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LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Except your first comment was I picked favorable things for arguements which means you are oblivious as to an off hand comment. There wasnt anything to discuss. What did I miss? I was at the game he rolled 5-6 and said it was rough. You were not there so hard for you to comment but look at that you did anyway. I wasnt talking numbers or strength of codex. So no luna I think your were the one whomissed the point and decided to share your opinion because you do not care for my pov or comments.

Just like your Tyranid multi wound creature vs force weapon right? where you based everything off comparing it to a Trygon?
Or how favorable situations you place against the purifier cleansing flame?

Listen Draigo, Im not going to get into a stupid off topic debate with youi, however.
If you have issues with people seeing and pointing flaws in your ideas, maybe think it over first before using it in a discussion thread.

Lastly, remember this IS a discussion thread, dont take it to offense when people disagree with you.

Especially they do it politely
logically
with support ( agree or disagree, atleast its presented before you eyes )

lol flaws in ideas? How is there a flaw in a observation? If you see someone on the street say the weather is nice when its raining do you feel the need to comment? I really do think you are clueless. An offhand comment is nothing like the nid vs gk discussion. If I had stated sob vs gk and not said off hand this happenned and wasnt good ok but I really think you misunderstood the point and due to past discussions felt you had to point out something that wasnt there to begin with. You did not commet on petres comment sayin yea i know I would like that too. So I see a bias. I wasnt comparing anything or debating till you decided to say im picking favorable things for debate. I was NOT debating anything but I am annoyed since I cant even make any type of comment without you trying to start a debate over nothing.

dropdown wrote:Also power fists are not worth 25 points, there is no situation where it is better to whack away with a pfist vs shoot with your whole army.

There is...

simultaneous deep strikes with melee oriented units or CC monstrous creatures.

how many crakmissile or lascannons is enough to take care of those?

<Luna, Draigo - go back to your corners; when you hear the bell, come out swinging!>

There will be no bell. Calm down, and stop discussing posting styles.

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

I've said this before, but everytime I go to a tournament with my Sisters I cross my fingers and hope for terminator armies with Draigo right at the top.

They just don't stand a chance.

This makes me want to take my Draigowing up against Amerikon's Battle Sisters this upcoming Thurs.

I find it kind of fun to play an "underdog" army sometimes.

I'm not sure you are the underdog. lol Though I also hope to play them again this saturday at the tourney. Im interested to see the jacob bomb, dominion squads and the tanks. From the first game I was certainly suprised that they were considered a sub par book. Im not sure about their pt costs or other options but that list seemed pretty competitive. Scouting dominions, pretty solid cc unit and reasonably good range seemed like a good list that fullfils the requirements that most competitive lists are compared to.

LunaHound wrote:

dropdown wrote:Also power fists are not worth 25 points, there is no situation where it is better to whack away with a pfist vs shoot with your whole army.

There is...

simultaneous deep strikes with melee oriented units or CC monstrous creatures.

how many crakmissile or lascannons is enough to take care of those?

Not sure what that means, I'm talking about vanilla/BA tac squads. If deep strikers show up they get to eat a turn of shooting, charge 2-3 things then get shot up again your next shooting phase.

IF a MC charges a combat squad I'd rather fall back and kill it in the next turn of shooting than wail on it for 2-3 turns with a powerfist. It's not like it takes a ton of fire to down a MC.

Eldar Guardians, Storm Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, Termagaunts, Necron Warriors, Dire Avengers, Cabal Warriors, Tyranid Warriors, and Genestealers would like a word with you on that. All lose to equal points worth of Tac Marines in either the shooting or CC front (most both), are completely helpless against walkers that hit them in CC, and cannot rally below half strength. Hell, all a Tac squad has to do is sit in cover and they autowin against equal points of any Nid troop choice, and one frag missile a turn will outshoot the cross eyed Tau from futher down range than they can even retaliate. As a Xenos player, I can say this with utter conviction: There is no Xenos army out there that would not trade its entire list of core troop choices for Tactical Marines (or Strike Marines, for that matter), outside of Orks.

lol
Most of your examples outright win point to point in their preferred combat specialties.
170p of ork boys go through a tac squad in melee as do genesteelers and 170p worth of guardians rapidshoot like crazy compared to a tac squad just as 170p of shootaboys will handle a tac squad in shooting.
The little advantage of the tac is that it can do everything albeit piss poorly.
You basically end up with 9 rarely used bolters guarding a missile launcher on an objective praying that nobody will assault them or start a serious firefight or stick them in transports in order to support the real damage dealers elsewhere in the army and pray to the dice gods that your paper thin rhino coffin doesnt get blown up stranding 225p worth of crap in the middle of nowhere with only one heavy weapon being able to reach out and sometimes touch something.

