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I tried that fear is for the weak rule and it was brilliant.....I still lost but it does work lol

something i keep seeing in this thread that should be pointed out.

Most of the people who are saying that the standard chaos legion trooper should be a better warrior than current marines keep throwing in the bit about "they have been around for ten thousand years."

Most of the people who disagree with that keep saying "due to the instability of the warp its more like 100 years to them."

First off the whole 100 years bit is in reference to the night lords books. Those particular marines have only aged 100 years, but that has nothing to do with all of the other bands of HH marines that took to the warp. As far as we have been told one group hiding in the warp may turn 10,000 years into 100. but another can turn 10,000 years into 1,000 or 5,000. Every time you go in you don't know what time it will be when you come out. There may be a band of night lords that has been actually fighting for almost 10,000 years. We don't know cos no one has told us. Also what about legions that haven't taken refuge in the warp?

Another thing to consider is we keep talking about the chaos legions like they are still ten thousand man strong cohesive fighting forces. Three of the main ones aren't. The world eaters and the emperors children have both broken into small warbands, as have the 1k sons. I love the idea of a giant EC force tromping through the Imperium making loud noises and getting friendly with farm animals, but unless there is a big retcon on the old fluff as to what happened to the legions after the HH that's never going to happen.

I think the fact that the base traitor marine had an extra attack was the perfect show of their extra skill and fervor on the battlefield, but now that the wolves and BAs have that (and i wouldn't be surprised if C:SM got it in the next redux) Its nothing special, Thank you codex creep.

I think that the idea that they can have access to 2 specials or their heavy before the unit reaches ten models is a great idea. We need to be able to have units that show some sort of attrition. To make it fair so small units with 2 meltas doesn't get spammed I would make the weapons cost more unless the unit was at ten models.

You bring up a good point, straight. Besides, even if most of the ORIGINAL legionnaires are dead through the hundreds of years of combat they have been through in the Eye, the current traitors in the Eye would only be a handful of generations removed from the originals.


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dionysus wrote:something i keep seeing in this thread that should be pointed out.

Most of the people who are saying that the standard chaos legion trooper should be a better warrior than current marines keep throwing in the bit about "they have been around for ten thousand years."

Most of the people who disagree with that keep saying "due to the instability of the warp its more like 100 years to them."

First off the whole 100 years bit is in reference to the night lords books. Those particular marines have only aged 100 years, but that has nothing to do with all of the other bands of HH marines that took to the warp. As far as we have been told one group hiding in the warp may turn 10,000 years into 100. but another can turn 10,000 years into 1,000 or 5,000. Every time you go in you don't know what time it will be when you come out. There may be a band of night lords that has been actually fighting for almost 10,000 years. We don't know cos no one has told us. Also what about legions that haven't taken refuge in the warp?

Let's assume that you are right, let's assume that there are actual chaos marines running around who ate so ZOMG awesome that they have actually lived ten times the time the oldest space marine has been around, without time dilation or anything like that.

How the heck have they survived that long? Space marines are not immortal, (otherwise why are chaos marines always going on about the immortality of daemon prince-hood?) but they die before their time due to all the fighting they do. How have these heresy era marines survived nearly daily battles for 10'000 years when your average marine can only last a few hundred? When the oldest space marine, a member of a chapter renowned for longevity, is a mere 1200 and is a fricking chapter master!?

Pah-leeez

GentlemanGuy wrote:I tried that fear is for the weak rule and it was brilliant.....I still lost but it does work lol

Awesome, glad you liked it, better luck next time! We made the rule just to balance the non cult units to their loyalist cousins, and it adds flavor to the game to boot.

My post was not to confirm or deny the fighting for 10,000 years. It was to point out that you all keep working with the extremes 100 and 10,000 years. the 100 based on one book reference about 1 band of marines, and the 10,000 based on the assumption that there was no funky time dilation. If that 10,000 years was broken down to 1,000 years or even 500 years of real fighting since the heresy, Legion marines still have a boat load more experience that the standard marine. But to say that the ever chaotic warp has aged every single chaos marine only 100 years....

That would mean that over ten thousand years the imperium has only fought chaos for a total of 100 of them. unless your saying the chaos marines take turns to keep um busy. but the imperium still cant keep up?

dionysus wrote:
That would mean that over ten thousand years the imperium has only fought chaos for a total of 100 of them. unless your saying the chaos marines take turns to keep um busy. but the imperium still cant keep up?

No, they are saying that time flows differently in the warp. For some it might be 100 years others might be 10 thousand years, others might be 20 thousand but when they leave the warp it's thrown them out 10 billions years into the past and there is no one to kill

10 000 years have past by in the material realm but Astartes don't live that long, ones that aren't in Dreadnoughts anyway. Dante is the oldest at 1100ish years, so he has combat experience to draw on that could rival a legionnaire.

