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Phazael wrote:Straw man for the win!

I was comparing Tac Marines directly to Strike Squads, not Psyflemen, Greyhunters, BA Assault Marines, or any of the other half dozen well known power units people are pulling out of their ass to make Tac Marines look bad. Tacs get more for their points than Strikes do. This is not even debatable. A tac unit with a missle launcher and fist (or Melta/Fist in a pod) has more tactical applications than a similarly costed Strike Squad, purely in anti-mech ranged options alone. The Strikes kill one or two more MEQs per round of close combat, but they bring nothing else to the table and a ten man Tac squad is not rendered suddenly useless when the enemy moves 25" away.

But, hey feel free to score some epeen points by bagging on me by making unrelated comparissons. And also, there isn't a non MEQ book out there that wouldn't kill to have Tactical Marines as a troop choice. Xenos troop choice make Tac Marines look like Purifiers.

I gotta side with Shuma here, as much as it pains me to do so. You keep throwing the powerfist around like it's amazing, what about a demon hammer? That's just a better powerfist, especially when paired with hammer-hand which makes it S10, and it's CHEAPER. The psycannons add much flexibility; used in a stand and shoot profile they are basically the best weapon in the game that is infantry borne. It works well combined with storm bolters in anti-infantry and can be used in a pinch against all levels of armor as well. It's even effective on the move out to 24" for crying out loud.

Okay, I'd say the Tacticals are more effective against AV13 and with a missile >30" ranges but the strikes will out shoot them with storm-bolters, will tear them apart in assault with force weapons, which combined with hammer hand makes their melee attacks 4 times as effective against MeQ as normal marines (3 times w/o HH), 8 times more effective against FnP MeQ and still overall better against everything else. They are still force weapons as well, which means MCs are significantly easier to gib. They both have ATSKNF and combat squads, so that's a wash. That leaves Warp-quake vs combat tactics. Both situational and not easy to compare but I'd take a proactive "Deep-strike screw up" versus a "Lewl, we screwed, run 'fer it" skill any day.

10 Tacticals, Melta-gun, MM or missile, powerfist, combi-melta, rhino with dozer = ~250
10 Strikes, 2 Psycannons, Demon-hammer, rhino with dozer = 275

25 points for hammer-hand, storm bolters, force weapons, warp quake, fortitude on the rhino, psyk-out grenades, Aegis and all the bonuses against demons as icing on the cake. For another 20 points those storm bolters become a threat to rhinos, and a serious threat to AV10.

I'm not claiming Strikes are the best troops around, because they aren't, but tactical marines are basically the worst 5th edition troops in the game ATM.

Edit; forgot psyk-out grenades!

A tac unit with a missle launcher and fist (or Melta/Fist in a pod) has more tactical applications than a similarly costed Strike Squad, purely in anti-mech ranged options alone.

I agree with shuma too.

The tac is better at AV duty beyond 24´ but that is it. There is no other benefit to the tac over a strike squad.
Well there is one more thing the tac does better and it is being more durable then the strike squad since tehy both go down just as easy but the tac costs less.
If you want to hunt armour with deepstrike the tac squad all of a sudden becomes just as costly as the strike squad.
The strike squad is far far faaar better at horde and infantry then the tac.
The strike is better at anti armour as well but only within 24´.

Facing each others of point for point like in example having 4 tac squads meet 3 strike squads on the table the tac army will be utterly chanceless against the strikes.

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

I've said this before, but everytime I go to a tournament with my Sisters I cross my fingers and hope for terminator armies with Draigo right at the top.

They just don't stand a chance.

This makes me want to take my Draigowing up against Amerikon's Battle Sisters this upcoming Thurs.

I find it kind of fun to play an "underdog" army sometimes.

The tac is better at AV duty beyond 24´ but that is it. There is no other benefit to the tac over a strike squad.

Price comes to mind....

jy2 wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

That's going to be a tough battle for the GK's. One of the few armies I actually have problems with with my Crowe-Purifiers are tervigon-nids. You may be able to beat him, but unless his generalship is really bad, a board-wipe is highly unlikely. As a matter of fact, it's going to be a tough fight just to win the game.

