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Knockagh wrote: That’s completely contradictory. Germany has nearly 1/4 of the entire EU GDP. By your logic no small nation could co exist within a union with a larger country.
In truth it looks very much like, “I hate the English and don’t want to be in a union with them as the largest partner because I don’t trust them or like them.” Plain and simple bigotry against the English, it’s the sole defining tennant of Irish nationalism.
Oh bog off, that's what your sort say about any nationalism, of any form, in any country. It's what was said about all the nationalisms that drove decolonialisation. No self-examination or self-reflection, no acknowledgement Ol' Blighty could bear any responsibility, just ungrateful natives and bigots and idiots, because there's no other possible way anyone could disagree with unionism
Germany's comparative economic strength makes their influence over the EU disproportionate, but it is not absolute in the way that England's is over the UK. In the EU smaller nations can exert collective opposition with a meaningful impact, they can form blocs that actually out-vote the "big power" countries, they can play the bigger countries off against each other because while Germany's GDP's advantage is substantial other countries have other strengths that let them throw their weight around on other large issues.
By contrast, every single eligible voter in every single constituency in Scotland, Wales, and NI could come together and vote for the We Don't Want Policy X party, and those votes would mean nothing if a sufficient majority of English seats went to the Policy X Is Brilliant party. Every single eligible voter in Scotland, Wales, and NI could vote for Choice A on a referendum ballot, but if 65% of English voters go for Choice B, we all get Choice B. All three devolved governments can come together and push as hard as they like, they have no actual mechanic for influencing the direction of UK policy in reserved areas, and they exist on the sufferance of the UK parliament which can abolish them at any time with a simple majority because we have no written constitution in which to enshrine their status and no piece of legislation by any government can bind its successors.
The UK exists because the monarchies of their days conquered Wales and made the Scots and the Irish offers they weren't allowed to refuse, and it survived as an institution because it proceeded to buccaneer around the world plundering the wealth of any country they could find, which monarchs and governments of those days were competent enough to ensure benefited all the "important" people; first the landed gentry, then the merchant class, and eventually after much struggle the working class. But the Empire is gone and has been for a long time, and more recent political decisions have made it absolutely clear what parts of the country are considered truly vital, which people the governments of modernity consider important, and it's not us out on "the periphery".
Now sure, that includes a lot of places in England as well as far as the folk in charge are concerned, but the fact is the UK doesn't change unless England wants it to change, and the parts of England that our lords & masters keep gaking on haven't seemed particularly interested in changing anything in a long time, until the completely misdirected broadside at the EU in the referendum. There are many reasons why, but in the end none of them matter in this discussion because the smaller nations can't change any of them or even meaningfully influence them. The UK isn't beyond saving in an absolute sense, there are countless reforms that could make it a modern, more democratic, more responsive entity actually capable of containing the various nations and regions without the constant stream of stolen wealth from an Empire to essentially bribe folk to ignore their grievances, but England doesn't want them. You(used in a collective, nonspecific way) don't want your own parliament, your regions don't want their own parliaments, you don't want to abolish the Lords and replace it with a senate of nations & regions, you don't want proportional representation for Westminster elections; England is happy with the UK as it is, in a structural sense, and many in Wales and Scotland certainly are not, but because of the UK's structure our unhappiness means nothing. When that goes on for long enough, of course people start to think that the only way to attain meaningful change is to get out - that's the sentiment which drove a lot of people towards Brexit, the difference being the EU's supposed monolithic bureaucracy and condescending inflexibility were largely a fiction conjured up by the Euroskeptic segments of the media, while the power differentials between England and the other nations of the UK are eminently real and demonstrable.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
One of the main things that have really bugged me since the vote has been the attitude of the EU. I’ve never heard of an organisation that you join that make it virtually impossible for you to leave. That smacks of bullying and it’s repugnant. There has been an almost perfect storm for Brexit globally and it’s definitely a fine old mess, one I can’t see a work around for in the short term. Which is why I would give May my backing. Not because I like her policies but purely because she is our best option at the minute. One thing about being an Irish unionist though it gives you a healthy long term perspective on political history. Everything sorts itself out in time but it’s going to be an unholy scrap over the next few years. I don’t think many in the current generation have a corporate national identity, particularly in GB. The idea of sacrificing for future generations doesn’t exist. People want it all and they want it now so it will be difficult to cobble together a compromise between the factions. But I think it will work out in the long term.
Only thing impossible is getting benefits of eu without playing by eu rules. That's the part uk leaders are too stupid to understand so they assume uk can get all the benefits for free because...ummm...reasons? Do they believe uk is chosen people entitled for everything?