I guess a good example of a fight between a Legionnaire and a Chapter Astartes is between Xarl and the Blood Angel in Soul Hunter by ADB.

Where the Blood Angel is matched, if not better, than Xarl in combat, Xarl is able to beat him due to his battle experience.

I don't believe that all the Legionnaires have been fighting for 10k years but they do have the advantage of probably fighting more, also with a greater chance of fighting other Astartes from other warbands and the like.

Chapter Astartes are as good as a Legionnaire, but the Legionnaire has possibly a greater well of combat experience to draw on.

I think it was an early HH book. Someone said there that "Space Marines are functionally immortal, but it is ironical because they are destined to die in battle" or it might have been in Rynn's World. Meh. Anyway,

How the heck have they survived that long? Space marines are not immortal, (otherwise why are chaos marines always going on about the immortality of daemon prince-hood?) but they die before their time due to all the fighting they do.

Daemon princes? They refer to immortality becaase, if you become a Daemon Prince, you become a Daemon. And Daemons cannot be killed, only sent back to the warp, from which they will return. There are lots of famous examples of this.

Also most of the ORIGINAL (as you subtly put it) traitors are likely dead, yes. Some are left, like the CSM special characters, and an unknown amount of their gross friends. But they recruit as well. Variation is normal; some CSM may be worse trained, some better trained. Variation is the nature of Chaos.


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Age of marines is unknown, the Warp IS irregular. Blackhoof, I told you this on another thread, but your lack of answer there indicates you either is beaten or don't care anymore.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Actually due to attrition and lack of resupply most Chaos marines spend the majority of their time slaughtering defenseless civilians and (sometimes) PDF until the imperial space marines show up and chase them away. The inevitable degredation in skills and equipment that results will be reflected on the tabletop by their 4+ save, WS 3 and Ld 7. They will also cost 20 pts each to reflect their dwindling numbers.

Except, you're forgetting that the chaos legions have innumerable dark mechanicum servants who repair,maintain and create new tech for them. They are just as able (if not more so) as the imperial mechanicum, and given they aren't plagued with the same stigma and phobias as their imperial counterparts, they can do much more without restraint.

The iron warriors have entire forgeworlds to themselves where they produce land raiders, rhinos, power armor and weapons (second ultrarmarines book) not to mention more sinister devices, like defilers. I'm probably wrong, but I seem to remember something about the dark-mechanicum being able to create new titans. Surely the ones carried over from the heresy would be in disrepair already.

But, this isn't necessarily true of all legions. The night lords, more likely than not, are still surviving on whatever they took in the heresy, and what they steal from loyalists.

Also, the Vehicles and tech they stole in the heresy was more than likely an entirely different pattern from what marines use now. I wonder if it would be too much to ask to get plastics of the new FW kits, or something similar, albeit with more chaos goodness

I would be happy if chaos legionaires got Stubborn as their army-wide rule.

37 pages in, not a lot of news or rumors to talk about...

This starting to turn into a Fluff Debate.

It might be time to close up shop and/or move this elsewhere soon....

Alpharius wrote:37 pages in, not a lot of news or rumors to talk about...

This starting to turn into a Fluff Debate.

It might be time to close up shop and/or move this elsewhere soon....

What do you mean "starting?"

^ I agree, I keep checking in only to find debates. Which are all well thought out and even engrossing, but also inappropriate.

Red Corsair wrote:^ I agree, I keep checking in only to find debates. Which are all well thought out and even engrossing, but also inappropriate.

It's also pretty cyclical, so while it was interesting at first it's lost some of its luster.
"Chaos Marines are old and should be better!"
"They're not quite as old as you think and shouldn't be as good as you think!"
"Chaos Marines are old and should be better!"

There's nothing new to talk about. We know chaos is getting a codex in the next year, and that it'll be a legions codex, not a chaos marine codex. That's really all we can be sure of. All of ghost's rumours are more or less gak now, so there's no point in keeping this thread up, at least in the rumours section.

According to the latest release schedule rumors Chaos fans are going to have to wait until the 2nd quarter of 2013 for our dex. I don't buy it, cause my sources say right after 6th ed.

BDJV wrote:According to the latest release schedule rumors Chaos fans are going to have to wait until the 2nd quarter of 2013 for our dex. I don't buy it, cause my sources say right after 6th ed.

Stickmonkey is full of it. He has never been right about things of importance. Every year he writes what's coming and every year it is wrong. Then he deletes the thread and bam everyone forgets. Also more proof last year his prediction on chaos. They would not get a new book. Also he seems to think orkz aren't an army cause he always forgets them. Also go back 2 years dark eldar will never get a new book stop wish listing were his exact words. I used to post on warseer. I posted pictures I had gotten on some dark eldar stuff. I was given a ban cause I told stickmonkey off and showed the pictures. So yes again that fool is nothing but a fool.