I have 6 MC's to kill. I just have to play my target identification and prioritization correctly. Your list is close to the norm. I wouldnt of run that many transports and would of foot slogged some of them myself but we will see how it goes. Ill keep a tally of the kill points for fun to see where it ends up at if the purge isnt complete by the bottom of 6.

gendoikari87 wrote:

The tac is better at AV duty beyond 24´ but that is it. There is no other benefit to the tac over a strike squad.

Price comes to mind....

And Las Cannons, Drop Pods, Meltas, and Combat Tactics...

And when I say straw man, I am specifically talking about taking a statement I made "Tac Marines are more flexible than Strike Squads" and then putting up a huge wall of text comparing tactical marines to everything _but_ strike squads.

Most of what make Strike Squads overly good are other things in the book, like being able to generate 2+ cover saves for your entire army if its camping a building and the assanine hammerhand before doubling ruling. Warp Quake is a poorly designed power though, when facing Daemons or Blood Angels, but then those armies are more or less boned by GKs across the board anyhow.

ShumaGorath wrote:They'll be spending half that game either going to ground to avoid losing everyone to two plasma canon shots or moving so that their static 80 point missile (which is still a terrible point value) can see something. Lone marine missile launchers aren't a particularly viable or valuable shooting platform. It's icing on a cake made of trash.

Comments like this one make it very clear that you don't really know how to use these units. Spacing your unit properly means that you will only have 1-2 guys getting hit from a plasma cannon blast at worst, and cover means that even if they hit 4 guys with their two plasma cannon shots (practically a worst-case scenario) you'll only lose two on average, and the heavy weapon won't even be at risk. When you throw in the potential for Bolster Defenses and thus 3+ cover saves (2+ with Go to Ground!), it gets even more ridiculous. I consider the Leman Russ Executioner (for instance) to be an almost useless unit against me-- I normally lose 0-2 guys from 4-5 plasma cannon templates.

Which Tyranid or dark eldar units? Certainly not any of the ones they'd ever actually be in assault with. Oddly, thats true of necrons and IG as well. Tacs tie necrons statistically one on one and lose to basic warriors at cost. It's pathetic. What are tacs beating? Basic guardians? 5 man termagaunt squads? Unsupported dark eldar warriors? That sure sounds useful.

At the last tournament I went to, my Tactical Marines assaulted in two games-- in one, a Combat Squad shot a Scarab unit and finished it off in assault, while another Combat Squad did the same feat with a different unit of Scarabs. In a different game, my Tacticals assaulted and killed a unit of Fire Dragons. That's just my most recent example. In other games, I've used Tacs to finish off depleted Grey Knight squads, assault pretty much anything in the IG army (yes, even blob platoons-- tying them up can be useful in its own right), etc.

ShumaGorath wrote:Razorspam works

No, it doesn't. Razorspam is the epitome of netlisting, and in my experience and the experience of competitive players I've spoken with in my area, Razorspam alone has yet to really win any major event, despite getting talked up a lot online.

ShumaGorath wrote:because MSU provides too many weaponized targets for the average army to engage efficiently. When you have 3 razorbacks suddenly its a lot easier. Razors aren't great for the cost in low numbers. A 70 point lascanon on av11 is kinda lame and razors are bad dedicated transport vehicles.

Interesting idea, but it really doesn't match my experience. At the Bay Area Open GT, my first game was against a mech Blood Angels list with I think 6-7 Razorbacks plus support elements; I was fielding a SM list with 25 Tactical Marines (two full squads, one 5-man squad) and 3 Razorbacks plus various other units. I defeated my opponent through canny use of terrain (and a bit of luck besides)-- but overall I felt that my army generally outclassed my opponent's force.

You might simply reply by saying that I was lucky or that my opponent was bad or something-- in return, I'll point you towards Tony Kopach, generally considered the best 40k player out there, who does very well for himself with a list that also typically includes only 2-3 Razorbacks.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Which you don't have to use. The old standby is 10 Tactical Marines, meltagun, multi-melta, Sergeant with combi-melta, Rhino with dozer blade. This unit is very powerful with or without Combat Squads

No. It isn't. Not for 250 points. It's actually god awful for 250 points.

That doesn't cost 250 points. It costs 225.

ShumaGorath wrote:Theres no making that cost look good for that unit. Almost every other army gets something similar in use and better.

