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ShumaGorath wrote:
I often times like to sculpt full sized human figures our of bronze myself. The stuff in museums is pretty standard faire.

The guy is insisting something of this scope is unproducable by one person. He's incorrect.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:
* Suggested, but ultimately unused, ruleset.

That's my guess, Mr Sartosa.

Dribble Joy wrote:Regarding Apoc. stuff: Could it be that given this is most likely a play test version, they added them so Apoc. could be tested at the same time to see how the rules blend with the standard ones and they may/may not actually see the main rule book but a future Apoc. (re)release?

Is eternal warrior and instant death 1,2,3 tied in to apoc, or is that something new? I assume it is for (1) normal stuff (2) big stuff and (3) titan stuff. It seems they are integrating titans into standard rules, hopefully only in games above 3000 points or so. With expanded force org charts.

Semper wrote:I think it's a fake tbh. Games workshop are pretty off the wall with some things but the day I see them give Mephiston and Ahriman a psychic level of 3 but Eldrad Ulthran only a 2?

Well, considering Mastery level in essence is just how many powers a model can use a turn, this didn't change anything from the current dexes. Especially since they left Eldrad's staff alone.

Aside from that and reading the rules half the codex updates are extremely unthoughtful and missing many details. Half of the Eternal Warriors havn't had their level clarified for example.

Unless noted otherwise, the current Eternal Warrior special rule gives Eternal Warrior (1) in these rules.

CMS's being the standard example in the main rule book? Are they current example? It's been a while since I read the rule book but I don't ever remember the loyalist marines not being the basic examples... anything else would seem un-GW.

Meh...

Shooting AFTER assault?

Meh...

It's fantastically built but ultimately I just think it's a creative fanboy with too much time on their hands. I'll believe it if I see it this summer.

Entirely possible, we'll just have to wait.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
I often times like to sculpt full sized human figures our of bronze myself. The stuff in museums is pretty standard faire.

The guy is insisting something of this scope is unproducable by one person. He's incorrect.

I know, I was simply mocking your inference that you routinely write 160+ page game systems to patch up other systems for the fun of it, that you format it fairly well, and that you use industry professional tools to do so.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I know, I was simply mocking your inference that you routinely write 160+ page game systems to patch up other systems for the fun of it, that you format it fairly well, and that you use industry professional tools to do so.

3 in 34 years isn't very routine. If I had steak for dinner three times in my life, would you say I routinely ate steak?

Kevlar wrote:

Dribble Joy wrote:Regarding Apoc. stuff: Could it be that given this is most likely a play test version, they added them so Apoc. could be tested at the same time to see how the rules blend with the standard ones and they may/may not actually see the main rule book but a future Apoc. (re)release?

Is eternal warrior and instant death 1,2,3 tied in to apoc, or is that something new? I assume it is for (1) normal stuff (2) big stuff and (3) titan stuff. It seems they are integrating titans into standard rules, hopefully only in games above 3000 points or so. With expanded force org charts.

It's new, and to a degree I think there is some consolidation of a few expansions here. The big thing at the moment is there is no allowance in the missons given for anything outside of standard force org that I've seen.

More examples of non-standard missions can be
found in the Narrative games section on page
182. Those pages are a rich repertoire of new
modules that can be used for your own missions.
The section introduces alternative deployment
methods, new mission objectives, plenty of
additional stratagems and mission special rules.

This is where the apocalypse level stuff probably lurks.

Also note that there are 30 more pages missing between the end of the document and the start of the Narrative section.

Semper wrote:I think it's a fake tbh. Games workshop are pretty off the wall with some things but the day I see them give Mephiston and Ahriman a psychic level of 3 but Eldrad Ulthran only a 2?

Aside from that and reading the rules half the codex updates are extremely unthoughtful and missing many details. Half of the Eternal Warriors havn't had their level clarified for example.

CMS's being the standard example in the main rule book? Are they current example? It's been a while since I read the rule book but I don't ever remember the loyalist marines not being the basic examples... anything else would seem un-GW.

