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Huron Blackheart will remain in the CSM Codex as far as I know. The Legions Codes does not replace the CSM one, it is in addition to it.

I think it will be interesting to see where GW deals chooses to keep the different Chaos special characters. While the vast majority of the Chaos characters are Legion era, Chaos marines, some also have a Renegade status amongst their former legion.... though they still represent the charcterization of that legion. More than other codices the Chaos codex has carried a substantial through the last few editions. GW may use the split between Renegade and Legion as a way of shedding one or two to make room for new ones. Fabius Bile being a bit more of a loner type is a good example of that; where in a book full of elite marines, his impact is less substantial than bringing chaos veteran quality troops into an army of Traitor guard and generally more basic chaos marines. The two codex split is also a good opportunity to bring back Cypher in the Renegade codex.

Okay, true they have stagnated, but do you think they sit about drinking beer and catching rays?
No, they constantly fight, so I think they are sharp if not sharper than most Marines

What a load of horse manure. If this is an example of logic used by the chaos codex writers then the GK codex will bee a work of genius in comparison.

Because we all know loyalist marines just sit down having drinks on the beach.

It´s as slowed as claiming that "mine" half of the ork population are so much sharper and better then your orks because my orks fight all the time and um, your half og the ork population dont like fighting nearly as much so they are whimps.

Pyriel- wrote:

Okay, true they have stagnated, but do you think they sit about drinking beer and catching rays?
No, they constantly fight, so I think they are sharp if not sharper than most Marines

What a load of horse manure. If this is an example of logic used by the chaos codex writers then the GK codex will bee a work of genius in comparison.

Because we all know loyalist marines just sit down having drinks on the beach.

It´s as slowed as claiming that "mine" half of the ork population are so much sharper and better then your orks because my orks fight all the time and um, your half og the ork population dont like fighting nearly as much so they are whimps.

I think the question should be what to loyalists do vs. Chaos dureing thier "down time"?

-Loyalists pray to the emperor and train for battle.
-CSM worship and pray to the dark gods, Squabble among them selves, try to work their way up the ranks/gain the favour of their deities, ect


I don't think their would be that much difference between a Basic CSM and your average Tac Squad loyalist. (At-least on the table top.) But I suspect their elites, HQ's, ect would be made of harder stuff then thier loyalist counter part.

1)They had to kill the guy who had the position before them.
2)That guy was probably demoniacally gifted.
3)They would of gotten their own demonic gifts for achieving such a feet.
4)They now have to defend that position from would-be up-starts.

It's like that old fluff bit about Chaos Terminater armour. Loyalists are given terminator armour for their great achievements and earning the respect of the chapter. If your a CSM terminator, you earned your armour by killing the last guy who wore it. (And probably well he was wearing it to boot!)

At least that is how I understand the fluff, If someone wants to correct me.

It's like that old fluff bit about Chaos Terminater armour. Loyalists are given terminator armour for their great achievements and earning the respect of the chapter. If your a CSM terminator, you earned your armour by killing the last guy who wore it. (And probably well he was wearing it to boot!)

At least that is how I understand the fluff, If someone wants to correct me.

I agree but since nowhere on the tabletop are the drawbacks of killing your way up and consequently defending your position from backstabbing, represented then nowhere should the advantages of being a little more tougher be represented either.

You see while the loyal marine can cover in the ditch with his buddies each one covering anothers back and teamworking away to victory the chaos marine has to constantly watch his back in the same ditch or else his buddy will kill him any time to get to take over his armour. Hardly any teamworking or helping each others forward. But as the drawbacks are nowhere to be seen so shouldnt the advantages.

Plus while the chaos marines have deamonic gifts to compensate for lousier tech the loyalists have better equipment to counter with.

What I am saying is that there is really no difference in toughness or skill between a loyal or traitor since they both kill things and train during their downtime on a constant basis and they both advance in rank by skill and toughness albeit in different ways.

The notion that traitors have lived for 10k years is laughable as time moves differently in the warp, chaos legions simply do not consist of 10 000 dudes that would make Dante and Logan look like naked babies. They die of due to attrition, accidents, war etc just as much.
Looking at novels that handle this like the Night Lords books the so called 10k year old super veterans really only experienced a hundred years making them the equivalent to first company loyalists in the majority of the cases.

But being this is a new codex everything just MUST be overly exaggerated by the idiots who write the fluff, whooa, tehy are 10k years old and fight constantly so must be bigger and badder then the loyalists who only pray and drink softdrinks all day long.
You´ll see, when the time comes for the SM dex to be remade they will be written about as the most baddest baddasses, just like every alien codex out spells the utter doom of the Imperium.

*sigh*

Sometimes I wonder if they really write the codex fluff for 10 year olds.

Ah yes, ridiculous hyperbole about fluff you haven't seen yet! That's one of my favorite inexplicable posting habits.

If it comes out and the fluff is horrible, go ahead. Until then, there's not much to say about it. Most fluff is pretty sane for 40k, which is already a ridiculous cartoon.

Pyriel- wrote:It´s as slowed as claiming that "mine" half of the ork population are so much sharper and better then your orks because my orks fight all the time and um, your half og the ork population dont like fighting nearly as much so they are whimps.