Plus there is a thing called terrain that is easily used by any sane opponent so very few instances of long ranged guardian fire vs tac fire will occur in the open without cover but then again the empirical evidence is with me untill you find me lots and lots of examples of highly competitive vanilla SM armies that are heavily built around the tac squad where said squad takes the major role in the list as contrary to just a few for the sake of obj grabbing and peripheral support.

It has been said that a lot of people that complain about GK being OP don't play GK (DOK! =)). Well, I have seen a few games and played a few games as GK sofar, won a few tournaments with them and I still think they are easy mode..I think some GK lists are tame and balanced and a challenge to win with and others are just so strong that it doesn't take much effort or skill to win with =/. I think one major point is that the codex has so many strong options with little drawbacks that opponents are so outclassed (except maybe some of the newer SM armies and IG).

Lately I've been tossing around Draigo Wing and its just sad to see a unit of Paladins just munch through an entire army, I feel so bad for the other players since I have or have had their respective armies. Oh well,

This thread is just filled with so many inaccuracies and diarrhea of the mouth. Even when logically posting the facts, there is nothing but a bunch of
psychobabble that follows.

Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true. The few out there that say they are not, are just that; the few.

They are an upward battle for many different armies, and are a hard counter to many more. They have access to mutliple game breaking powers and equipment, and pay nothing
or near nothing in points for it.

They sure do have cool miniatures though.

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

I agree with this. Obviously, the GK have what it takes to deal with the more recent armies and metas, older armies have a disadvantage as they are limited in what they can do and how effectively they do it. Think of the Polish army during WWII, they had put up a good fight but just were overwhelmed by superior technology and so on.

For example, my Draigo wing army smashes books like CSM, TAU and various SM armies but it is a much more even fight against many of the newer books. Eldar, surprisingly, can still do really well given the right build which is pretty neat.

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

You are over-generalizing.

IG = Largely #1, and has been that way since 3rd edition. The massed pie plates + Las and melta spam kill MEQ. Nothing new here.
SW = A powerful codex, but pales in comparison to the Grey Knights for a myriad of reasons. Space Wolves can't out shoot and can't out assault Grey Knights. They can beat them sometimes, but it is
at a disadvantage.
BA = Similar to SW, but even at more of a disadvantage than SW.
DE = Largely invalidated by competitive Grey Knight lists because of the Psyriflemen. The Psyriflemen turns the matchup into a "bad" matchup for DE. If you take out the Psyriflemen, the DE can
win consistently again.

IG Largely #1 since 3rd Ed? What? It wasn't until the new book that IG suddenly got very, very good. 5th Helped a lot even with the 3rd Ed Codex, but back then, they really weren't that great at all.

3rd and 4th were largely about Eldar and Chaos, with Tyranids being crazy good during 4th.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:IG Largely #1 since 3rd Ed? What? It wasn't until the new book that IG suddenly got very, very good. 5th Helped a lot even with the 3rd Ed Codex, but back then, they really weren't that great at all.

3rd and 4th were largely about Eldar and Chaos, with Tyranids being crazy good during 4th.

Oh no. I used to play IG in 3rd edition. I ran a list with 3 Leman Russ Battletanks and massed Lascannons. Things were a lot different back then.

That is all it took. I lost maybe 1-2 times in 30-40 games. In fact, I remember the few losses I had. One of them was to a Space Wolf player that tailored his list
and completely deep striked me. The other one was to a deep striking Tyranid list, and that one was really close.

Kairos wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

You are over-generalizing.

IG = Largely #1, and has been that way since 3rd edition. The massed pie plates + Las and melta spam kill MEQ. Nothing new here.
SW = A powerful codex, but pales in comparison to the Grey Knights for a myriad of reasons. Space Wolves can't out shoot and can't out assault Grey Knights. They can beat them sometimes, but it is
at a disadvantage.
BA = Similar to SW, but even at more of a disadvantage than SW.
DE = Largely invalidated by competitive Grey Knight lists because of the Psyriflemen. The Psyriflemen turns the matchup into a "bad" matchup for DE. If you take out the Psyriflemen, the DE can
win consistently again.

Sorry... I guess I just disagree with you on this and there isn't much either of us could say to change the other's mind. SW can put enough GHs on the board to swamp GK lists and do Razor/Missile spam well enough to handle Fortituded vehicles. BA have mobility and FNP to help them stay alive versus most GK shooting while avoiding the nasty NFWs. They can also put out enough melta/las/plas to kill expensive GKs and their vehicles. DE is more of a toss-up depending on the GK build and the DE build. I just see GKs as arguably the best of the 5th Ed books (SWs are real close imo), but not far enough ahead to warrant the complaints leveled against them. But you don't agree, and that's fine. To each their own.