Shooting AFTER assault?

It's fantastically built but ultimately I just think it's a creative fanboy with too much time on their hands. I'll believe it if I see it this summer.

They're simply basing the psychic level off of the number of powers you can use every turn (so mephy gets 3 and eldrad gets 2 before his staff bumps him to 3) and not the fluff. The codex updates are stopgap measures that shoehorn in years-old books into a system that is yet to be released.

If eternal warrior doesn't have a classification, it's automatically a (1) as clearly stated in the rule.

Chaos marines (I assume that's what "CMS's" means) have long been rumored to be a part of the upcoming starter set for the same edition. It meshes perfectly with them being one of the standard go-to examples in the rules and lends credence to both rumors.

Shooting after assault is a staple of tons of other game systems and even Rogue Trader charges happened before shooting.

If you apply a bit more common sense and perception to the rules, you'll see that the little indicators actually do point towards it being legitimate. This meshes with alot of the rumors from the past year about both the starter set contents and the rules.. if it's fake, it must be some seriously long term disinformation that's been passed around the some inner gaming circles.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I know, I was simply mocking your inference that you routinely write 160+ page game systems to patch up other systems for the fun of it, that you format it fairly well,

Never fail to respect the lengths bored nerds will go to if driven enough and with enough time on their hands.

and that you use industry professional tools to do so.

you mean widely pirated MS Word/Adobe Acrobat? Such a piece is entirely possible to construct in Word and port to a PDF.

I do agree with Darkness Eternal on the above issue aswell. For a practised writer and skilled word processor (of which there are MANY in this hobby) putting something together like this wouldn't be too much of a stretch even a lone.

Kevlar wrote:Is eternal warrior and instant death 1,2,3 tied in to apoc, or is that something new? I assume it is for (1) normal stuff (2) big stuff and (3) titan stuff.

Generally seems a place holder (there is only two examples of ID(2)) and D weapons (the preserve of super-heavies/Apoc.) is only ID(1).
But who knows.

Vaktathi wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
I know, I was simply mocking your inference that you routinely write 160+ page game systems to patch up other systems for the fun of it, that you format it fairly well,

Never fail to respect the lengths bored nerds will go to if driven enough and with enough time on their hands.

and that you use industry professional tools to do so.

you mean widely pirated MS Word/Adobe Acrobat? Such a piece is entirely possible to construct in Word and port to a PDF.

Could be, but it wasn't.

Vaktathi wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
I know, I was simply mocking your inference that you routinely write 160+ page game systems to patch up other systems for the fun of it, that you format it fairly well,

Never fail to respect the lengths bored nerds will go to if driven enough and with enough time on their hands.

While I actually think the ruleset is legit, I do agree with the last comment. I hear that some of those bored nerds even spend many hours painting up hundreds of toy soldiers!!!

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
I know, I was simply mocking your inference that you routinely write 160+ page game systems to patch up other systems for the fun of it, that you format it fairly well, and that you use industry professional tools to do so.

3 in 34 years isn't very routine. If I had steak for dinner three times in my life, would you say I routinely ate steak?

I would if you said:

I've eaten no fewer than three 30 pound steaks like this single-handedly. One of them makes this look like it's childs cutlet from arbies.

Semper wrote:Meh. , lol. Indeed.. it is all speculation but in regards to the first.. i'd say the language used to describe what's going on implies something more than it's essence. The term 'Mastery Level' is a little misleading and i'm happy to be told otherwise as I genuinely cannot recall but even GW usually seem a little more on the ball then that.

That's essentailly it's purpose already in the GK codex. As stated earlier in the thread. Much of what this document is about is taking all the scattered rules in the dexes that say the same thing but say it 4 different ways, and it puts those rules into one place with common wording that will translate from codex to codex. It provides easier and more consistant standards with which to build new dexes from.

warboss wrote:

Semper wrote:I think it's a fake tbh. Games workshop are pretty off the wall with some things but the day I see them give Mephiston and Ahriman a psychic level of 3 but Eldrad Ulthran only a 2?