Uk wants to leave then leave. Just leave the benefits as well as rules. If it wrecks your country well that was your choice.
I mean impossible to leave? Notify you leave, wait 2 years, you are out of eu. Impossible indeed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/13 23:28:26
Knockage-wise words, much more then I have come to expect from you, if you don't mind me saying. But Yodhrin has hit the nail on the head.
Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an!
The UK should be prepared to relax EU rules on food standards and chemical safety as part of a new trading relationship with India, according to an unreleased report by the British and Indian governments.
The official joint trade review – obtained by Unearthed despite the UK government’s refusal to release it – spotlights a range of non-tariff barriers to trade identified by Indian businesses, including limits on fungicides in basmati rice, the enforcement of food hygiene standards for milk and dairy products such as paneer and the use of hormone-disrupting chemicals across a range of non-food products.
The list – drafted by the Indian ministry of commerce – stops short of demanding the rules be removed after Brexit, instead suggesting flexibility in how and when they are applied to meet the needs of exporters.
The review, which also focused on life sciences and information technology, was described by the British government as a key text for the new UK-India trade partnership announced in April at the Commonwealth summit.
Speaking at the event, international trade secretary Liam Fox claimed that “removing barriers to trade is a key way the UK can capitalise on the predicted growth in world markets”. He repeated the claim when speaking in India last month.
Despite numerous public references to the review by Fox, the British government refused to provide the document following an Unearthed freedom of information request.
The Indian government, however, complied with a parallel right to information request.
A spokesperson for British department of international trade said: “As we leave the EU, we will forge new and ambitious trade links around the world, while also maintaining our high standards on animal welfare and food safety.
“The joint trade review’s findings underline the continued strength of the bilateral relationship between the UK and India, and we are committed to driving forward this mutually beneficial trading arrangement. This includes in the food and drink sector where we are working together on a sector-based roadmap to reduce trade barriers.”
The Indian government failed to respond to request for comment
White paper
The UK would be unable to address India’s key complaints in the trade review under the terms of its proposed Brexit white paper, experts have told Unearthed.
“Theresa May’s Chequers’ proposal would prevent the UK from making concessions to India in all areas related to plant and animal health, as it would continue to be bound to the application of the EU’s regime,” according to Sam Lowe, trade analyst for the Centre for European Reform.
“The UK would not be able to take a different approach on REACH [Europe’s chemical regulation regime] or on endocrine disrupting chemicals. It would still be required to perform physical inspections on 50% of imported Indian shrimp.”
The first part of the 52-page review is effectively a statistics-driven overview of the countries’ current and potential trading relationship, but the second section lists ‘issues faced’ by British and Indian businesses in their ‘sectors of interest.’
The UK is not allowed to begin negotiating trade agreements with countries until it has formally left the EU in 2019, and the language of the report is not explicit about a post-Brexit agreement nor about the EU laws the UK could cease to follow.
The report’s conclusion notes “the UK’s existing framework as an EU member state means that many issues remains within EU competence” but it devotes pages upon pages to complaints concerning trade barriers that stem from European law.
The final recommendations are far from concrete, and instead amount to repeated suggestions to increased dialogue on how the issues can be addressed.
Out of REACH
According to the chapter on non-tariff trade barriers written by Indian policymakers, the main issues concern the EU’s limits on the trace amounts of pesticides in food products, its restrictions on hormone-disrupting chemicals, and the burden of its complex REACH chemical regulations.
The EU’s limits on the amount of chemical residue found in food products is clearly a source of aggravation to Indian businesses, who describe complications complying with rules on a range of exports:
Trace amounts of of fungicide in basmati rice
Growth retarding chemicals in grapes
Aflatoxins in chillies and spices
Antibiotics in fish products
Food hygiene standards at processing plants involved in milk products such as paneer
Another key complaint relates to the EU’s attempts to regulate hormone-altering chemicals known as endocrine disruptors in non-food products such as toys, with 34 of the 69 products impacted said to have a direct effect on India.
And then there’s REACH, the EU’s vast and complex regulatory regime for chemicals, that India has frequently challenged at the World Trade Organisation.
The report states that: “Indian exporters experience various difficulties in complying with REACH” and then goes on to list its long-held bugbears.
Michael Warhurst, executive director at the ChemTrust, told Unearthed: “The difficulty that Indian exporters face in complying with EU rules on imported products should not be grounds for the UK to reduce standards of protection of human health and the environment.”
The report cites an assortment of other complaints with a range of EU rules, such as lead limits in jewellery.