Kairos wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

You are over-generalizing.

IG = Largely #1, and has been that way since 3rd edition. The massed pie plates + Las and melta spam kill MEQ. Nothing new here.
SW = A powerful codex, but pales in comparison to the Grey Knights for a myriad of reasons. Space Wolves can't out shoot and can't out assault Grey Knights. They can beat them sometimes, but it is
at a disadvantage.
BA = Similar to SW, but even at more of a disadvantage than SW.
DE = Largely invalidated by competitive Grey Knight lists because of the Psyriflemen. The Psyriflemen turns the matchup into a "bad" matchup for DE. If you take out the Psyriflemen, the DE can
win consistently again.

IG = solid
SW= does not pale and only has issues maybe with draigowing(cept maybe drop pod sw since theyre more mobile). Otherwise rhinos/psybacks pop real nice for long fangs. They arent that bad off in cc if they run twc. Plus rune priests can be really helpful along with the mass anti psy talismans.
BA= DOA maybe but spamming dreadnaughst or AV 13 can hang with any gk build.
DE= didnt they say that about long fangs? Guess it didnt matter that much.. So instead of needing 5-15 "pens" you need one with a dread.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think all of these books can win on any given day personally ut my top 3 would be IG, SW and GK.

Draigo wrote:

Kairos wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are overpowered, any seasoned 40K veteran with a deeper knowledge of the game knows it is true.

Yeah... that's not a huge, sweeping over-generalization.... at all.

If anything, they are OP against the older books... just like ALL the 5th Edition books are against the older books! Against the big players of SW, IG, BA, and DE... GKs match up pretty evenly.

You are over-generalizing.

IG = Largely #1, and has been that way since 3rd edition. The massed pie plates + Las and melta spam kill MEQ. Nothing new here.
SW = A powerful codex, but pales in comparison to the Grey Knights for a myriad of reasons. Space Wolves can't out shoot and can't out assault Grey Knights. They can beat them sometimes, but it is
at a disadvantage.
BA = Similar to SW, but even at more of a disadvantage than SW.
DE = Largely invalidated by competitive Grey Knight lists because of the Psyriflemen. The Psyriflemen turns the matchup into a "bad" matchup for DE. If you take out the Psyriflemen, the DE can
win consistently again.

IG = solid
SW= does not pale and only has issues maybe with draigowing(cept maybe drop pod sw since theyre more mobile). Otherwise rhinos/psybacks pop real nice for long fangs. They arent that bad off in cc if they run twc. Plus rune priests can be really helpful along with the mass anti psy talismans.
BA= DOA maybe but spamming dreadnaughst or AV 13 can hang with any gk build.
DE= didnt they say that about long fangs? Guess it didnt matter that much.. So instead of needing 5-15 "pens" you need one with a dread.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think all of these books can win on any given day personally ut my top 3 would be IG, SW and GK.

"SW= does not pale and only has issues maybe with draigowing(cept maybe drop pod sw since theyre more mobile). Otherwise rhinos/psybacks pop real nice for long fangs. They arent that bad off in cc if they run twc. Plus rune priests can be really helpful along with the mass anti psy talismans."
Purifier Spam in Rhino's\Razorbacks is completely superior to GH spam. Psyriflemen pop SW transports easier and more reliably than Long Fangs, and are not nearly as vulnerable. TWC die to halberds + force weapons, and just evaporate to Paladins.
Not only this, but in a TAC list, it isn't even a consideration. The Purifier Spam build has an overwhelming advantage against other TAC horde lists like Orks and Tyranids.

"BA= DOA maybe but spamming dreadnaughst or AV 13 can hang with any gk build."
Hang is the key word here. They maybe able to hang, but they are at a disadvantage and they know it. Player skill being equal, the GK player will win more often than the BA player with MSU lists.

"DE= didnt they say that about long fangs? Guess it didnt matter that much.. So instead of needing 5-15 "pens" you need one with a dread."
Totally different situation. Long Fangs are extremely vulnerable to DE weaponry, especially venom spam builds. Psyriflemen are not. Only dark lances, blasters, and heat lances realistically threaten Psyriflemen, and you have to get within
18" to use blasters. Heat lances are 18" ST6 Melta, so you need to be within 9" for them to be effective. Dark Lances are ST8 Lance, which is a loosing proposition against 3+ Psyriflemen with Fortitude.

