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Why not Khorne vs Tzneetch? makes the most sense to me. Khorne haters Psykers which is why all the Khorne Librarians/Sorcerers were sacrificed and slaughtered. Tzneetch is the embodiment of psykers!

happygolucky wrote:I see...

could anybody explain to me why the pairings hate each other please?

Nurgle - perfect entropy, Tzeentch - eternal change. Also, despair/hope.

Khorne and Slaanesh are a bit tricky though as I can't recall what made them enemies.

It's all explained in the 3.5 codex. The 4th codex didn't mention any of this I don't think. Because it sucks, fluffwise. And while Khorne's opposite is Slaanesh, he also does not like Tzeentch, because he thinks sorcery is for pansies.

The 3.5 codex changed the foc around depending on what mark the chaos lord had. Any unit that had a mark different from his became elite. The new codex could easily use the same system. What I really want to see come back is favored numbers.

IIRC, the Khorne/Slaanesh rivalry comes from their depictions during RT, when Khorne was more about martial prowess than MOAR SKULLS!

At which point Martial Discipline vs. Foppish Debauchery makes a bit more sense.

His Master's Voice nailed the Nurgle/Tzeentch rivalry.

Yeah, I'll just have to go and check Slaves of Darkness when I get home.

Thanks for the clarification

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:If the cults ever have their own codices Terminators make sense, but in the context of a single codex, it makes no sense to have 5 units that are as similar when you have 5 more units that are also similar. It also becomes justifiable to say how about havoc and bike squads... and suddenly you have 20 units in the book used similarly and to the mutual exclusion of the other.

3.5 managed to give us all these different units without dozens of unit entries. No reason why that can't work again.

Indeed, the terminator upgrade was just the cult marines upgraded with terminator armor and different options that took an elites slot. I miss the thousand son terminators so bad... 32 points for a 2 wound terminator? Yes please =(. Well, that was 3.5...

Having been a Thousand Son fanboy since the 2nd edition rules, its been disappointing to see how they changed the TS for worse.

I'd like to see 2 wounds on rubric marines again and have the sorcerers either auto cast powers like they used to (or like demons do in a sense) or at least be able to transfer the damage from "perils" onto a nearby rubric marine, its lame to lose a 100 point model to a bad roll in the current edition.

I think 4+ invul, 2 wounds and some kind of protection from the champs/sorcerers from being allocated wounds like every time they are wounded they can transfer the wound onto another rubric model (they are body guards after all). I don't care about the ap3 bolters, they hardly do anything anyway.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The pairings never made sense. You would think that Slaanesh (perfume) would hate nurgle ( body odour) and that Khorne (fighting) would hate Tzeentch (scheming)

They made perfect sense.

Khorne (focus) vs Slaanesh (excess).
Nurgle (stagnation) vs Tzeentch (change).

Geez, thanks HBMC. I couldn't find the right word to describe old Khorne. Focus fits right in.

theDarkgeneral wrote: Models...interesting that a previous poster (i forget their name) mentioned Cult Terminator Shoulder pads...because i've recently been told that there is a NEWISH sprue to be released along with several boxed sets of Chaos Marines. The ability to build any Legion out of the basic NEW boxed set along with Legion specific sprue sets which are to include just heads and shoulder pads. I also hear that the Terminator version will also be available, but not sure if they'll come with power armor sprues. Suppose to be Direct Only.

Hmm. Unless I'm misunderstanding this... I don't like it.. Is this how he's describing it?:

Buy a box of plague marines. Comes with a sprue containing general "nurgly bits" for a unit of plague marines, along with terminator pieces and maybe even a couple dreadnought pieces... everything you need to make a nurgle army really. It also comes with a standard CSM kit (ten models, no extra sprue)....?

This makes the most sense IMO. They kind of did this with the wolf pack kit, although they released the terminators as a separate kit. Wishlisting, of course..

Brother SRM wrote:

Chaos Marines are only how they are (+1 attack for bp/ccw, icons, for worse morale and no ATSKNF) for game balance purposes..

