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2017/08/31 22:02:49
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
So...we have Zone Mortalis themed 2D board tiles, and plastic Zone Mortalis themed bases in 25mm and 32mm...do you think we will eventually see some plastic Zone Mortalis terrain?
edit: too many 'eventually's
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/31 22:08:11
Azreal13 wrote: If you're not British that joke will take too much explaining to be worth the effort.
Suffice to say the mockney accent is approaching van Dykian levels of bad.
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The Auld Grump - now trying to picture an Underhive commercial... in rhyming slang....
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2017/08/31 22:21:03
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
Yodhrin wrote: 3D card terrain is awful. It is just is - it looks bad, it's too light, it falls apart too easily unless you glue it all together in which case one of its big supposed advantages(modularity & easy storage) goes away, it gets damaged easily and is almost impossible to repair.
I have 5 sets of Necromunda terrain. All but my first set is in perfect condition.
"Looks bad" - Based on what measure?
"Too light" - Based on what measure?
"Falls apart too easily" - I've never had it randomly fall apart on me. Not even once. The plastic bulkheads go a long way to stopping that exact issue.
"Easily damaged" - Only if (mis)used without any care.
It is very hard to repair, if not impossible, but I've never really run into that problem.
For terrain, I am still planning to print up a whole bunch of the old World Works PDF Platform Command stuff - inexpensive, modular, and I can print up as much as I want -
Not perfect, but it will do the job, and I already have those PDFs.
For a sewer fight, maybe some Gothic Realms.
Again, not perfect, but cheap to make, and I already have the PDFs. (I used the sewers a lot for Mordheim, back in the day - the terrain looks nicer through rose tinted memory spectacles. )
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2017/08/31 22:39:10
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
I've played a fair few games of ClassicNecro on Zone (Dome?) Mortalis tables and found that the old system was just as playable planar as it was in more Vertical set ups without any modification. So from that perspective the tiled stuff is doable for me, until I can make something more DIY. I'm sure as hell not spending hundreds on FW's albeit very nice boards.
No smaller Juve minis make sense I suppose. I'll miss those skinny runts but I can't think of a compelling reason for seperate models in a game where you run a Roster anyway. It would just double up the number of components to design.
I'm in for 2 copies.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2017/08/31 23:10:32
Subject: Re:Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
TheAuldGrump wrote: For terrain, I am still planning to print up a whole bunch of the old World Works PDF Platform Command stuff - inexpensive, modular, and I can print up as much as I want -
If you can steal ink at work, sure. If you have to pay for it, you might as well be buying resin.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2017/08/31 23:28:02
Subject: Re:Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
TheAuldGrump wrote: For terrain, I am still planning to print up a whole bunch of the old World Works PDF Platform Command stuff - inexpensive, modular, and I can print up as much as I want -
If you can steal ink at work, sure. If you have to pay for it, you might as well be buying resin.
Or, you know, use a laser printer. (Cost per page - around ten cents.) I own two of these, both Samsungs, both bought on sale, both used for a lot more than just making terrain.
Or an Epson with continuous ink supply system. (Cost per page - around five cents.) I lust after one of these - the ink is cheap, but the printer is expensive. There are other companies that make CIS systems for other brands - but Epson makes them for their own printers. Tax return gooing for this, I think....
Or an old Kodak printer. (Cost per page - around fifteen cents.) Getting harder to find and feed.
Believe it or not, there are cheap ways to print in color - not everybody uses a Lexmark. (More than fifty cents per page.)
The Auld Grump - have I mentioned that I really want a CIS system?
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2017/09/01 00:54:01
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
Yodhrin wrote: 3D card terrain is awful. It is just is - it looks bad, it's too light, it falls apart too easily unless you glue it all together in which case one of its big supposed advantages(modularity & easy storage) goes away, it gets damaged easily and is almost impossible to repair.
I have 5 sets of Necromunda terrain. All but my first set is in perfect condition.
"Looks bad" - Based on what measure?
"Too light" - Based on what measure?
"Falls apart too easily" - I've never had it randomly fall apart on me. Not even once. The plastic bulkheads go a long way to stopping that exact issue.
"Easily damaged" - Only if (mis)used without any care.
It is very hard to repair, if not impossible, but I've never really run into that problem.
I remember our set putting up with a hell of a lot of gaming without complaint. Shame GW didn't want to resurrect that type of terrain system, it was great.
2017/09/01 01:13:14
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
Yodhrin wrote: 3D card terrain is awful. It is just is - it looks bad, it's too light, it falls apart too easily unless you glue it all together in which case one of its big supposed advantages(modularity & easy storage) goes away, it gets damaged easily and is almost impossible to repair.
I have 5 sets of Necromunda terrain. All but my first set is in perfect condition.
"Looks bad" - Based on what measure?
"Too light" - Based on what measure?
"Falls apart too easily" - I've never had it randomly fall apart on me. Not even once. The plastic bulkheads go a long way to stopping that exact issue.
"Easily damaged" - Only if (mis)used without any care.
It is very hard to repair, if not impossible, but I've never really run into that problem.