Political turmoil
The release of the report comes at a pivotal moment in the UK’s separation from the European Union, as the British government officialises the type of Brexit it will pursue in its long-awaited white paper.
The current proposal, which would see alignment with EU standards on goods and agri-food but not services, has triggered an uproar from the pro-Brexit press and key figures, leading to the resignation of David Davis and Boris Johnson and several less-known ministers.
But other key ministers – including Fox – remain in place, with the UK still nominally committed to a policy of signing trade deals with countries around the world.
The report will lead to an increased focus on how much flexibility the UK will now have to meet demands from India and other nations regarding chemical and food import standards.
..not really sure that people voted for, er, lower hygiene standards at processing plants involved in milk products TBH.
Spoiler:
..one is red and easily walked all over, whilst the carpet is etc etc etc
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
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"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Good news for farmers across the board. The British public won’t tolerate a lowering of animal welfare or hygiene practices and no government would dare sign up to any such deal.
I see the unelected bell end that is Junker has made a fool out of himself again walking around plastered at the NATO summit.
This guy makes Trump look professional. He is laughing at us all. Apparently he had a ‘sore back’. My mum had a cousin like that.....
I see the unelected bell end that is Junker has made a fool out of himself again walking around plastered at the NATO summit.
This guy makes Trump look professional. He is laughing at us all. Apparently he had a ‘sore back’. My mum had a cousin like that.....
Alcoholism isn't a laughing matter, if the guy has a problem. Though he still made less of a fool of himself than Trump, and still seems to be besting May.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/14 08:26:47
I see the unelected bell end that is Junker has made a fool out of himself again walking around plastered at the NATO summit.
This guy makes Trump look professional. He is laughing at us all. Apparently he had a ‘sore back’. My mum had a cousin like that.....
Alcoholism isn't a laughing matter, if the guy has a problem. Though he still made less of a fool of himself than Trump, and still seems to be besting May.
Certainly isn’t a laughing matter when your in a position of responsibility like he is. The EU is an utter disgrace for keeping this man in control. If he isn’t the laughing stock the the EU themselves are. I haven’t heard anyone say he is an alcoholic, it looks more like he is just a prat who drinks because no one holds him to account. Trump might be a nightmare but at least he doesn’t disgrace himself by turning up intoxicated to formal state events time and again.
The UK exists because the monarchies of their days conquered Wales and made the Scots and the Irish offers they weren't allowed to refuse, and it survived as an institution because it proceeded to buccaneer around the world plundering the wealth of any country they could find, which monarchs and governments of those days were competent enough to ensure benefited all the "important" people; first the landed gentry, then the merchant class, and eventually after much struggle the working class. But the Empire is gone and has been for a long time, and more recent political decisions have made it absolutely clear what parts of the country are considered truly vital, which people the governments of modernity consider important, and it's not us out on "the periphery".
Do you mean when King James of Scotland took the throne after Elizabeth's death and basically moved down South because it was more fun, he could collect some decent taxes and unlike at home was not likely to get a knife in the back (or front). I think you will find that much of the reality of uniting the two nations came from his reign.
History is not as black and white as people sometime make out and there are a lot of distortions around the relationships between the "home nations".
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Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
You might not like May or think she is particularly good at her job but she is at least trying and not staggering about drunk on the job. Again Trump might be a misogynistic prat but at least he isn’t laughing in your face as he parties round the world stage. Junker is a symbol of everything that’s wrong in the EU trading block. He is arrogant, condescending and treats his position as a right not a privilege.
The UK exists because the monarchies of their days conquered Wales and made the Scots and the Irish offers they weren't allowed to refuse, and it survived as an institution because it proceeded to buccaneer around the world plundering the wealth of any country they could find, which monarchs and governments of those days were competent enough to ensure benefited all the "important" people; first the landed gentry, then the merchant class, and eventually after much struggle the working class. But the Empire is gone and has been for a long time, and more recent political decisions have made it absolutely clear what parts of the country are considered truly vital, which people the governments of modernity consider important, and it's not us out on "the periphery".
Do you mean when King James of Scotland took the throne after Elizabeth's death and basically moved down South because it was more fun, he could collect some decent taxes and unlike at home was not likely to get a knife in the back (or front). I think you will find that much of the reality of uniting the two nations came from his reign.
History is not as black and white as people sometime make out and there are a lot of distortions around the relationships between the "home nations".
Absolutely. One of te tragedies of nationalism is it demands absolute truths from history. Unions allow for the complexity of political and cultural history.
