarm a try, like real swarm. I expect it will be quite the challenge to manage games in two and half hours, but I want to give it a go. List will be below, along with some of the basic plans I had for use. I would love to hear any suggestions that you guys might have for tweaks to make it better, or faster to deploy and use. (One of the reason for no psykers is to save time.)
To make the set up a touch faster, 20 gaunts (or the 17 gaunts + prime) Will go in the bunker. Dima on top, malanthrope behind. Bunker gets placed so one entrance should be just inside 6" from the board edge. (returning units can hop in and escape hatch out farther their second turn.) Crone, second malanthrope go wherever best cover is. Carnifex as able, with one malanthrope or the other. Swarm fills all the cracks, giving better cover to those behind, and getting cover from malanthropes. Warrior squad and trygon are in reserve. No surprise, everything moves forward quickly as possible. Infiltrating bombs put pressure and more targets on enemy front lines. Escape hatch lets me move many things forward quickly. Malanthrope #1 goes in the box turn one after the gaunts leave to boost his bubble, and then move him far up the field turn two. Trygon prime creates a crater for re-born units to use as a table edge later in the game. Anti-tank was an issue in the first versions of this list that I came up with. Sacrificing some of the raw numbers I added the dima for counter GC/super heavy tanks, the crone for a nod towards AA, and the stone crusher as a sneaky super weapon. Let me know what you all think. Any adjustments or tactics that might emphasize speed of play for a mass list.
I think the list looks interesting up until you reach the point of MCs, I've thought of running something similar myself. You do definitely want a Trygon, but a Dima possibly and a Fex definitely are just going to be way too slow, the horde will race ahead of them and get shot first before they can catch up. Similarly, the Crone seems out of place - it's your only flier, and generally massing them is a far more effective option - either it gets ignored or it gets focused and dies very quickly.
If you want anti-tank I'd consider giving the Warriors RCs to clear off backfield pods (one can have a Barbed Strangler so they can shoot) - and take a Zoanthrope or two, the guaranteed warp lance is good and cheap synapse is invaluable in a list like this. Honestly, Flyrants would fill the anti-tank gap very well as well, you can't go wrong with them.
I'd try out just running minimum units of Termas initially, the Devourers are good but generally you'll want them deployed after the Hormas, and it makes getting in range a bit of a pain. Also consider Toxin Sacs on the Hormas, as they really are pretty awful in CC even in large numbers, though it is expensive. You will definitely want AG on the Prime if he's maybe going with the Hormas, otherwise you'll lose fleet. And also consider the Maw-Claws to give your blobs Pref Enemy after a kill, much like the Malanthropes.
2015/11/03 04:35:20
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
I think the list looks interesting up until you reach the point of MCs, I've thought of running something similar myself. You do definitely want a Trygon, but a Dima possibly and a Fex definitely are just going to be way too slow, the horde will race ahead of them and get shot first before they can catch up. Similarly, the Crone seems out of place - it's your only flier, and generally massing them is a far more effective option - either it gets ignored or it gets focused and dies very quickly.
If you want anti-tank I'd consider giving the Warriors RCs to clear off backfield pods (one can have a Barbed Strangler so they can shoot) - and take a Zoanthrope or two, the guaranteed warp lance is good and cheap synapse is invaluable in a list like this. Honestly, Flyrants would fill the anti-tank gap very well as well, you can't go wrong with them.
So the monstrous creatures sure enough are for the concern of anti-tank. What do I do if I'm facing knights, or anybody with a couple of tanks even. My gaunts, and gants, (the greater portion of my army) can't even glance a rhino, let alone a drop pod. Rending claws on the warriors, they move at the same pace as the monstrous creatures, but they need 6's to do more then glance said av 10. With drop pods, still need a 5/6 to pen. Against knights, really no chance. Zoanthropes being in the elite space remove my malanthropes, taking away my cover saves from the army, and once again, moving at the same speed as the MCs. Now we have slowed down my mass list by adding the psychic phase. Similar with the hive tyrant. I'm not totally opposed to adding psychic powers, and the hive tyrant is about the best option it seems, however I've had very poor luck with flyrants in really making their points back unless there are so many other things already in my opponents face they can't deal with him. Even so, the hive tyrant still doesn't handle those now seemingly common super heavies. Zoats, flyrants, and such belong in the list I run full of drop pods. (in my opinion.)
I will keep your advice in mind however as I start to get practice games in, and will try tweaking it that way if my MCs just get eaten too quickly, without any returns. The particular choice of the crone, dima, and stone wrecker fex are that they are specifically there for heavy armor, and for super heavies.