Really? That unit does very well for me, either splitting into an irritating multi-melta support crew and a melta hunter Rhino or moving aggressively into midfield and threatening the enemy directly.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I think MEQs have neither "poor stats" nor "an incredibly poor level of CC ability for their cost." Even a few Marines can easily take out squads from other armies in CC.

A tac marine at 17 PPM base 170/10) has 1 attack. You get 3 ork boyz for that. Thats 9 attacks, 12 on the charge. You get 1.2 grey hunters, thats 2-3 attacks. You get 2 hormugaunts, thats 4 attacks, 6 on the charge. Where exactly are they good or comparable to these units? Hell, IG vets have more CC output then marines at cost. Thats truly pathetic.

Attacks aren't the only stat in the game. Also, Tactical Marines don't cost 17 points, but of course you know that and are just trying to make a point.

ShumaGorath wrote:

You may be using [Combat Tactics] wrong.

Nope, it's just an overtrumped and poor ability that most marine armies scoring well in tournaments don't even have access to... good players don't cause trivial casualties to a squad and thus let you freely fall back when they're setting up for an assault.

This reply frankly proves that you're using it wrong. Combat Tactics isn't limited to denying charges.

ShumaGorath wrote:

If you think that Tactical squads are bad in midfield, you're bad at playing Space Marines.

I'm sure spending 2 turns to set up midfield (thus not shooting that heavy weapon turning them into overcosted and much worse gray hunters) and then being assaulted (and losing because they aren't gray hunters) is what great marine players do every day. Sure.

Normally, my attack elements move up directly, with my Tacticals immediately behind to provide support. The Tacs usually start shooting on turn 2-3 and keep it up for the rest of the game.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Scoring Psyflemen aren't too good. They require specific HQs, can't be reliably fielded in numbers, and make the opponent's target priority completely trivial.

As opposed to sitting with 5 marines in the back as you were advocating? Come now. Do better than that.

I indeed consider 5 Marines with a heavy weapon to be better than a Psyfleman when it comes to scoring objectives.

To be honest, it's difficult to explain why units are viable to someone who clearly doesn't understand how to use them. It's especially frustrating when someone who doesn't know how to use a unit pops into many threads protesting how "bad" the unit is and declaring that his Codex must be underpowered-- imagine that I were to reply to every Ork thread saying that Orks were garbage, that other Codices had surpassed them, that GW needed to give them a buff, all because my Shoota Boyz in Trukks weren't getting the job done in assault!

In general, my first assumption when something doesn't work for me is not that that thing is bad but that I am using it incorrectly, and with a little bit of work a more effective way to use the unit usually shows up. Now, that's not to say there aren't any bad units out there-- there certainly are-- but I wouldn't be so quick to write something off. In general, good players can find unexpected and powerful ways to use things, even when others pooh-pooh them.

oh strike squads are good no doubt, certainly several times better against armies of 3+ with low or no AV vehicles. But guard? I'd rather have the tac squads. For starters because they have FLAMERS, and melta. and you can take more tac squads, and that means you can have more scoring models on the board, and that matters. A lot.

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:I've said this before, but everytime I go to a tournament with my Sisters I cross my fingers and hope for terminator armies with Draigo right at the top.

They just don't stand a chance.

This makes me want to take my Draigowing up against Amerikon's Battle Sisters this upcoming Thurs.

I find it kind of fun to play an "underdog" army sometimes.

heheh. Yeah, it has been scary bad whenever I have played against 2+ armies with my sisters. Could be the generals, but the amount of AP1 I put out is disgusting.

Fetterkey wrote:

Kairos wrote:1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.

And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game.

Kairos wrote:2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.

This does nothing in most games.

Kairos wrote:3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

Orks? Shoot them. Tyranids? Shadow in the Warp. DE close combat armies? Shoot them. Also, remember-- if you have an army with no solutions to armies that can beat them in CC, then you have a bad army.

Kairos wrote:4 - Fortitude

Fortitude is indeed very strong. It's probably the strongest element of the Codex.

Kairos wrote:5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)

Force Weapons are not particularly strong in this edition. Grey Knights are difficult to defeat with

Kairos wrote:6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone

So it can eat melta and die? Why?

Kairos wrote:7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level

Psyflemen are strong but not unstoppable. Other units that already exist in other books are much stronger in this role-- Hydras, for instance.