I acknowledged the paladin issue but if they run more then 5 below 2k pally can get extremely pricey which hinders what else is in the list. Paladins can be doubled out by Long fangs and the other shooting. Since the sw player can focus fire there on the big squad.

BA can cause issues with AV 13 or dreads because many gk players are shorting themselves hammers for cc vs dreads etc. So I wouldnt sell them short and outside of a lot of rends psycanons will have issues with 11 dreads that BA can field.

3 dreads with 12 shots vs 3 targets doesnt strike me as better then 15 with a possible 15 targets. Most splinter weapons wont phase LF till possibly turn 2 since they have limited range as well where missiles, las etc dont.

But I do think lists can definately give a certain army a big advantage so really comparing units in vaccum isnt proving ether of our sides all that well.

Draigo wrote:I acknowledged the paladin issue but if they run more then 5 below 2k pally can get extremely pricey which hinders what else is in the list. Paladins can be doubled out by Long fangs and the other shooting. Since the sw player can focus fire there on the big squad.

BA can cause issues with AV 13 or dreads because many gk players are shorting themselves hammers for cc vs dreads etc. So I wouldnt sell them short and outside of a lot of rends psycanons will have issues with 11 dreads that BA can field.

3 dreads with 12 shots vs 3 targets doesnt strike me as better then 15 with a possible 15 targets. Most splinter weapons wont phase LF till possibly turn 2 since they have limited range as well where missiles, las etc dont.

But I do think lists can definately give a certain army a big advantage so really comparing units in vaccum isnt proving ether of our sides all that well.

"BA can cause issues with AV 13 or dreads because many gk players are shorting themselves hammers for cc vs dreads etc. So I wouldnt sell them short and outside of a lot of rends psycanons will have issues with 11 dreads that BA can field."
Most competitive Grey Knight lists run a daemon hammer in each squad. Most Paladin units have at least 2. 11 dreads would be interesting, but I would count on at least 2 of them going down\stunned each turn to Psyriflemen. If the BA player is running
11 dreads, he does not have many points left for the rest of his army. If there is a Librarian involved, Might of Titan would be devastating to the Dreads in a multi assault.

"3 dreads with 12 shots vs 3 targets doesnt strike me as better then 15 with a possible 15 targets. Most splinter weapons wont phase LF till possibly turn 2 since they have limited range as well where missiles, las etc dont."
Splinter Cannons can threaten the Long Fangs on turn 1, as they have a 36" range. Deploy 12", move 12", shoot 36". If the Dark Eldar player goes first, it is very possible to have 2 or even all 3 of those Long Fang squads completely wiped out before the SW player can even use them.

Draigo wrote:I acknowledged the paladin issue but if they run more then 5 below 2k pally can get extremely pricey which hinders what else is in the list. Paladins can be doubled out by Long fangs and the other shooting. Since the sw player can focus fire there on the big squad.

BA can cause issues with AV 13 or dreads because many gk players are shorting themselves hammers for cc vs dreads etc. So I wouldnt sell them short and outside of a lot of rends psycanons will have issues with 11 dreads that BA can field.

3 dreads with 12 shots vs 3 targets doesnt strike me as better then 15 with a possible 15 targets. Most splinter weapons wont phase LF till possibly turn 2 since they have limited range as well where missiles, las etc dont.

But I do think lists can definately give a certain army a big advantage so really comparing units in vaccum isnt proving ether of our sides all that well.

So blood angels need 11 dreads to beat GK but GK are not over-powered. If that 11 dred list faces dark eldar, IG, hell even space wolves it would get curb stomped. The reason grey knights are so good is you have to either build an all comers that can take on a majority of the meta or build a list that can take on grey knights and hope you dont get those other match-ups. The only army that can fine that median decently is IG as we never need to assault we can just shoot and then shoot some more.

I lol'ed at TWC charging grey knights. You have heard of rad and psychotrope grenades right?

*Clicks "jump to first unread"*
*Sees same arguments as 30 pages ago*
*Jumps to last page*
*Sees same arguments as 6 pages ago*
*Unsubscribes from thread. Shakes head sadly.*

I see now everyons is finally mentioning other armys.

This is what i want to discuss, if we are going to prove GK are by far the best book in a decade then it must be compared with the other "best" books.

But unit vs unit discussion is point less. example. someone said that a dreadnought can be scoring. compared to a tac squad who can score and mvoe forward in a rhino with melta.

To make a dread score, you will need a 200 point GM, with the dread that is 335 points compared to 205 points.

also unit vs unit comparison will never end, there will always be another unit better than the current one.