I call shenanigans, they are the way they are due to poor game design. Having the bp/ccw, a Ld bump of +1 and icons that must be paid for then can be lost does not equal the 3 special rules of the Codex Marines. Space Wolves make this comparison even worse at a point for point level. So either A: codex marines and space wolves are both under costed or B: CSM are over costed by about 2 points per model. One of the main problems with GW codex design is the subjective points system they adopted in mid 3rd.

I look forward to the new codex, cause I am hoping they make running basic CSM's a worthwhile part of the army. I am sick to death of having to run cult troops to be competitive.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The pairings never made sense. You would think that Slaanesh (perfume) would hate nurgle ( body odour) and that Khorne (fighting) would hate Tzeentch (scheming)

but Khorne hates Slaanesh's foppish manner and Nurgle (who is convined that everything dies) hates Tzeentch's great game that lasts for ever. Mad world.

In fact while Khorne hates the use of Magic to KILL, in place of Martial Prowess(be it from HtH or Firepower in the Pre-3rd Ed fluff), the only way that magic should be used in Khorne eyes is by making Weapons and Tools of destruction.

After all Khorne is renowed for being the one with the most Deamon Machines, and Chaotic Equipements and Artefacts.

But what he really Hate is the frivolous and uncarring philosophy of Slaanesh.

While Tzeentch Schemes are merely blown away by Khorne's Wrath and Nurgle's Entropy and Self destruction are of a lesser scale then Khorne Destruction Power.

Khorne isn't the Oldest and most Powerfull of the Fours for no reasons.

While its true that Slaanesh looks at Nurlge with disdain and finds Tzeentch eternal Schemes Boring at best.

Nurgle doesn't understand the way of thinking of the Prince of Excess and Tzeentch find that Slaanesh waste his time by beeing Idle most of the time and enjoying himself in Lust.

All of them finds something bothering or stupid with each other, but not as much as the Hate that Oppose Khorne Vs Slaanesh and Nurgle Vs Tzeentch, because they symbolise each other extremes and opposite.

Very well said! And I agree with the fello above about running regular CSM.

I find to be competitive I need to use Berzerker and Plague Marines, I cant get enough CSM to feel competitive and the Noise Marines are way too pricey.. as well as the TS... I read all about how they were designed before transports were so popular and cover... So why not make the AP3 boltguns ignore cover prehaps? Theres enough SM weaponry floating around that ignores cover, why not magical sorcerer infused bolts !

decoste007xt wrote:Very well said! And I agree with the fello above about running regular CSM.

I find to be competitive I need to use Berzerker and Plague Marines, I cant get enough CSM to feel competitive and the Noise Marines are way too pricey.. as well as the TS... I read all about how they were designed before transports were so popular and cover... So why not make the AP3 boltguns ignore cover prehaps? Theres enough SM weaponry floating around that ignores cover, why not magical sorcerer infused bolts !

Noise Marines can be usefull when used right. The trap most players fall into is the idea you need to buy sonic blasters for them.... Or worst yet. Thinking sonic blasters are even good! The extra bolter shot is not worth the price....

I play:
-x2 Lash Scor
-x2 6 Man Noise Marine Squads, Doom Siren/powerweapon/champ, Blast Master.
-x2 10 man CSM with IoCG.
-x3 3 Oblit squads.

Everything that can take a rhinio, has one with Havoc Launcher.

The two scor go in the noise marien squads. I play the army as a gunline using the oblits to crack tanks, Blast Masters to hit infantry with. Scors bunch guys up for plasma cannons latter in the game for the oblits Doom Siren and melta CSM are for keeping stuff away from the oblits.

It is a surprisingly effective list, and the lash scor hiding in a rhino is surprisingly resilient. (It doesn't has a huge bulls eye like the DP, and is a rhino and squad of marines you have to chew threw to get to him.)

Nice!

I indeed fall into that trap, I want to play Noise marines so i can fire 2 shots at 24inches while moving or 3 while stationary.. blastmastering and doomsirening. But all those weapons are costly... they might as well make Noise Marines 25pts because thats what they are with a sonic blaster.. i feel they'd excel vs MEQ because that +1 init is very valued at that point... I fight Orkz a lot and i see no value in the noise marines other than their sonic blasts which like stated feels costly.