Kairos wrote:8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted

Uh, no? Space Marine Librarians have powers that are debatably better for far fewer points. Grey Knight Librarians are good, but Null Zone and Gate of Infinity are still unparalleled.

Kairos wrote:9 - Paladin wound allocation

I don't really find this a significant threat. Your mileage may vary, but Nob Bikers aren't really scary anymore, and Nob Bikers 2.0 (now with worse saves and slower movement!) aren't exactly scaring me, even though their shooting power is admittedly quite strong.

Kairos wrote:10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

What about TH/SS Terminators?

Kairos wrote:11 - Warp Quake spam

This sucks for some armies, but has no effect in the majority of games. Also, the armies that Warp Quake spam is good against-- most notably DoA-- aren't viable against Grey Knights anyway. In general, DoA armies do very poorly against armies that can beat them in assault, Warp Quake or no Warp Quake.

Kairos wrote:12 - Teleport Shunting

Post-FAQ, this is entirely balanced and reasonable.

Kairos wrote:13 - Psychotroke Grenades & Rad Grenades

These are very strong but can often be avoided or picked off.

Kairos wrote:14 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

Like what, making a bad version of an IG army?

Kairos wrote:Can they be beat? Absolutely, but they will win far more often than they will loose. They also hard counter many different builds and grossly unbalanced the overall meta game for the worse. In the hands of a really good player with a deep knowledge of the game, they are beyond broken, and if that player can do any list tailoring before a game; forget it.

I shifted two or three units in my list when Grey Knights came out-- just as I shifted two or three units in my list when the Necrons came out recently. New books obviously change the game, but claiming that it's a change for the worse seems to be a rather myopic view. Overall, I think Grey Knights are a book like any other. Just as I had to adjust my list and tactics to deal with Necron Scarabs, I had to adjust my list and tactics to deal with Psyflemen outclassing my Riflemen and with the plethora of psychic powers available to the Knights-- but following these changes, I definitely think my vanilla Marine army can hang with the GK. Overall, I think a lot of these things are just attitude problems. An adaptive player will in most cases be able to shift their build and/or tactics to deal with "new kids on the block" quite easily, especially in the relatively balanced days of 5th edition.

"And substantially worse as a unit. Grey Knight Strike Squads are IMO one of the worst Troops choices in the game."
No. Psycannons, Force Weapons, Storm Bolters, Warp Quake, Hammerhand, Aegis, and Psyke Out Grenades. They are superior in every way to a Tactical squad, they just don't get
a missile launcher, lascannon, multi-melta, etc. So what. Most Grey Knight players don't use them, but the point and comparison still stands.

"Orks? Shoot them. Tyranids? Shadow in the Warp. DE close combat armies? Shoot them. Also, remember-- if you have an army with no solutions to armies that can beat them in CC, then you have a bad army."
Orks - shoot them? Dude.... That is like taking a BBGun to an automatic weapon gunfight. Loota's aren't going to do it, and the Psyriflemen will devastate all of the Ork Mech in the meantime.
DE - shoot them? Really, really, dicey. Statisically, the Grey Knight player will gimp the DE player with the Psyriflemen in most cases. Most compeitive Grey Knight lists are running at least 3 Psyriflemen.
Tyranids - Shadows in the Warp will help, but it won't make it a fair match most of the time.

"Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.
This does nothing in most games."
Actually, it can do a lot when you use a lot of Psykers. You have never played Dual Lash against Draigo Wing with 3 Psyriflemen on the table I take it?
And that is not all, we get a Psychic Hood on top of it! How about that as an added bonus!

"Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted. Uh, no? Space Marine Librarians have powers that are debatably better for far fewer points. Grey Knight Librarians are good, but Null Zone and Gate of Infinity are still unparalleled."
Nope. The Grey Knight Librarian is supeior in every way, and has better synergy with the other Grey Knight units. And he also get's a Warding Stave! How about that!, he can solo most
any Space Marine IC.

"Paladin wound allocation
I don't really find this a significant threat. Your mileage may vary, but Nob Bikers aren't really scary anymore, and Nob Bikers 2.0 (now with worse saves and slower movement!) aren't exactly scaring me, even though their shooting power is admittedly quite strong."
This is huge, and is one of the cornerstones of the Draigo Wing build. It is one of the reasons a fully kitted out Draigo\Librarian+10 Paladin w Apothecary squad can walk thru an endless horde of Ork Boyz.