Crone with it's long range haywire can at least be a distraction for enemy fliers to shoot down first, it's heavy flamer also should do well cooking tau and the like. I don't expect to get a ton out of it, just enough distraction and a hull point or two. Gone are the days when one shot killed vehicles. (Unless you have D, or fire dragons)
Dimachaeron is there to go toe to toe with GCs, and to help the fex if there are any knights around. It's going to be a fantastic looking model, so I won't be shocked if it becomes a center piece for enemy fire. (Thus why it starts on top of the bunker and gets a 2+ cover.)
Stone wrecker is largely there to surprise people. One of the few things nids can take that can wreck a vehicle in one attack. (D3 ap2 hammer of wrath at str 10) Anyone who tarpits with zombies (lots of heretic armies around here.) Will be sad to find it gets as many attacks as the guys in base to base with it, and against the carapace armor, they can not cause a wound.
I expect that two out of those three will get taken out at some point in the game, but that should leave one of the three threats alive, and if the MCs are being focused on, my synapse, and my hordes are not.
I'd try out just running minimum units of Termas initially, the Devourers are good but generally you'll want them deployed after the Hormas, and it makes getting in range a bit of a pain. Also consider Toxin Sacs on the Hormas, as they really are pretty awful in CC even in large numbers, though it is expensive. You will definitely want AG on the Prime if he's maybe going with the Hormas, otherwise you'll lose fleet. And also consider the Maw-Claws to give your blobs Pref Enemy after a kill, much like the Malanthropes.
I'm not sold on the toxin sacs. They used to be great, but since you no longer get the re-roll for anything that is the same toughness, I need the adrenal glands to get a re-roll just on GEQ. If I'm fighting GEQ without adrenal glands, then the poison is useless. If I'm fighting MEQ with adrenal glands and poison, the poison is useless. I can see the adrenal because it lets me glance vehicles and makes a direct impact, and if I find after a couple of test games that the deveourers are not pulling there weight, that might be a direction to send those points in. Toxin sacs in seventh though are close to useless in my book for the points that they cost.
Now the devourers, that's to give my gaunts just a little bit of a bite, preferably at extreme range turn two, or if I'm lucky before that. If they are shooting buckets of dice at people, they tend to re-direct fire towards them. Then when they come back and port through the trygon tunnel, they have an arrival turn impact, and again, they draw fire, likely right at the time that my offense is smashing into the enemy.
~seapheonix
2015/11/03 14:56:19
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
So the monstrous creatures sure enough are for the concern of anti-tank. What do I do if I'm facing knights, or anybody with a couple of tanks even. My gaunts, and gants, (the greater portion of my army) can't even glance a rhino, let alone a drop pod. Rending claws on the warriors, they move at the same pace as the monstrous creatures, but they need 6's to do more then glance said av 10. With drop pods, still need a 5/6 to pen. Against knights, really no chance. Zoanthropes being in the elite space remove my malanthropes, taking away my cover saves from the army, and once again, moving at the same speed as the MCs. Now we have slowed down my mass list by adding the psychic phase. Similar with the hive tyrant. I'm not totally opposed to adding psychic powers, and the hive tyrant is about the best option it seems, however I've had very poor luck with flyrants in really making their points back unless there are so many other things already in my opponents face they can't deal with him. Even so, the hive tyrant still doesn't handle those now seemingly common super heavies. Zoats, flyrants, and such belong in the list I run full of drop pods. (in my opinion.)
I will keep your advice in mind however as I start to get practice games in, and will try tweaking it that way if my MCs just get eaten too quickly, without any returns. The particular choice of the crone, dima, and stone wrecker fex are that they are specifically there for heavy armor, and for super heavies.
Crone with it's long range haywire can at least be a distraction for enemy fliers to shoot down first, it's heavy flamer also should do well cooking tau and the like. I don't expect to get a ton out of it, just enough distraction and a hull point or two. Gone are the days when one shot killed vehicles. (Unless you have D, or fire dragons)
Dimachaeron is there to go toe to toe with GCs, and to help the fex if there are any knights around. It's going to be a fantastic looking model, so I won't be shocked if it becomes a center piece for enemy fire. (Thus why it starts on top of the bunker and gets a 2+ cover.)
Stone wrecker is largely there to surprise people. One of the few things nids can take that can wreck a vehicle in one attack. (D3 ap2 hammer of wrath at str 10) Anyone who tarpits with zombies (lots of heretic armies around here.) Will be sad to find it gets as many attacks as the guys in base to base with it, and against the carapace armor, they can not cause a wound.