I would love to see Slaanesh get some decent choices in the legions codex, i hope for the best for all of it. It doens't have to be OP I just want it to be fun... which doesn't seem to always be the consensus :(

Hell I've found playing daemon weapons to be really fun, jaw droppingly fun or hilariously terrible All I can say is the khorne daemon weapon cleared out 10 terminators on turn 2.. and a Librarian... all on his own ~_^

Sonic weapons are over costed.

decoste007xt wrote:Nice!

I indeed fall into that trap, I want to play Noise marines so i can fire 2 shots at 24inches while moving or 3 while stationary.. blastmastering and doomsirening. But all those weapons are costly... they might as well make Noise Marines 25pts because thats what they are with a sonic blaster.. i feel they'd excel vs MEQ because that +1 init is very valued at that point... I fight Orkz a lot and i see no value in the noise marines other than their sonic blasts which like stated feels costly.

I would love to see Slaanesh get some decent choices in the legions codex, i hope for the best for all of it. It doens't have to be OP I just want it to be fun... which doesn't seem to always be the consensus :(

Hell I've found playing daemon weapons to be really fun, jaw droppingly fun or hilariously terrible All I can say is the khorne daemon weapon cleared out 10 terminators on turn 2.. and a Librarian... all on his own ~_^

Oh god. Sonic blasters are so over coasted, I'd hate being forced to pay for them....

Noise mariens should just be 20 points with sonic blaster.
@.@

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The pairings never made sense. You would think that Slaanesh (perfume) would hate nurgle ( body odour) and that Khorne (fighting) would hate Tzeentch (scheming)

They made perfect sense.

Khorne (focus) vs Slaanesh (excess).
Nurgle (stagnation) vs Tzeentch (change).

This. I can't believe people don't know this (/sarcasm) GW hasn't arbitrarily changed the fluff for no good reason at all (/sarcasm). GW didn't turn this game into Space Marines in different colors, just more kewlnes (/sarcasm)!

decoste007xt wrote:Very well said! And I agree with the fello above about running regular CSM.

I find to be competitive I need to use Berzerker and Plague Marines, I cant get enough CSM to feel competitive and the Noise Marines are way too pricey.. as well as the TS... I read all about how they were designed before transports were so popular and cover... So why not make the AP3 boltguns ignore cover prehaps? Theres enough SM weaponry floating around that ignores cover, why not magical sorcerer infused bolts !

By the Dark gods beard, i hope not...

Or maybe give them the choice between Anti cover AP4 rounds or AP3 rounds, but no AP3 No cover...

I hate what the game as turned into..., ine one codex a single model as an invulnerable save of 3+ for only a whole turn, because of a special circumstance, and the Codex that comes after a whole unit can have 3+ Inuvl saves..., and the Codex after a whole unit AND the HQ choices and so on and so on...

Until the moment where we get whole Army's of Invul 3+ Saves with Power weapons of Doom that makes 6D6 wounds per models and that can fly around...

Its not really the Weapon escalating who has nothing to envy the Weapons programmes from the Cold War, but the fact that each Codex one after another is just more OP then the previous...

Until we reach the point where like between the 2nd and 3rd Ed we all get the bad side of the Nerf bat in the face, and that GW once again try's to make a new Codex model like what we had with the DA and CSM dex...

So please people, stop asking for those kind of stuff..., the balance of the game is allready bad as it is, without giving any bright ideas like that...

Yes i want a CSM book that strikes fear into the heart of my ennemy's, but not for the simple sake to make my opponent cry and that he would never play with me again...

Lockark wrote:

decoste007xt wrote:Nice!

I indeed fall into that trap, I want to play Noise marines so i can fire 2 shots at 24inches while moving or 3 while stationary.. blastmastering and doomsirening. But all those weapons are costly... they might as well make Noise Marines 25pts because thats what they are with a sonic blaster.. i feel they'd excel vs MEQ because that +1 init is very valued at that point... I fight Orkz a lot and i see no value in the noise marines other than their sonic blasts which like stated feels costly.