"10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers.
What about TH/SS Terminators?"
The Paladin's will still likely win. Even against a full 20 Deathwing TH\SS Terminators, a brick of 10 Paladins with Draigo will easily be putting out 30-40 power weapon attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. Return attacks will have to get thru a 3++,2++,2++, and several 4++.

"Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone
So it can eat melta and die? Why?"
So it can eat Melta, and than have a bunch of Paladin's roll up your lines. This is especially poopy against armies without proper assault elements.


Grey Knights are balanced in a vacuum against other Grey Knights. The codex was designed so that lot's and lot's of players would buy the new army, and it wasn't just driven by new pretty models..

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

The example of your arguments to what I considered fallacy, you always pick the numbers, units that favors your arguments without logic.
Since the Exorcist Launcher is D6, the average is 4. However to make it seem more favorable for you, you make it go higher.

One can do the exact same thing in a counter point of saying they are so bad with 1-2 shots only.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

The example of your arguments to what I considered fallacy, you always pick the numbers, units that favors your arguments without logic.
Since the Exorcist Launcher is D6, the average is 4. However to make it seem more favorable for you, you make it go higher.

One can do the exact same thing in a counter point of saying they are so bad with 1-2 shots only.

Yeah even 12 str 8 ap1 shots are going to wreck a pally list, especially when the only reliable anti tank they'll have is max range 24", unless you spring for some psydreds, and then your down to like.... 10 scoring models.

gendoikari87 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

The example of your arguments to what I considered fallacy, you always pick the numbers, units that favors your arguments without logic.
Since the Exorcist Launcher is D6, the average is 4. However to make it seem more favorable for you, you make it go higher.

One can do the exact same thing in a counter point of saying they are so bad with 1-2 shots only.

Yeah even 12 str 8 ap1 shots are going to wreck a pally list, especially when the only reliable anti tank they'll have is max range 24", unless you spring for some psydreds, and then your down to like.... 10 scoring models.

Sir, I think you just missed the point of my post. Im not debating the average of 4.......

Im saying when his logic is picking the numbers above average to make it favorable,
one can do the same, pick the numbers for below average as a counter.

Please re think it over.

Tomb King wrote:I have 6 MC's to kill. I just have to play my target identification and prioritization correctly. Your list is close to the norm. I wouldnt of run that many transports and would of foot slogged some of them myself but we will see how it goes. Ill keep a tally of the kill points for fun to see where it ends up at if the purge isnt complete by the bottom of 6.

Ha! We'll see if anything in power armor is still alive at that point.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:On a side note about sisters.. Those organ tanks are obnoxious when running a walking pally list when your opponent keeps rollin 5-6s shots with all 3..

The example of your arguments to what I considered fallacy, you always pick the numbers, units that favors your arguments without logic.
Since the Exorcist Launcher is D6, the average is 4. However to make it seem more favorable for you, you make it go higher.

One can do the exact same thing in a counter point of saying they are so bad with 1-2 shots only.

No it was an example from a game not using math luna so calm down there killer. It was my one game vs the new sisters and the guy never rollwed below a 4 till the last round. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And lna your comment was just you gettin your hackles up before you got my context due to you disagreeing in the past with me.

A lone game does not make something accurate. Because the dice is random, this is why i kept mentioning logic.

You cannot take your personal experience of a game or 2 and use that as the base of your arguments. Because everyone's luck is different, the situations are different, thats why the most logical thing to do is find the medium, aka average.

1) I am calm, I have been calm, my comments iare logical.

What is hackles up mean?

LunaHound wrote:A lone game does not make something accurate. Because the dice is random, this is why i kept mentioning logic.

You cannot take your personal experience of a game or 2 and use that as the base of your arguments. Because everyone's luck is different, the situations are different, thats why the most logical thing to do is find the medium, aka average.

1) I am calm, I have been calm, my comments iare logical.

What is hackles up mean?

You know luna if saying this game was bad cause he rolled real well only got a reaction outta you. Why do you suppose that is? I was just making an off topic remark about how that was rough. Why does that require you to try to start up a debate about ONE off comment?