I expect that two out of those three will get taken out at some point in the game, but that should leave one of the three threats alive, and if the MCs are being focused on, my synapse, and my hordes are not.
Against Knights you either tarpit them with respawning Gaunts, or fly flyrants up either side/behind. He can only cover one facing with the shield and you get to shoot devourers into both. That's beside the point though, as your current units are not all that great VS a knight. A crone gets to vector strike it once and slowly fire the missles which have under a 50% of glancing per. A stonecrusher will never be able to get near any mobile vehicle unless your opponent is reckless. A Dima probably has the best shot of closing the distance and doing damage, but even that risks D and is better used murdering characters and suchlike. The sad fact is we simply don't have all that much to reliably deal with superheavies - flyrants are probably our best bet VS Knights though. Gargantuans the Dima is better VS I do admit, but again D and stomps are a concern.
Warriors are not meant to be able to kill pods efficiently, just make it so you don't have to waste other things dealing with them as the warriors can - in my use of the Endless Swarm the warriors are generally not all that useful. With 2 RC/ST warriors and one barbed strangler you should be able to down a pod in two turns of combat assuming my mental math is correct. You still have one elite slot left - I'm suggesting that you put a zoan or two in there, though perhaps that wsn't too clear. If you have issues with psychic just only cast what you really need, and if you need to speed the game up move the front gaunt in your turn, then in your opponent's follow it up with the reat of the squad, saves tons of time.
I'm not sold on the toxin sacs. They used to be great, but since you no longer get the re-roll for anything that is the same toughness, I need the adrenal glands to get a re-roll just on GEQ. If I'm fighting GEQ without adrenal glands, then the poison is useless. If I'm fighting MEQ with adrenal glands and poison, the poison is useless. I can see the adrenal because it lets me glance vehicles and makes a direct impact, and if I find after a couple of test games that the deveourers are not pulling there weight, that might be a direction to send those points in. Toxin sacs in seventh though are close to useless in my book for the points that they cost.
Now the devourers, that's to give my gaunts just a little bit of a bite, preferably at extreme range turn two, or if I'm lucky before that. If they are shooting buckets of dice at people, they tend to re-direct fire towards them. Then when they come back and port through the trygon tunnel, they have an arrival turn impact, and again, they draw fire, likely right at the time that my offense is smashing into the enemy.
Toxin is not for fighting GEQ. Point for point it's very similar to bare hormas VS MEQs as well. Its at T5+ that it pays dividends, and this is where the purpose of the hormas changes. You use it to drown high toughness things in wounds - things like Cents, MCs and GCs even. You put 15 wounds on a WK with 20 hormas, and statistically 3.333 will stick. With poison Hormas the aim is that you don't need a Dima or similar to deal with GCs. Adrenal on the other hand is generally not worth it - yeah you can glance AV10, but if you have flyrants or similar you really don't need that ability. I could see running one squad of AG hormas perhaps, but no more than that.
Devs are indeed nice via Trygon tunnels I will admit. The problem is that on the board the enemy can generally easily avoid them. I do really like them, but you need to choose where to invest - go full hog on the swarm or add in some other stuff. You could swap to minimum hormas for fast obj grabbers and run bigger terma blobs, even.
2015/11/03 17:00:09
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
I'm hoping Mawlocs stay the same in the new Tyranid Codex that is rumoured for Q1 2016, or at least terror from the deep. Thanks to the Kauyon book you can guarantee Ignore Cover/Hit and Run for the White Scars Relics/CT, so you only need to worry about getting Invisibility and Prescience off (Librarius Conclave comes to mind). Maybe Gates if you want to DS around the place.
YMDC = nightmare
2015/11/04 14:25:07
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
seapheonix wrote: Hey everybody, I'm planning out my next TSHFT army, and I want to give a good old swarm a try, like real swarm. I expect it will be quite the challenge to manage games in two and half hours, but I want to give it a go.
I've tested this list under ITC rules, and while it felt pretty strong I could'nt get in 5 turns under the time limits. I'm a slow player, but maybe you could do it -
9 sources of synapse and two forward points of entry for returning units. No teeth to speak of, it wins by playing the mission and cover the board in critters. Expect to lose on kill points.
Won against a triple IK list with Flyer formation backup. Hormagaunts move and run and surround stuff, they don't necessarily charge.
2015/11/04 16:34:52
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
I like the idea of just surrounding imperial knights. and not charging them. Holds them up for another turn, and they risk shooting themselves in the foot. The time crunch is a primary concern of mine for the games.
~seapheonix
2015/11/04 19:02:05
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
seapheonix wrote: Hey everybody, I'm planning out my next TSHFT army, and I want to give a good old swarm a try, like real swarm. I expect it will be quite the challenge to manage games in two and half hours, but I want to give it a go.