We need to discuss armies on the whole. Yes sure paladins are amazing and purifers are even better.

But in a list you only have like 6 squad of them with 3 heavy support. 5 man in a rhino can be killed easily.

people may think orks are at a disadvantage but my orks vs my purifers have won most of them time because after the rhinos are gone, massed shooting from shoota boys will kill 5 guys no problem

The lengths people will go to in order to refuse admitting their army is OP is outstanding.
I have a friend who plays BA and he insists that eldar are over-powered because Howling Banshees beat his assault units...lol.
Also having universally fast vehicles is apparently not that much of an advantage.
Popular opinion is pretty conclusive, though.

It’s a pity that the discussion in the article on Dakka about how OP Grey Knights are didn’t get around to explaining how Strikes are one of the worst troop choices in the game before I turned in my list. Guess I’ll have to make due

Hulksmash gave this thread a shout out!

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2012/02/dark-star-list.html

I'm funny.....

And GK's still aren't OP, just a solid codex in a block of solid codexes.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm funny.....

And GK's still aren't OP, just a solid codex in a block of solid codexes.

I found it amusing.

And agreed.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm funny.....

And GK's still aren't OP, just a solid codex in a block of solid codexes.

I believe your just too stubborn to admit they are an over powered codex. Btw you mean 26-52 S7 rending shots per turn unless I missed something.

pretre wrote:

It’s a pity that the discussion in the article on Dakka about how OP Grey Knights are didn’t get around to explaining how Strikes are one of the worst troop choices in the game before I turned in my list. Guess I’ll have to make due

Hulksmash gave this thread a shout out!

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2012/02/dark-star-list.html

I wonder what the meta will be in the locale where he's playing that. At face value it appears like it's going to have a very tough time against IG. Thats sort of par for the course for GKs though. I'd like to play against that list, without halberds or grenades GKs can actually be fun to play against.

@tombking

You missed the terminator armor on one psycannon, meaning it's always 4 shots

@shuma

I'd be lying if I said some of the appeal of the list wasn't the fact that I'm not using the toys most people use. That and foot lists are fun.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm funny.....

And GK's still aren't OP, just a solid codex in a block of solid codexes.

I don't think people are using the term overpowered correctly. When it's solidly in contention with two codexes that themselves were considered overpowered (IG and Space Wolves) and is solidly above the rest of the game then it's overpowered. "Overpowered" and "unbeatable" are not the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:@tombking

You missed the terminator armor on one psycannon, meaning it's always 4 shots

@shuma

I'd be lying if I said some of the appeal of the list wasn't the fact that I'm not using the toys most people use. That and foot lists are fun.

That very reason is why i picked up some scout bikes the other day

Pyriel- wrote:

Eldar Guardians, Storm Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, Termagaunts, Necron Warriors, Dire Avengers, Cabal Warriors, Tyranid Warriors, and Genestealers would like a word with you on that. All lose to equal points worth of Tac Marines in either the shooting or CC front (most both), are completely helpless against walkers that hit them in CC, and cannot rally below half strength. Hell, all a Tac squad has to do is sit in cover and they autowin against equal points of any Nid troop choice, and one frag missile a turn will outshoot the cross eyed Tau from futher down range than they can even retaliate. As a Xenos player, I can say this with utter conviction: There is no Xenos army out there that would not trade its entire list of core troop choices for Tactical Marines (or Strike Marines, for that matter), outside of Orks.

lol
Most of your examples outright win point to point in their preferred combat specialties.
170p of ork boys go through a tac squad in melee as do genesteelers and 170p worth of guardians rapidshoot like crazy compared to a tac squad just as 170p of shootaboys will handle a tac squad in shooting.
The little advantage of the tac is that it can do everything albeit piss poorly.

Ok, point one, your response to my statement that Tacs are better than all Xenos core troops except orks.... was to cite orks in a comparison?
Point two, Tacs, as generalists, have no combat specialties by deffinition,and yet they blow away all of the core of all these other armies in most respects except for sometimes in one conditional area where they might slightly underperform. Specifically, if Genestealers get to tac marines out in the open in equal points, the marines lose badly, but when was the last time you saw Tac marines out in the open against a Nid player?
The Tacs simply have better survivability and options than any non-Ork xenos troops, and most are commonly taken options too. What you call Piss Poorly would be a godsent to nearly every army without the word Marine in its name.

But on topic, like I said 30 pages ago,

GK are very strong and very versitile, but SW and IG are still the better books and the GT results for the past year still reflects that paradigm. Anyone arguing otherwise is simply ignoring the empirical evidence in favor of wallowing in internet hyperbole and butthurt.