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:A lone game does not make something accurate. Because the dice is random, this is why i kept mentioning logic.

You cannot take your personal experience of a game or 2 and use that as the base of your arguments. Because everyone's luck is different, the situations are different, thats why the most logical thing to do is find the medium, aka average.

1) I am calm, I have been calm, my comments iare logical.

What is hackles up mean?

You know luna if saying this game was bad cause he rolled real well only got a reaction outta you. Why do you suppose that is? I was just making an off topic remark about how that was rough. Why does that require you to try to start up a debate about ONE off comment?

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

All Im saying is, for any debates, normally people use the average, instead of the extreme numbers to favor a certain situation.
because when people do that, there are 2 logical reasons

1) The extreme number was picked to favor the certain situation and point.
2) The number while truthful, shows there isnt enough situations that occurred to make the person present an average number. Aka what i mentioned pages back " not enough games played"

Kairos wrote:[Grey Knights have] Psycannons, Force Weapons, Storm Bolters, Warp Quake, Hammerhand, Aegis, and Psyke Out Grenades. They are superior in every way to a Tactical squad, they just don't get
a missile launcher, lascannon, multi-melta, etc. So what. Most Grey Knight players don't use them, but the point and comparison still stands.

Grey Knight Strike Squads certainly are equivalent to or superior to Tactical Squads at most things in game. HOWEVER-- and this is a big "however--" they pay for it in points, and pay too much to really be viable-- especially since most of those abilities won't do anything in any particular matchup! Further, the areas in which the Tactical Squads have the advantage-- most notably killing vehicles and scoring objectives-- are very important areas indeed.

Kairos wrote:Orks - shoot them? Dude.... That is like taking a BBGun to an automatic weapon gunfight. Loota's aren't going to do it, and the Psyriflemen will devastate all of the Ork Mech in the meantime.

Lootas, shootas, kannons, grotzookas-- all of those can easily put some hurt on dismounted Marines. Purifiers may be a tough nut for Orks to crack in close combat, but to shooting they die just like any other Marine.

Kairos wrote:Actually, it can do a lot when you use a lot of Psykers. You have never played Dual Lash against Draigo Wing with 3 Psyriflemen on the table I take it?
And that is not all, we get a Psychic Hood on top of it! How about that as an added bonus!

If your army relies on casting psychic powers to win, it's not an all-comers army because it can't deal with psychic defense.

Kairos wrote:The Grey Knight Librarian is supeior in every way, and has better synergy with the other Grey Knight units. And he also get's a Warding Stave! How about that!, he can solo most
any Space Marine IC.

"Superior in every way" except that he doesn't have the SM Librarian's two best powers, he can't ride in a nromal transport, etc. Is the GK Librarian good? Sure. Is he so good that he makes the SM Librarian (one of the best HQs in the game) nonviable? Hell no. Also, I'm honestly not sure what you're thinking if you actually believe "whose boss would win in a fight" is relevant in modern 40k.

Kairos wrote:Even against a full 20 Deathwing TH\SS Terminators, a brick of 10 Paladins with Draigo will easily be putting out 30-40 power weapon attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. Return attacks will have to get thru a 3++,2++,2++, and several 4++.

Sure, and it will cost way more to boot...

Kairos wrote:"Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone
So it can eat melta and die? Why?"
So it can eat Melta, and than have a bunch of Paladin's roll up your lines. This is especially poopy against armies without proper assault elements.

I can kill a Land Raider and 5 Paladins in one turn if they show up in the middle of my army. This "combo" also costs 500+ points, plus the Librarian, plus various other grades, etc.

Kairos wrote:Grey Knights are balanced in a vacuum against other Grey Knights. The codex was designed so that lot's and lot's of players would buy the new army, and it wasn't just driven by new pretty models..

I find that Grey Knights seem fairly balanced with most other Codices as well as against other Grey Knights. They do have strong matchups against some of the older books, but doesn't everybody? I don't think they're out of line with other 5th edition books, and I will point out that people have complained in this fashion about almost every Codex out there post-release. Once you adapt, you'll find that playing against GK is much the same as any other matchup against a good army-- challenging, but winnable.