Yeah, mine has been assembled and disassembled, and thrown in a box between games, more times than I can count, and aside from some delamination on the corners here and there where the bulkheads clip on, it's all held up pretty well.
3d Card terrain certainly doesn't look as good as good 3d plastic terrain or scratchbuilt terrain can... but it does look a darn sight better than a printed mat with some doors sitting on it.
2017/09/01 01:28:17
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
The up side to the disappointing 2D tiles is that the dice/tiles/rules will be super cheap on EBay within a month or so for the people like me who have a ton of Necromunda already and don't much care for the aesthetics of the Goliaths or Eschers.
And yeah, the fragility of the card terrain is vastly overstated, unless you have problems with spilling, or jamming things together like a toddler. In which case I recommend a sippy cup and some discipline, not a condemnation of card terrain.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
I agree on the durability of card terrain. After having backed 2 battlesystems card terrain kickstarters.. yeah.. it's more durable than people understand. As a point of fact.. I also own card terrain from Gorkamorka and 2nd Ed. AND IT IS STILL PLAYABLE. I would wager that some of it is older than a lot of the current crop of gamers
IF you don't care for the boxed set but want Necromunda.. Buy the tile-free book separately and pick up models. Andy as Heresy has a wonderful not-Delaque gang.. and from his social media he is in need of the business. Mad Robot makes and is making more stand ins for a lot of gangs as well. Anvil Industries and Raging Heroes have some offerings to boot. Basically, you can find the gangs in modern/updated sculpts. What you might have a hard time with is the whole unit card thing and propietary dice.. but I'm sure discerning gamers can work out how to come across those items.
I'm another one with 3 sets of card terrain still going strong.
Of course GW were never going to release new 3d card terrain when they already have lots of plastic kits that they make in-house. Why compete against yourself?
The recent glut of SWA terrain sales could also have made an impact on thinking as well as the corresponding increase in Price for the box. Fingers crossed for an Imperial Sector type box of the Sector Mechanicus stuff for me.
The doors similarity to the old bulkheads looks like a nice touch though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MLaw wrote:it's more durable than people understand. As a point of fact.. I also own card terrain from Gorkamorka and 2nd Ed. AND IT IS STILL PLAYABLE.
My only bugbear with it is it's only 3" or so high levels which my now much larger adult hands can't squeeze under to move models about. Of course that where whippy sticks come into their own!
No such problem with Sector Mechanicus at 5" or so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/01 06:31:52
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2017/09/01 06:48:52
Subject: Re:Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
Yodhrin wrote: 3D card terrain is awful. It is just is - it looks bad, it's too light, it falls apart too easily unless you glue it all together in which case one of its big supposed advantages(modularity & easy storage) goes away, it gets damaged easily and is almost impossible to repair.
I have 5 sets of Necromunda terrain. All but my first set is in perfect condition.
"Looks bad" - Based on what measure?
Any sane one? You can *just about* get away with "printed" detailing on a 2D surface where it amounts to a floor map, but once you start trying to put together 3D shapes using flat 2D planes with printed details, it looks like arse - like those older 3D computer games where everything was constructed from basic geometric shapes and all the "3D detail" came from textures and specular maps, even if you update them with modern super-duper high res textures they still end up looking rubbish. Twenty years ago you could get away with it because the alternative was usually either a sheet of green felt over piles of books or some bodged-together monstrosity made of eggboxes, straws, and bog roll tubes, but these days when there's high detail 3D plastic terrain right there on the shelf and anyone can find all the tricks to making decent looking scratch terrain online card terrain doesn't measure up.
"Too light" - Based on what measure?
Again, any sane one. I can't even count how many times I had to glue metal models back together after they took a dive to the floor as a result of someone accidentally brushing a corner of a structure made of the Necromunda or Mordheim card terrain; hell, one time it was just a breezy day and someone opened the door of the GW to come in - took out half a table. It's card ffs, you're going to argue card isn't light?
"Falls apart too easily" - I've never had it randomly fall apart on me. Not even once. The plastic bulkheads go a long way to stopping that exact issue.
That's nice for you. After I'd used mine for a couple of years the edges where the bulkheads gripped them were so worn the only way to make them even semi-functional was to lather the whole thing in superglue and leave it assembled forever.
"Easily damaged" - Only if (mis)used without any care.
It is very hard to repair, if not impossible, but I've never really run into that problem.
Aye OK sure, card is super-duper resilient after all, it's not like the material's Kryptonite is a mildly humid day or anything...
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
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2017/09/01 08:09:24
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
- "The gameplay we got to experience in the demo was a quick and dirty 4 on 4 (four players with two models each). The game is fast, but VERY crunchy! Lots of special weapons that have to be carefully considered when you choose to use them.
The models we used were the gang leader/named character models from the cards included in the game, but you can also create your own, and there are blank cards you can write on in the box, which can wipe off to make changes or add things to.
There’s a few different dice, a regular d6, with a “Skreagle” as Adam called it (a skull/eagle), scatter dice for grenades (and grenades cause knockback, which can throw people off of walkways!), injury dice (used for determining how badly you wounded a model, and also rolled when you’re attempting to stand back up after taking a flesh wound), and the ammo dice.