He was the first to put the Necron release date to Halloween 2011, one year in advance. I call that a hit.
Esp. when even Harry nowadays doesn't dare such far ahead predictions.

For every one of those there's 10 Summer of Fliers.

Just close this particular thread already, even if there are new rumors.

Kroothawk wrote:He was the first to put the Necron release date to Halloween 2011, one year in advance. I call that a hit.
Esp. when even Harry nowadays doesn't dare such far ahead predictions.

So in 2 years he had 1 thing right? Here let me give a rumor. The next codex will have rules an army and some new models and will be out Q1.

cgage00 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:He was the first to put the Necron release date to Halloween 2011, one year in advance. I call that a hit.
Esp. when even Harry nowadays doesn't dare such far ahead predictions.

So in 2 years he had 1 thing right? Here let me give a rumor. The next codex will have rules an army and some new models and will be out Q1.

And how does that compare to Stickmonkey stating that Necrons would be released in OCT/NOV of 2011? BTW, Stickmonkey was also dead on in regards to a warrior sized CC JP unit.

Anyways, I am getting a little tired of these low-content posts that simply thrash a particular rumor bearer...it is starting to get more common than Dakka's previous "Salt" meme.

Listen, if you don't believe StickMonkey's rumor that Chaos won't come out till 2013 then rebutt it with another source and quote the source. That would be a constructive post. Please don't just post Mr. X is crap.

For example:

bhsman wrote:For every one of those there's 10 Summer of Fliers.

He said, 7 flyers are in the works.
Since then 2 have been released (Storm Raven and Razorwing), and 6-7 more are in the rumours (DE bomber with last minute delay, 1-2 necron flyers, Eldar Vampyre, SM flyer, Harpy with Tyranid 2nd wave delay, Tau flyer). The summer of flyer was always flagged as personal speculation by stickmonkey: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327075.page . Not his fault that some people can't read what he said.

BTW here some Necron rumours by him, a year in advance (2-3 others didn't happen though):

Immortals possible move to Troops choice.
New Elite options
Pariahs no longer 0-1
Additional C'Tan
plastic Tomb Spyder box to make TS or variant.

And in 2010, he also predicted 40k 6th edition in 2012.
If you need more hits, just ask. Although some are still in the future.

Stickmonkey's sources are from the early production cycle, so reach far ahead but are necessary prone to changes. So these rumours are for people who can deal with uncertainties in rumours.

Okay, on topic:

theDarkGeneral wrote:Just one more thing i've heard...

*Chosen Chaos Marines: Definitely getting a lot more upgrade options! They'll get costly quickly depending upon your Legion, and what kind of wargear and armor they take. Jump packs, Terminator Armor, all combis, dual lightning claws, etc. Lots of options, but again, you'll be paying the points for them. AND, not sure on this part, but it was mentioned that specific HQ choices can take a Chosen squad as a retinue/bodyguard to free up their normal Force Org Chart slot selection. That'd be nice!

To be fair to all the rumor mongers though, the predictions about 6th ed coming out next July isn't a rumor, rather, it's a 'why the hell wouldn't GW release something BIG!' since 2012 is the 25th anniversary of 40k. (and GW fethed up the fantasy 25th anniversary pretty badly, so 40k needs to be epic to make-up for it)
A little additional simple math kinda seals the deal; 5th ed dropped in '08 = 4 years agao. GW rules sets have lately been lasting 4-5 years before a re-boot.

Not trying to take away from all of our rumor mongers! I really appreciate all the work you guys go to in order to give us the tidbits & hints we do have!
But I was also predicting 6th ed in 2012 to every one of our regular 40k players when i worked at the local GW last year... (and even got a, "well derp, of corse!" from some of the regional guys when I posed this theory to them)

I think new edition releases are likely to always be GW's worst kept secret and something we call all pretty much predict!

If I were to post a similar volume of rumours like stickmonkey and ghost do, I would get more of them right than they do. And I would just be making educated guesses.

Let me do one just now: Warhammer Fantasy 9th in 2014. Feel free to write it down and believe everything else I ever say once it comes true. I only need one hit, right?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think it was an early HH book. Someone said there that "Space Marines are functionally immortal, but it is ironical because they are destined to die in battle" or it might have been in Rynn's World. Meh. Anyway,

How the heck have they survived that long? Space marines are not immortal, (otherwise why are chaos marines always going on about the immortality of daemon prince-hood?) but they die before their time due to all the fighting they do.