I've tested this list under ITC rules, and while it felt pretty strong I could'nt get in 5 turns under the time limits. I'm a slow player, but maybe you could do it -
9 sources of synapse and two forward points of entry for returning units. No teeth to speak of, it wins by playing the mission and cover the board in critters. Expect to lose on kill points.
Won against a triple IK list with Flyer formation backup. Hormagaunts move and run and surround stuff, they don't necessarily charge.
I am working on a very similar list (rippers for obsec, 1 non-prime trygon). Glad to hear it worked well. Not surprised it plays slow.
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
2015/11/10 00:00:27
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
Jy2's review on the front page pretty much sums it up. No and no, is your short answer.
While I like the concept of the maleceptor, the execution of its design is rather flawed. Basically, the maleceptor is a psychic Tyranid unit who provides psychic firepower as well as Synapse support. Now before I get into why he is flawed, I'd like to discuss why you may want to consider him in your army and how you could use him.
1. He is a support unit that provides Synapse and Shadows coverage for the army. He contributes to the warp dice pool.
2. His main offense, the Psychic Overload psychic power, is one of the very few weapons in the Tyranid arsenal that ignores cover. It is also a focussed witchfire, meaning he has the chance to snipe out particular models in a unit.
3. Psychic Overload actually makes for a nice combo with Shadows in the Warp against enemy psykers, especially solitary units like monstrous creatures or the very annoying Eldar farseer with the Mantle.
4. He is still a monstrous creature, which makes him a threat to enemy infantry and tanks.
5. Psychic Overload isn't his only power. He also gets Dominion and another randomly generated power.
6. He has an Invulnerable save, which makes him just slightly more survivable in close combat, but only to units with power weapons and such.
7. Since his shooting is all done in the psychic phase, he can target a different unit than he wants to assault, and he can run even after "shooting". - tag8833
Despite his force-multiplier capabilities, what makes him so flawed?
1. Be design, he sucks up more warp dice than he generates. He's like a psychic vacuum, only he kills your own warp pool instead of your opponents. He can cast Psychic Overload up to 3 times against different opponents. Problem is, Psychic Overload is a WC2 power. To even cast it semi-reliably, you're going to have to use 4 dice. If you want to cast it 3 times, you're going to expend about 12 dice. Well, the maleceptor only contributes 2 dice to the warp pool so in essence, you will be taking valuable dice away from the other psychic units in the army to cast his powers. The maleceptor is a rare unit indeed. Instead of being a force-multiplier, or a unit that helps the army overall, he is actually a force-divider.
2. Psychic powers just aren't reliable enough. Using 4 dice gives him a 75% chance at success only and then the opponent gets a chance to deny. Now normal targets will have a hard time, but against a psychic target, they are denying on a 5+. And against a psychic unit with a Lvl 3 psyker in it, he is going to be very easily able to deny on a 4+. And then they would have to fail a LD test, even if it is on 3D6. A LD10 target will fail his test only about half of the times.
3. Poor Ballistic Skill. On top of the unreliability that are psychic powers, he still has to hit on 4's due to being BS3 only. Now if psychic shooting was his secondary offense, it wouldn't be so bad. But because his psychic shooting IS his offense, you need something more reliable, which is what he isn't.
4. 4+ save? Are you kidding me? What the heck were the designers thinking? All of the land-based Tyranid MC's have 3+ saves and the toxicrene has Shroud for a potential 2+/3+ cover, but 4+ on a ground MC makes him quite a glass cannon MC. You HAVE to keep him within range of a malan/venomthrope, at least if you want to keep him alive from enemy shooting. In Assault, this guy can be killed by any marine with a krak grenade. There isn't another TMC that is quite as fragile as the maleceptor.
5. He is expensive. For a unit as fragile as he is and whose offense is as unreliable as his, he just isn't worth the points. Even if the maleceptor were to come down by 50-pts, I'd have to think about whether I would use him or not, but at his current cost, he is a no-brainer. Actually, let me shorten that for you. He is a NO. For any of his roles, almost every other unit in the codex can do it more efficiently.
6. Psychic Overload can only kill one model at the most. It targets a model not a unit, and that model (if it fails leadership) takes D3 wounds, but extras do not carry over to the unit. - tag8833
The concept of a brain-bug is cool, but GW really dropped the ball on the unit design. Fortunately for them, you can build the kit as the toxicrene instead, so it's not a total loss. But in terms of the maleceptor, that guy is pure fail with a capital F.