Nothing is ever as straight forward as it seems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/14 09:30:51
I see the unelected bell end that is Junker has made a fool out of himself again walking around plastered at the NATO summit.
This guy makes Trump look professional. He is laughing at us all. Apparently he had a ‘sore back’. My mum had a cousin like that.....
Laughing at other people's sickness. Good job.... It is reported he has Sciatica. Now having a parent that also suffers from this I can definitely relate to the pain and weakness this causes. This is not just a 'sore back'
Sciatica is a medical condition characterized by pain going down the leg from the lower back. This pain may go down the back, outside, or front of the leg.[3] Onset is often sudden following activities like heavy lifting, though gradual onset may also occur. Typically, symptoms are only on one side of the body. Certain causes, however, may result in pain on both sides. Lower back pain is sometimes but not always present. Weakness or numbness may occur in various parts of the affected leg and foot.
Hopefully, you get the opportunity to experience the pleasure of it once (and just once because that is all you will need) so that you can actually understand what you are laughing at.
Still you have a highlighted a good point about the EU. Looking at how EU allies and other leaders supported him whilst going through that pain. Trump instead prefers to try and trip up old ladies and being completely oblivious to the rest of the world; someone that is meant to be his allies. I think I know which side I would prefer. One side cares about others, the other only cares about himself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/14 09:43:00
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
So today in Glasgow's political marching season, we have pride. Nicola Sturgeon is leading the parade. I presume the other party leaders, 75% of which are gay/bi, will be prominent, too. Great vibe already. Lots of crossover with the Trump protest yesterday, as you’d expect. Don’t suspect there’ll be much crossover with the other brightly coloured march from last week, if they’ve even made it back from their midweek jaunt to Belfast.
I’ve said before thay I have no allegiance to any political boundary, and I’m not proud of being Scottish, but I do like living somewhere that embraces these things so enthusiastically.
I think by this point the bar has pretty much fallen on the ground.
@ Knockagh
It’s not exactly a glowing endorsement when the best thing anyone can say about her is “at least she turns up to work sober”.
Don’t get me wrong though. I utterly dispise Juncker, and the rest of them. Arrogant condescending pricks. It’s just a shame we have a remainer prime minister who’s taking their gak.
I have Sciatica. I’m a farmer and got diagnosed with it two years ago. I lie flat on the floor when it strikes bad and eat co codamol. I have a chronic version of it. If I sit for any length of time at all I feel it. I feel the nerve right now.
I have never got on like that ever. I know someone who is drunk and he is drunk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ future war cultist, yes your right not turning up sober is a poor endorsement but I still think she’s the best of a bad lot at the moment. And unlike many of the political class at present she is trying to find compromise. We might not like it, but that is what compromise involves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ future war cultist, yes your right not turning up sober is a poor endorsement but I still think she’s the best of a bad lot at the moment. And unlike many of the political class at present she is trying to find compromise. We might not like it, but that is what compromise involves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/14 11:11:11
Drunk or sciatica, I dunno. It is well known that Juncker is a drunk anyhow. He was a terrible candidate for President. He was selected by the European People's Party (EPP) which is the main conservative Christian Democrat grouping in the EU Parliament. The CDU, Fine Gael, les Republicans, all the rest of the centre right are in there. Unfortunately, David Cameron took the Tories out of the EPP and into the European Conservatives and Reformists group, which is a fringe group made up of populist cranks, the biggest other party is PiS from Poland. This dramatically reduced the UK's sway in the EU Parliament, and was a classic case of UK politicians dicking around in Europe to appease the eurosceptic headbangers at home. It didn't work of course because eurosceptics are unappeasable.
The the upshot of that was that the UK had no say in the selection of Junker. This makes sense: if a bunch of Tories defected to UKIP (a pretty fair analogy here) their votes no longer count when selecting a candidate for Prime Minister if the Tories win a majority. If the ECR had won the most candidates, the UK would have been in a great position to select the president, but the ECR are a fringe group.
Of course, by pulling the conservatives out, Cameron also soured relations with the various EPP leaders, as he weakened their majority substantially, what with the UK having many MEPs, and many Conservative MEPs. (As an aside: When Cameron later went to negotiate his special new deal to keep the UK in the EU, he was negotiating with many of these same EPP leaders, who held him in contempt and considered him an unserious politician due to his behaviour). This gave the Socialists a real fighting chance to get their candidate for President through, which I would have much preferred to Juncker. But when you lose an election, you do not get your candidate as President, or Prime Minister as the case may be. This is why I find it so funny that people say Juncker is unelected- he is chosen as candidate by the democratically elected EPP delegates because they won the most votes (unfortunately!). The UK had a chance to have a say in this but pissed it away.