The ammo dice involved a really cool mechanic. Firstly, assault weapons roll to see how many wounds are caused, and weapons that are rare and run out of ammo due to your roll have a 6+ reload roll in the next turn. So if your bolter runs out of ammo, you may be out of luck. Makes your weapon choices very tactical as well."
Everything seemed geared towards tactics — you trade activations per model, so you can fake out your opponent by moving in a way that causes them to expose themselves to an attack by another model. That mechanic also makes multiplayer games way faster and more fun, since everyone is constantly taking turns.
There are also cards which give you the ability to react to an event. We saw one which allowed the Goliath gang to charge and do more damage, one called Last Gasp that gave you a last retaliatory shot against an enemy who just killed you, and one called Blood Debt that gives your gang +1 on attacks against an enemy model who killed one of your gangers.
Bottling was interesting. There’s the possibility of both teams bottling out. Downed models give bottling a negative modifier, as your gang is more likely to run away as their buddies lie dying on the floor.
Being in base to base contact with a downed model allows you to make a coup de grace and kill them.
There were a large number of modifiers, so you really had to consider exactly what advantages and disadvantages you were giving yourself based on what you did.
Adam talked about how the Studio campaign is mapping the Hive for their game. As the gangs take territory, they keep a record of the way the tiles were laid out, and then reuse those maps to fight over existing turf, which sounds very cool.
I'm personally thrilled about the blank cards you can write your own gangers on.
*EDIT*
Missed some bits in the comments section -
"Tiles that match the Zone Mortalis tiles from Forgeworld come in the box. There’s no grid based movement or shooting, that’s all in inches. The boxed set focuses on tunnel fighting in the Underhive, the first expansion is Gang War, and is releasing at the same time, goes upwards and includes more about fighting and moving through vertical space.
I asked Adam if that meant that if we were seeing an expansion that moved upwards into the higher levels of the Hive, did that mean we might see something that moved outwards, into the Ash Wastes. He gave the typical “anything is possible” kind of answer, but it seems that they’re focused on each expansion also expanding the environments you fight over."
In response to a comment about the tiles:
"Yeah, the tiles are just there to be a quick and easy play surface, with some interesting gameplay possibilities. I saw a tile with a bridge over a pit, one that was swamped with toxic green goo, etc. they were all double sided.
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
2017/09/01 08:27:05
Subject: Re:Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
Cardboard terrain is fine. The plastic bulkheads add the necessary weight to make it stable. Given the option I would actually take the card stuff over plastic as I like the original aesthetic. This box shouldn't be considered a starter set, because it doesn't facilitate playing the game in full. It appears that on top of the substantial cost of sourcing my own terrain I will now have to purchase a release day supplement to use 3D rules. Pass.
2017/09/01 09:05:45
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
It was that cardboard tower that did my head in (you know the one - two levels with the little tower that slid into the middle). Where the bulkheads slotted in to the first level, there was only a thin bit of card connected to the rest of it - I've seen more than a few that came apart at that join. Oh, and the lift bit from Outlanders would wear away as you had to constantly move it up and down. Other than that, it was fine.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 09:33:19
Chikout wrote: A very important detail that I have not seen posted. The rules for using regular terrain will be in a separate book. Not sure if this contains the full rules for the game or not.
If it does and you already have terrain and gangs you could just buy the book and start playing. This was the case with bloodbowl so hopefully it will be the same this time.
This info comes from warhammer weekly on YouTube.
They said the book will come out the same day as the boxed game.
you missed this one
Thanks, I missed it indeed, good to know, but I was responding to the 'moneygrab', 'no campaign', 'lite rulebook' comments. As the FB post shows this is not the case. That their is going to be an expansion called Gang War does not mean you have two main rulebooks. Or two rulesets - one with square-based movement, the other with a tape measure etc - which is not the case
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 09:26:06
2017/09/01 09:37:39
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
zedmeister wrote: It was that cardboard tower that did my head in (you know the one - two levels with the little tower that slid into the middle). Where the bulkheads slotted in to the first level, there was only a thin bit of card connected to the rest of it - I've seen more than a few that came apart at that join. Oh, and the lift bit from Outlanders would wear away as you had to constantly move it up and down. Other than that, it was fine.
Those were the worst offenders (although no-one I knew bothered with the lift rues because moving it was too footery), but all the card parts got worn and damaged because we always had to dismantle them to pack them away.
Mind you, the problem wasn't the quality of the card terrain; it was the quantity - the contents of the Necromunda box (and even when combined with Outlanders) was about half of what you needed for a minimum 4' x 4' setup.
2017/09/01 09:45:22
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
Yeah, definitely a problem with the old set. I used to just crowd what terrain we had in the middle into a roughly 2x2 area - we started close and by God, the fights were vicious. Lot of flamer use during those times
2017/09/01 09:56:05
Subject: Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
Yea, that's what we used to do, but even then, what I remember happening was lots of models clustering round the bulkheads of the structures, and as soon as someone moved onto a walkway, they got blasted because they had to cross 6" or more of open ground.
2017/09/01 10:00:02
Subject: Re:Necromunda Underhive, new info & video released 8/30
)
...it's good to be green! 