Iechine wrote: Jy2's review on the front page pretty much sums it up. No and no, is your short answer.
While I like the concept of the maleceptor, the execution of its design is rather flawed. Basically, the maleceptor is a psychic Tyranid unit who provides psychic firepower as well as Synapse support. Now before I get into why he is flawed, I'd like to discuss why you may want to consider him in your army and how you could use him.
1. He is a support unit that provides Synapse and Shadows coverage for the army. He contributes to the warp dice pool.
2. His main offense, the Psychic Overload psychic power, is one of the very few weapons in the Tyranid arsenal that ignores cover. It is also a focussed witchfire, meaning he has the chance to snipe out particular models in a unit.
3. Psychic Overload actually makes for a nice combo with Shadows in the Warp against enemy psykers, especially solitary units like monstrous creatures or the very annoying Eldar farseer with the Mantle.
4. He is still a monstrous creature, which makes him a threat to enemy infantry and tanks.
5. Psychic Overload isn't his only power. He also gets Dominion and another randomly generated power.
6. He has an Invulnerable save, which makes him just slightly more survivable in close combat, but only to units with power weapons and such.
7. Since his shooting is all done in the psychic phase, he can target a different unit than he wants to assault, and he can run even after "shooting". - tag8833
Despite his force-multiplier capabilities, what makes him so flawed?
1. Be design, he sucks up more warp dice than he generates. He's like a psychic vacuum, only he kills your own warp pool instead of your opponents. He can cast Psychic Overload up to 3 times against different opponents. Problem is, Psychic Overload is a WC2 power. To even cast it semi-reliably, you're going to have to use 4 dice. If you want to cast it 3 times, you're going to expend about 12 dice. Well, the maleceptor only contributes 2 dice to the warp pool so in essence, you will be taking valuable dice away from the other psychic units in the army to cast his powers. The maleceptor is a rare unit indeed. Instead of being a force-multiplier, or a unit that helps the army overall, he is actually a force-divider.
2. Psychic powers just aren't reliable enough. Using 4 dice gives him a 75% chance at success only and then the opponent gets a chance to deny. Now normal targets will have a hard time, but against a psychic target, they are denying on a 5+. And against a psychic unit with a Lvl 3 psyker in it, he is going to be very easily able to deny on a 4+. And then they would have to fail a LD test, even if it is on 3D6. A LD10 target will fail his test only about half of the times.
3. Poor Ballistic Skill. On top of the unreliability that are psychic powers, he still has to hit on 4's due to being BS3 only. Now if psychic shooting was his secondary offense, it wouldn't be so bad. But because his psychic shooting IS his offense, you need something more reliable, which is what he isn't.
4. 4+ save? Are you kidding me? What the heck were the designers thinking? All of the land-based Tyranid MC's have 3+ saves and the toxicrene has Shroud for a potential 2+/3+ cover, but 4+ on a ground MC makes him quite a glass cannon MC. You HAVE to keep him within range of a malan/venomthrope, at least if you want to keep him alive from enemy shooting. In Assault, this guy can be killed by any marine with a krak grenade. There isn't another TMC that is quite as fragile as the maleceptor.
5. He is expensive. For a unit as fragile as he is and whose offense is as unreliable as his, he just isn't worth the points. Even if the maleceptor were to come down by 50-pts, I'd have to think about whether I would use him or not, but at his current cost, he is a no-brainer. Actually, let me shorten that for you. He is a NO. For any of his roles, almost every other unit in the codex can do it more efficiently.
6. Psychic Overload can only kill one model at the most. It targets a model not a unit, and that model (if it fails leadership) takes D3 wounds, but extras do not carry over to the unit. - tag8833
The concept of a brain-bug is cool, but GW really dropped the ball on the unit design. Fortunately for them, you can build the kit as the toxicrene instead, so it's not a total loss. But in terms of the maleceptor, that guy is pure fail with a capital F.
Grades: F
Well poop, thanks for the reply, guess he will be converted into a Hive tyrant or carnafex
I would sign this contract but I already ate the potato
GENERATION 9: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
2015/11/10 13:51:13
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
@NIB. Fair enough, why not is a pretty good reason for anything, but what is getting put in the spores to do some good? I read you as having four empty spores, which while alright, it's a lot of stuff, your getting less then half the function you want out of them.
If you aren't putting anything in them, why not just get the sporocyte instead. You get to place it better then the drop pod, you still can't assault anything, but at least in addition to having the weapons, you have the spores and mucolid popping out. It could man the aegis with a comms relay that you would want to make everything come in somewhat together.
~seapheonix
2015/11/11 22:17:03
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)
2500
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1750 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