If you are reading this and did not know any of this, then it just goes to show the absolute paucity of coverage of EU affairs in the UK. It is really bad. In the Irish papers the EU Parliament groups do not come up often, but they do get mentioned in issues relating to Europe, whereas in the UK most people have no idea about this stuff and do not take EU parliament elections seriously, only to cry like babies when someone they don't like gets chosen after they have given up their ability to influence the process.
When I say it like that, this was really a pre-run for Brexit, wasn't it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/14 11:49:50
If the EU tried to make at least a display of democracy the president would be elected by the people of the member states. It not only would increase accountability for the post it would also help massively with citizens sense of involvement in the trading block. The EU self imposed isolation from its citizens is one of the biggest causes of popular resentment against the EU.
Why is the Prime Minister of the UK not directly elected? Is the UK not democratic?
Why does the UK not have a directly elected head of state? Is it because the UK is not a "real democracy"?
Why does the UK have a completely unelected second house of government?
Honestly Knockagh. It is like you did not even read my post. The EU should engage in more outreach, for sure. Make itself even more democratic, no problem. But a direct vote is not a smart idea in a continent as diverse as Europe. The current system is not perfect but it is democratic.
And citizens of the EU have a responsibility to be engaged and to pay attention to what is happening.
Da Boss wrote: Why is the Prime Minister of the UK not directly elected? Is the UK not democratic?
Why does the UK not have a directly elected head of state? Is it because the UK is not a "real democracy"?
Why does the UK have a completely unelected second house of government?.
I think the flow chart on how different EU bodies are elected has been posted a dozen times already in this thread.
Thing is though, when our PMs feth up they do pay for it at the ballot box. John Major, Gordon Brown, even May got a slap during her GE for being stupid. The same can’t be said for the President Of The Commission. Think Juncker and his crowd will be held accountable for everything during his term?
Future War Cultist wrote: Thing is though, when our PMs feth up they do pay for it at the ballot box. John Major, Gordon Brown, even May got a slap during her GE for being stupid. The same can’t be said for the President Of The Commission. Think Juncker and his crowd will be held accountable for everything during his term?
For what should he be held accountable for?
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Future War Cultist wrote: Thing is though, when our PMs feth up they do pay for it at the ballot box. John Major, Gordon Brown, even May got a slap during her GE for being stupid. The same can’t be said for the President Of The Commission. Think Juncker and his crowd will be held accountable for everything during his term?
Possibly by the people who take voting for MEP's seriously. In the same way you outlined above.
Future War Cultist wrote: Thing is though, when our PMs feth up they do pay for it at the ballot box. John Major, Gordon Brown, even May got a slap during her GE for being stupid. The same can’t be said for the President Of The Commission. Think Juncker and his crowd will be held accountable for everything during his term?
For what should he be held accountable for?
Eurozone crisis, immigration crisis, one of its members leaving. Heads of government always get it in the neck for everything that goes wrong, except for the heads of the eu for some reason.
Future War Cultist wrote: Thing is though, when our PMs feth up they do pay for it at the ballot box. John Major, Gordon Brown, even May got a slap during her GE for being stupid. The same can’t be said for the President Of The Commission. Think Juncker and his crowd will be held accountable for everything during his term?
For what should he be held accountable for?
Eurozone crisis, immigration crisis, one of its members leaving. Heads of government always get it in the neck for everything that goes wrong, except for the heads of the eu for some reason.
The commission serves 5 year terms, this term ends next year. The parliament will have to decide if Juncker stays or goes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/14 13:53:14
Future War Cultist wrote: Thing is though, when our PMs feth up they do pay for it at the ballot box. John Major, Gordon Brown, even May got a slap during her GE for being stupid. The same can’t be said for the President Of The Commission. Think Juncker and his crowd will be held accountable for everything during his term?
For what should he be held accountable for?
Eurozone crisis, immigration crisis, one of its members leaving. Heads of government always get it in the neck for everything that goes wrong, except for the heads of the eu for some reason.
Agreed.
People will look at this and think, it's Brexit DINLT backing Brexit FWC in another anti-EU rant, but regardless of whether they're to blame or not, Brexit and the immigration crisis happened on Tusk and Juncker's watch.
They should have stepped down for new leadership. Heads of organisations do it all the time, even when they're not to blame.
The buck stops here and al that...
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deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
EAT - SLEEP - FARM - REPEAT 
It is reported he has Sciatica. Now having a parent that also suffers from this I can definitely relate to the pain and weakness this causes. This is not just a 'sore back'