IM NOT DEBATING ANYTHING. lol I said it's rough that i had a guy roll well. lol If anyone else made that comment would you be so eager to say anything? If I made a comment it rained in florida would you argue that too? I dont get why you thought I was argueing debating or anything. They were discussing how good the codex was and tac marines. My comment had nothing to do with anything hence why I said side note.

Draigo wrote:IM NOT DEBATING ANYTHING. lol I said it's rough that i had a guy roll well. lol If anyone else made that comment would you be so eager to say anything? If I made a comment it rained in florida would you argue that too? I dont get why you thought I was argueing debating or anything. They were discussing how good the codex was and tac marines. My comment had nothing to do with anything hence why I said side note.

I think you are under a false impression.

We are exchanging our ideas, our views on things. Our views differ, thats expected. But Im pointing out the things you missed.

This does not constitute an argument, or a fight.

Its just a discussion.

ShumaGorath wrote:Stuff about tactical marines in a GK thread

Maybe you should start a Tac marines are sucky thread. You're constantly railing about how GK are better than tac marines, but then you compare them to everything else to prove how bad they are. So what does that have to do with GK?

In other games, I've used Tacs to finish off depleted Grey Knight squads

Moot point since you know, once a few grots of mine went through a depleted Tac squad...so what?

What about TH/SS Terminators?"
The Paladin's will still likely win. Even against a full 20 Deathwing TH\SS Terminators, a brick of 10 Paladins with Draigo will easily be putting out 30-40 power weapon attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. Return attacks will have to get thru a 3++,2++,2++, and several 4++.

Utter BS.
Paladins stand very little chance against hammernators point for point.

Sure when you drag in draigo to make your point look less desperate I agree but then again if you bring in draigo to the melee I will counter it with 275 points worth of hammernators or even better, 190p worth of Vulkan and 85p worth of hammernators if the fight is really big so my 20+ hammers get rerolls to hit.

10 kitted out paladins, if they are now supposedly being made to walk through hordes upon hordes of ork boys, will cost around 700-750 points.
For this I get some 18-19 hammernators.
Now even a kindergarden level mathematician will understand what happens when those forces meet in melee, even after a round of shooting.


As for tacs, pure SM vanilla tacs and not the bizzaro BA and SW versions that work much better within their respective codexes I find pretty fun, not to mention enlightening to see that pretty much zero competitive SM builds ever consider the tac squad as anything other then a necessary evil you just have to drag in because there are somethings called objectives.

I will tell you this and do so with utter conviction, if it werent for objectives NOBODY in their right mind would ever take vanilla tac squads in SM lists unless they loved the idea of constantly loosing.
A more worthless unit is hard to find (besides scouts and LoTD) where you pay for 10 bolters in order to get the option to shoot one heavy weapon and where everything out there either out assaults or out shoots you point for point.
The one and only thing redeeeming the tac from its versality pov are the dark eldar, pretty much the one and only thing that actually makes it worth to ever take the tac heavy bolter since it is better against them then the missile.

Pyriel- wrote:

In other games, I've used Tacs to finish off depleted Grey Knight squads

Moot point since you know, once a few grots of mine went through a depleted Tac squad...so what?

I dont get it either :'/

Pyriel- wrote:
I will tell you this and do so with utter conviction, if it werent for objectives NOBODY in their right mind would ever take vanilla tac squads in SM lists unless they loved the idea of constantly loosing.
A more worthless unit is hard to find (besides scouts and LoTD) where you pay for 10 bolters in order to get the option to shoot one heavy weapon and where everything out there either out assaults or out shoots you point for point.
The one and only thing redeeeming the tac from its versality pov are the dark eldar, pretty much the one and only thing that actually makes it worth to ever take the tac heavy bolter since it is better against them then the missile.

Eldar Guardians, Storm Guardians, Tau Fire Warriors, Termagaunts, Necron Warriors, Dire Avengers, Cabal Warriors, Tyranid Warriors, and Genestealers would like a word with you on that. All lose to equal points worth of Tac Marines in either the shooting or CC front (most both), are completely helpless against walkers that hit them in CC, and cannot rally below half strength. Hell, all a Tac squad has to do is sit in cover and they autowin against equal points of any Nid troop choice, and one frag missile a turn will outshoot the cross eyed Tau from futher down range than they can even retaliate. As a Xenos player, I can say this with utter conviction: There is no Xenos army out there that would not trade its entire list of core troop choices for Tactical Marines (or Strike Marines, for that matter), outside of Orks.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:IM NOT DEBATING ANYTHING. lol I said it's rough that i had a guy roll well. lol If anyone else made that comment would you be so eager to say anything? If I made a comment it rained in florida would you argue that too? I dont get why you thought I was argueing debating or anything. They were discussing how good the codex was and tac marines. My comment had nothing to do with anything hence why I said side note.