Aside from that and reading the rules half the codex updates are extremely unthoughtful and missing many details. Half of the Eternal Warriors havn't had their level clarified for example.

CMS's being the standard example in the main rule book? Are they current example? It's been a while since I read the rule book but I don't ever remember the loyalist marines not being the basic examples... anything else would seem un-GW.

Shooting AFTER assault?

It's fantastically built but ultimately I just think it's a creative fanboy with too much time on their hands. I'll believe it if I see it this summer.

They're simply basing the psychic level off of the number of powers you can use every turn (so mephy gets 3 and eldrad gets 2 before his staff bumps him to 3) and not the fluff. The codex updates are stopgap measures that shoehorn in years-old books into a system that is yet to be released.

If eternal warrior doesn't have a classification, it's automatically a (1) as clearly stated in the rule.

Chaos marines (I assume that's what "CMS's" means) have long been rumored to be a part of the upcoming starter set for the same edition. It meshes perfectly with them being one of the standard go-to examples in the rules and lends credence to both rumors.

Shooting after assault is a staple of tons of other game systems and even Rogue Trader charges happened before shooting.

If you apply a bit more common sense and perception to the rules, you'll see that the little indicators actually do point towards it being legitimate. This meshes with alot of the rumors from the past year about both the starter set contents and the rules.. if it's fake, it must be some seriously long term disinformation that's been passed around the some inner gaming circles.

I have gathered that for the first point upon mastery levels, but as I pointed out to my first contender it's a somewhat misleading object of language that doesn't really stand commercially in my opinion when their fluff belches otherwise at you.

As for the EW point. The implied problem is not the mere fact they havn't clarified it being the actual problem, rather the fact they've not clarified it thus making the point of having a tier system somewhat redundant in the entirety. Yes I have seen similar things but an entire new system made for the benefit of one or two units that have a level 2 or 3 tier? (I am under selling the number, I know).

At the same time with your point in regards to my applications of common sense and perception.. well the same can be said to little indicators pointing out it's false nature. Admittedly I have not thoroughly read the rules, merely skimmed them but your rebuttal is limited in this sense as it's a vice-versa situation whereby I could say any number of similarly subjective things in return, as I have, to highlight (at least for myself) the futility of having faith in this piece of work.

A piece of work like that can take a month or so to produce.. a very dedicated nerd.. such as the fellow who created a scale model of the enterprise on minecraft could do it and WOULD do it fairly willingly i'm sure and nothing included in this that's been a rumour is prior November 2011. On another note.. I may have overlooked them.. but I didn't see anything Necron in the codex updates. Perhaps they don't need it.. perhaps the codex updates were done prior to a necron/document release.

EDIT:
@ Maelstrom88. And? Their desire to correlate the varying terms wasn't the subject of my query. It's the inconsistency in calling it mastery level, pointing out even the best eldar seers couldn't hope to exceed level 5 (the implication of which is they can/have reached 5 and as well all are lead to believe Eldrad is the top dog in that department) then slumping him with a 2 in the codex updates, behind Meth and Ahriman. I'm saying the fluff doesn't match the standards/ratios/thingymabobs of the rules but it does match the name. To me it's like saying you have three cans of blue paint but only two of them have blue and the third is merely green. Perhaps it's a more generalised issue with GW.. but it's one someone would hope corrected in a new rule system....

DarknessEternal wrote:
I've produced no fewer than three projects like this single-handedly.

Content or layout? Or both?

Semper wrote:
I do agree with Darkness Eternal on the above issue aswell. For a practised writer and skilled word processor (of which there are MANY in this hobby) putting something together like this wouldn't be too much of a stretch even a lone.

Barfing out 130 pages of text isn't much of an issue. But designing a coherent game system that is an instant hit on Dakka is another matter. And all for a few lulz? Unlikely. There's also the compliance to many recent rumours. So either the work was done incredibly fast, or it's part of a huge troll campaign spanning years.

lord_blackfang wrote:But designing a coherent game system that is an instant hit on Dakka is another matter.