I would love to see Slaanesh get some decent choices in the legions codex, i hope for the best for all of it. It doens't have to be OP I just want it to be fun... which doesn't seem to always be the consensus :(

Hell I've found playing daemon weapons to be really fun, jaw droppingly fun or hilariously terrible All I can say is the khorne daemon weapon cleared out 10 terminators on turn 2.. and a Librarian... all on his own ~_^

Oh god. Sonic blasters are so over coasted, I'd hate being forced to pay for them....

Noise mariens should just be 20 points with sonic blaster.
@.@

If you really want to piss people off give noise marines back their original rule of exploding a psychers head within 24" on a 4+. I would love to see the bitching born of this.

I do hope noise marines become useful again. Same with thousand sons though with them i think its more to do with the models then the rules

Being thinking on how to make a differenciation Between CSM and SM rule wise, SM got ATSKNF, while its true we got+1 CD, SM are quite resilient, you can't Outrun them and crush them in a Sweeping Advance, yes they do however take extra wounds, but that doesn't garantue anything much.

It's obvious thats Chaos shouldn't have ATSKNF,but maybe give Chaos something more aggresive like Prefered Ennemy [Imperial] OR/AND the ability that if they are destroyed in a ennemy Sweeping Advance, the ennemy unit must do 1D3(or a mere 1 per model) Saves Per models in the CSM unit.

It would represent the fact that even on the brink of death,CSM are still dangerous and still fight in their dying breath.

Or, you know, Stubborn. To represent that Tenacity and refusal to just give up.

The unit could still be broken and still wiped out with sweeping advances but it would be that much harder to break, rather than the current sorry situation where your units are either Fearless Cult troops or get steamrolled by BA/GK/SW with minimal effort.

ASTKNF and Combat Tactics is quite a disgusting combination because being able to break off, reform and assault again in the next turn makes even a Tactical squad a nasty little prospect nevermind Assault Squads or...Terminators.

Yep, when used properly ATSKNF and Combat Tactics can be really quite nasty.

I agree that Fearless really does have a sting in it's tail, Stubborn would make much more sense, but I would rather just see a brand new rule created for Legionnaires in the same vain as ATSKNF.

I would also like to reiterate that the new Codex is Chaos Legions, not Chaos Space marines. There is a significant difference.

StraightSilver wrote:
I would also like to reiterate that the new Codex is Chaos Legions, not Chaos Space marines. There is a significant difference.

Doesn't matter, for me they are Chaos Space Marines and they will stay like it.

Just as Chaos Universal is Chaos Universal and not Chaos Undiveded in my eyes.

I think he is hinting at earlier rumors that GW has plans on splitting the forces of chaos once again. One Codex will be Legions and the second will be CSM/Renegades.

Wyomingfox is correct, from my understanding the Legions Codex will be seperate from the CSM one.

Chaos Legionnaires and Chaos Space Marines are significantly different.

It would be like saying Grey Knights and Ultramarines are the same, which they are not.

The new Codex will focus on the Legions that fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy.

The Chaos Space Marine Codex was supposed to represent Marines who have turned traitor since the Heresy, or Renegades thrown out of their Chapter / Legion.

Chaos Legionnaires are a different kettle of fish entirely, and their rules will reflect this. The Space marines we know of in the 41st Millennium are not a patch on their brothers 10,000 years before.

The Legions Codex will focus on the Legions and Legionnaires who famously turned Traitor, so expect them to be quite different from your current CSMs

I'm just personally expecting them to be...well...competitive. To be perfectly frank the current mess is just that, a mess. They harped on how the focus was the more recent Renegades (bad move number one) and then proceeded to fill the codex with units that had all the old archaic equipment (Reaper autocannons, combi weapons, no more 'modern' equipment...) and lacked any elements that would suggest it to be more recent....

What will happen to my good pal Huron Blackheart?

He'll live over in Chaos Space Marines: Renegades or whatever they end up calling the Not Legion Chaos Space Marines Codex...