Daemon princes? They refer to immortality becaase, if you become a Daemon Prince, you become a Daemon. And Daemons cannot be killed, only sent back to the warp, from which they will return. There are lots of famous examples of this.

oh.... quite a good point, actually. I concede my point was invalid. However, Blood Angels are famed for their longevity among space marines, as evidenced on Lexicanum here:
"The Blood Angels are among the longest-lived of the Adeptus Astartes, with some of the Chapter's Space Marines having served the Emperor of Mankind for over a thousand standard years."

linky: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Angels

if space marines were truly immortal, as in- they can be killed but cannot die of old age- then why are Blood Angels held to be especially long-lived?

Also most of the ORIGINAL (as you subtly put it) traitors are likely dead, yes. Some are left, like the CSM special characters, and an unknown amount of their gross friends. But they recruit as well. Variation is normal; some CSM may be worse trained, some better trained. Variation is the nature of Chaos.

I know.... why are you telling me this?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Age of marines is unknown, the Warp IS irregular. Blackhoof, I told you this on another thread, but your lack of answer there indicates you either is beaten or don't care anymore.
i agree that it is impossible to know the ages of each and every chaos marine, some may be 1000, some 100, but i seriously doubt that ANY are over 1000, not just because it seems their bodies would finally give out before then, but also because warfare would have killed them long beforehand.

and i got bored on the other thread....

replies in blue.

Blackhoof wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think it was an early HH book. Someone said there that "Space Marines are functionally immortal, but it is ironical because they are destined to die in battle" or it might have been in Rynn's World. Meh. Anyway,

How the heck have they survived that long? Space marines are not immortal, (otherwise why are chaos marines always going on about the immortality of daemon prince-hood?) but they die before their time due to all the fighting they do.

Daemon princes? They refer to immortality becaase, if you become a Daemon Prince, you become a Daemon. And Daemons cannot be killed, only sent back to the warp, from which they will return. There are lots of famous examples of this.

oh.... quite a good point, actually. I concede my point was invalid. However, Blood Angels are famed for their longevity among space marines, as evidenced on Lexicanum here:
"The Blood Angels are among the longest-lived of the Adeptus Astartes, with some of the Chapter's Space Marines having served the Emperor of Mankind for over a thousand standard years."

linky: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Angels

if space marines were truly immortal, as in- they can be killed but cannot die of old age- then why are Blood Angels held to be especially long-lived?

Also most of the ORIGINAL (as you subtly put it) traitors are likely dead, yes. Some are left, like the CSM special characters, and an unknown amount of their gross friends. But they recruit as well. Variation is normal; some CSM may be worse trained, some better trained. Variation is the nature of Chaos.

I know.... why are you telling me this?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Age of marines is unknown, the Warp IS irregular. Blackhoof, I told you this on another thread, but your lack of answer there indicates you either is beaten or don't care anymore.
i agree that it is impossible to know the ages of each and every chaos marine, some may be 1000, some 100, but i seriously doubt that ANY are over 1000, not just because it seems their bodies would finally give out before then, but also because warfare would have killed them long beforehand.

and i got bored on the other thread....

replies in blue.

Ah there seem to be a misunderstanding. Marines are technically immortal. Blood Angels may be an unusually lucky chapter in that the oldest of their members have not yet died in battle, or Blood Angels may be an extremely powerful chapter in raw strength and might (which explains their rules ) . Take Bjorn the Fell-handed. He, most certainly, is more than 10.000 years old. (even if he sleeps a lot) But being in a Dreadnought does not affect lifetime, as far as I know. Have you not read it too? Ithink it was in the conversation between Captain Loken and some remembrancer that Loken said "Space Marines are technically immortal, but they are destined to die in battle" (may not be the exact formulation)

*going to lexicanum*

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Ah there seem to be a misunderstanding. Marines are technically immortal. Blood Angels may be an unusually lucky chapter in that the oldest of their members have not yet died in battle, or Blood Angels may be an extremely powerful chapter in raw strength and might (which explains their rules ) . Take Bjorn the Fell-handed. He, most certainly, is more than 10.000 years old. (even if he sleeps a lot) But being in a Dreadnought does not affect lifetime, as far as I know. Have you not read it too? Ithink it was in the conversation between Captain Loken and some remembrancer that Loken said "Space Marines are technically immortal, but they are destined to die in battle" (may not be the exact formulation)

*going to lexicanum*

They may be 'immortal' (that is to say I haven't read of a marine dying of old age), however they become useless long before they could die from natural causes. From a fairly recent BL book there was a loyalist marine who was indeed a few millenium old (I forget the exact amount), however his body had degraded to the point where he could no longer move within his power armour, he had been that way for several centuries if I recall correctly.

I think you're referring to Salamander, but in that case he had been sat down and immobile for centuries, and I took it that he had essentially atrophied through inactivity, rather than degraded with age.

Looks like we're done here...