To be fair, and you called this out yourself, you could basically go through the rumors forum for things that people liked out of various out there rumors and assemble them together to make 'an instant hit'. It's basically design by committee.

I'm not saying it is real or fake, but I'm saying that a savvy person could easily play to the masses with this kind of thing if they knew their audience.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Semper wrote:
I do agree with Darkness Eternal on the above issue aswell. For a practised writer and skilled word processor (of which there are MANY in this hobby) putting something together like this wouldn't be too much of a stretch even a lone.

Barfing out 130 pages of text isn't much of an issue. But designing a coherent game system that is an instant hit on Dakka is another matter. And all for a few lulz? Unlikely. There's also the compliance to many recent rumours. So either the work was done incredibly fast, or it's part of a huge troll campaign spanning years.

This is the crux of it, yes. It's not JUST that is long. It's not JUST that it is laid out like a rulebook. It's not JUST that the rules are really good. It is that it is all of those things and then some.

I have read a LOT of fanmade rules and they don't look like this. It's not just layout. The language and design are nothing like fan-made rules ever are. Let's face it, fanmade rules tend to really stink. Most of the time they have either an amateur feel to them or a wordy powergamer style. This is a balance between those that I've only ever seen an actual professional book do properly.

lord_blackfang wrote:
Barfing out 130 pages of text isn't much of an issue. But designing a coherent game system that is an instant hit on Dakka is another matter. And all for a few lulz? Unlikely. There's also the compliance to many recent rumours. So either the work was done incredibly fast, or it's part of a huge troll campaign spanning years.

I suggest visiting the Proposed Rules forum. There's a new codex every week.

And a great deal of these rules are just a compilation of what people already said they wanted on this very forum.

There's nothing in this document to mark it as real. There's also nothing that marks it as fake. It just is.

pretre wrote:
I'm not saying it is real or fake, but I'm saying that a savvy person could easily play to the masses with this kind of thing if they knew their audience.

They could, yes, but not in the amount of time that they've actually HAD since the rumours first started and STILL have it be coherent and playable.

DarknessEternal wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:
Barfing out 130 pages of text isn't much of an issue. But designing a coherent game system that is an instant hit on Dakka is another matter. And all for a few lulz? Unlikely. There's also the compliance to many recent rumours. So either the work was done incredibly fast, or it's part of a huge troll campaign spanning years.

I suggest visiting the Proposed Rules forum. There's a new codex every week.

And a great deal of these rules are just a compilation of what people already said they wanted on this very forum.

Which were based on the previous sixth edition rumor leak themselves.

If it's a fake I tip my hat to the faker because he even went to the trouble of editing the date it was made (May 17 2011) and having the stats for Necron stuff in it. Would that all trolls and hoaxers do such sterling work.

JoeyFox wrote:This just got posted on /tg/

I'm sorry everyone. I found out about this "6th leak" yesterday while at my FLGS painting, looked at it with astonishment...

The 6th book was written by me and some friends for our FLGS. We wanted to break off and play 40k our way by combining various rule sets and just making life easier on our games. It was once a pile of notes just laying around until one of our players decided to make it "real" - he already apparently made an attempt with an earlier document (as some have noticed.) This time he just took it to far, and my store's group wants to apologize on his behalf.

Feel free to use the rules, we enjoy them very much and they do fix 40k for our personal needs. Yes they are well written - it is far easier to use and explain to new players when it is a formatted document and not piles of hand written text. We simply modified the 5th rules.

You need not believe me if you want to get your hopes up. I simply wish to apologize to those who will for our 'friend' who simply took a job of formatting friendly rules into "real GW rules."

This confession is a troll, and not even a well thought-out troll at that. The quote denies personal responsibility because they are scared of legal department bloodhounds pursuing him as well as hoping that saying "it wasn't me, it was my friend" would shield him from being unable to answer intricate questions without doing the research. I'd bet that the person who posted this confession never even looked at the actual document. This confession is simply lazy, and to be taken no more seriously than any living person claiming to have assassinated a Kennedy.