I think you are under a false impression.

We are exchanging our ideas, our views on things. Our views differ, thats expected. But Im pointing out the things you missed.

This does not constitute an argument, or a fight.

Its just a discussion.

Except your first comment was I picked favorable things for arguements which means you are oblivious as to an off hand comment. There wasnt anything to discuss. What did I miss? I was at the game he rolled 5-6 and said it was rough. You were not there so hard for you to comment but look at that you did anyway. I wasnt talking numbers or strength of codex. So no luna I think your were the one whomissed the point and decided to share your opinion because you do not care for my pov or comments.

And since when to Strike Squads tear apart Tacticals in CC? Slightly outshoot them, sure, but they are only marginally better in close combat, when you compare a 200 point Fist + Las Cannon unit to a 225 strike squad with hammer and two psy cannons.

GKs-
7 force weapon swings, 3.5 hit, 2.33 wound (assuming Hammerhand), 2 psycannon derps hit once and wound 0.5 which equals 0.17 after saves, so a grand total of 2.5 dead marines on average. If you have no Psycannons, then three dead marines, but who does that?

Tacs-
9 swings, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds resulting in 0.8ish dead GKs.

The hammer and fist are a wash, but essentially contribute one dead guy a turn each. So, it takes a more expensive ten man strike squad four rounds of combat, on average, to grind down an equal sized tac marine squad and they will be almost completely dead afterwards. Call me stupid, but I am not exactly seeing the CC domination here.

Now obviously the side that gets the charge off has a huge leg up in this one, moreso in the case of the Strikes, but that could realistically be either side with these two units and the Strikes still can't tackle most walkers or higher AV vehicles at range with any degree of reliability, so I think the units are pretty much a dead heat, and therefore both pretty much the dogs of their respective codexes, but most Xenos armies would kill to have those kinds of options in their core troops.

Phazael wrote: As a Xenos player, I can say this with utter conviction: There is no Xenos army out there that would not trade its entire list of core troop choices for Tactical Marines (or Strike Marines, for that matter), outside of Orks.

I think that necron immortals are one of the up and comers in the category. They don't get special weapons by default, but they can be customized with the crypteks to suit your needs. Other than that, wyches are good situationally, but they fold to pretty much any shooting and require haemonculous support to live through most anything.

Draigo wrote:Except your first comment was I picked favorable things for arguements which means you are oblivious as to an off hand comment. There wasnt anything to discuss. What did I miss? I was at the game he rolled 5-6 and said it was rough. You were not there so hard for you to comment but look at that you did anyway. I wasnt talking numbers or strength of codex. So no luna I think your were the one whomissed the point and decided to share your opinion because you do not care for my pov or comments.

Just like your Tyranid multi wound creature vs force weapon right? where you based everything off comparing it to a Trygon?
Or how favorable situations you place against the purifier cleansing flame?

Listen Draigo, Im not going to get into a stupid off topic debate with youi, however.
If you have issues with people seeing and pointing flaws in your ideas, maybe think it over first before using it in a discussion thread.

Lastly, remember this IS a discussion thread, dont take it to offense when people disagree with you.

Especially they do it politely
logically
with support ( agree or disagree, atleast its presented before you eyes )

I don't understand how people are so obsessed with comparing points vs points across totally different books or using herohammer as the yardstick by which a books quality is measured.

Also tac squad hate? really? and comparing the melee ability of tac squads vs strike squads?
Tac squads are good because you can take 4 squads of 10 with double melta and a HW in rhinos for like 900 points and you have 4 backfield/midfield objective sitters and 4 suicide melta teams/ speed bumps. And another 8-900 points of fire support from solid elites, fast and heavy slots.

Also power fists are not worth 25 points, there is no situation where it is better to whack away with a pfist vs shoot with your whole army.

Grey knights have some interesting options but they aren't broken and dragiostar isn't anything to write home about.