Semper wrote:I think (I hope) it's a fake tbh. Games workshop are pretty off the wall with some things but the day I see them give Mephiston and Ahriman a psychic level of 3 but Eldrad Ulthran only a 2?

Uh, Mephiston can already use 3 psychic powers per turn.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gram wrote:A project of this magnitude requires a team and a fair amount of work between them, and this being an unfinished product is reflected in the placeholders for various data and imagery.

I've produced no fewer than three projects like this single-handedly. One of them makes this look like it's scribbled in the margins of a notebook.

There's no requirement this be some kind of huge, elaborate, team-based effort. "Production values" is no indicator of fake or real.

"Production values" in this sense should not refer to placeholders for images, but to similarity of writing and work. Now, you have made a claim without much foresight, and I feel the need to call you on it: I would like see your magnum opus that puts this document to shame. I hope it is a project of comparable scope and relevance.

Semper wrote:I do agree with Darkness Eternal on the above issue aswell. For a practised writer and skilled word processor (of which there are MANY in this hobby) putting something together like this wouldn't be too much of a stretch even a lone.

As a practiced writer and skilled and word processor, I feel comfortable in saying that something like this would definitely be a stretch to create alone, as it also requires a near-encyclopaedic knowledge of Warhammer 40k.

Yeah Darkness, I am curious. Show us these works you keep mentioning.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Semper wrote:
I do agree with Darkness Eternal on the above issue aswell. For a practised writer and skilled word processor (of which there are MANY in this hobby) putting something together like this wouldn't be too much of a stretch even a lone.

Barfing out 130 pages of text isn't much of an issue. But designing a coherent game system that is an instant hit on Dakka is another matter. And all for a few lulz? Unlikely. There's also the compliance to many recent rumours. So either the work was done incredibly fast, or it's part of a huge troll campaign spanning years.

Or it's someone insanely clever, lucky and skillful? All discussions of probability aside... there are 7bill people on this planet... im 100% certain there is someone, people in fact out there that can and would and yes... for the lulz and YES... it could well be an instant hit. It could well have been being made for months and adjusted for rumours. I find all to often people think because it's miles beyond themselves then it's next to winning the lotto odds that anyone even remotely linked to them could be within their limits to do something like this. My apologies but it's an ignorant assumption when you've ultimately only got conjecture to go off. Yes it fits in with rumours that are themselves nothing but rumours.

The point of my objections to this work are if summer rolls around and everyone is expecting these to appear in hardback and they don't get it.. there's just going to be another thread with double the winging as everyone complains how let down they are. The ultimate fact being none of you know whether they're real or not.. no matter how good they are or how many signs you see and in the case of GW when it seems too good to be true.. it 99% of the time absolutely is.

I dunno. I've seen an unusually significant increase in the number of natural disasters recently, coinciding with the build up to 2012. Next i'll see a thread with everyone certain it's going to be yet another apocalypse that everyone has rumoured to be coming.

PS. I'm also a sucker for being a devils advocate.

pretre wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:But designing a coherent game system that is an instant hit on Dakka is another matter.

To be fair, and you called this out yourself, you could basically go through the rumors forum for things that people liked out of various out there rumors and assemble them together to make 'an instant hit'. It's basically design by committee.

I'm not saying it is real or fake, but I'm saying that a savvy person could easily play to the masses with this kind of thing if they knew their audience.

You make it sound like a guy could just copy/paste all the various rumours from the past year together and instantly get a 130 page document that had any internal logic. This thing took hundreds of man-hours and if it was made from existing internet rumours, it had to be done in a matter of months. So we're looking at a guy with no job, no life, but with a great grasp of theatrics, game design, and geek psychology.

Are you seriously thinking that you could write, design and then create a pdf by copying rumors? This isn't some kitbash of internet posts..

My gut says it would take a single person around a year to craft this.. The real book is coming out in 5 months anyway so its even a larger waste of time

Come on..