If you had ork veterans that were constantly fighting for 10,000 years you had better believe that they would be so much sharper and better. Your logic is tragic.

Pyriel, you're logic baffles me.

They spend every moment that isn't consumed by fighting quarreling and posturing themselves amongst each other, zealously competing for the acknowledgment of their gods. I seriously doubt that space marines do anything NEARLY as intense as what CSM do on a regular basis. Not to mention they general desensitization that Legionairres go through after thousands of years in combat. Sights that would drive a loyalist to madness don't even stir Chaos Marines. They are hard, powerful creatures.. unfaltering in their devotion to their legion and Dieties, more so than Loyalists to the emperor.

Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.

Er no, that is actually mostly in doubt, really...

Or at the very least, certainly not set in stone!

Alpharius wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.

Er no, that is actually mostly in doubt, really...

Or at the very least, certainly not set in stone!

Bah! I'm a chaos fanboy, I believe what I want to.

Personally, I don't care if the rules represent my ideas of Chaos Marines or not. I'm perfectly happy with the current stat-line, and to represent all kinds of different CSM, I think that stat line does an alright job. Certainly, not every chaos marine is a hulking, genocidal monster.

There are several examples in the few books I've read of Chaos Marines of non-descript variety going toe to toe with space marine captains and other characters of distinguishable variety though. The Night Lords fighting the ultramarines in the Uriel Ventris Pilot-book comes to mind. The only reason Uriel lives through a fight with some raptors is because he steals one of their plasma pistols.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Pyriel, you're logic baffles me.

They spend every moment that isn't consumed by fighting quarreling and posturing themselves amongst each other, zealously competing for the acknowledgment of their gods. I seriously doubt that space marines do anything NEARLY as intense as what CSM do on a regular basis. Not to mention they general desensitization that Legionairres go through after thousands of years in combat. Sights that would drive a loyalist to madness don't even stir Chaos Marines. They are hard, powerful creatures.. unfaltering in their devotion to their legion and Dieties, more so than Loyalists to the emperor.

Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.

So then let's just make them 'movie marines' already because that seems to be what some people here are suggesting they should be...

It's called game balance! (let's be thankfull we have the slight bit that we do!) Marines are under powered conpared to what they should be, as are chaos marines. I would *never* want to see the rules mimic the backround as games would just be silly.
Hell, if the rules reflected the background, you'd need about 100 guardsmen to kill maybe 5-10 marines, and eldar would be almost impossible to hit because they're crazy elf-ninjas, while orks would continue to fight for a turn or two after you kill them!

I really don't want to see Chaos Legions get the levels of obnoxious stupidity that GK's got. Rather, I'd like to see a book that's somewhere between the levels of codex marines & space wolves.
I'm honestly hoping that GW can do for 40k in 6th what they've started doing to fantasy in 8th; reasonable and reletively balanced books that have BOTH decent internal AND external balance! (no more OTT 'auto must-haves' and boring spamy gak please!)

Just so you know, I really enjoy reading this thread. It has been very educational for me concerning the Chaos background.
I do strongly agree that Chaos should be made a much bigger threat to the imperium than it currenly is fluff wise, instead of them just being bulky space pirates.
IMHO the Chaos marines dedicating themselves to the Chaos gods to gain benefits and power should be represented properly in the coming Chaos Legions book.
I think stat wise it is represented acceptably in the current Chaos book, but the basic Chaos marines themselves should have a more fanatical feel to them. Perhaps something like army-wise Fearless, or a less powerful special rule could do the trick, but currently, I don't like them being scared easier than loyalists (of course with the exception of cult troops).
I don't want Chaos legions to be as good as the current Grey Knights, but I certainly want them to have options, like cult terminators, that would be a lot more powerful individually than the loyalist counterparts (of course with an increase in points).

I agree that the CSM stat line is fine as it is, what they need is their own army wide special rule for the non cult marines.

My group made up a special rule for CSM's called Fear is for the Weak: it gives the basic non cult units Stubborn and the ability to regroup below below half strength.

Works well for us, I hope GW does something to make them better, or we will keep using our own little house rule.

Pyriel- wrote:
Plus while the chaos marines have deamonic gifts to compensate for lousier tech the loyalists have better equipment to counter with.

Yeah...like the AdMec/TechMarines are any brighter then their Chaos counterparts...

The guys just casually "forgot" or "loose" a technology...,they are unable to make new or hardly maintain what they allready have...

In regards CSM can do new things, because there isn't any of the Deus Mec BS to forbide them to do so...

So yeah...CSM or Legionaires are better then regular Imperial goons...

BDJV wrote:I agree that the CSM stat line is fine as it is, what they need is their own army wide special rule for the non cult marines.

My group made up a special rule for CSM's called Fear is for the Weak: it gives the basic non cult units Stubborn and the ability to regroup below below half strength.

Works well for us, I hope GW does something to make them better, or we will keep using our own little house rule.

Actually thats pretty good!

Experiment 626 wrote:

It's called game balance! (let's be thankfull we have the slight bit that we do!)

Yeah...*looks at the GK, BA and Necron dexes...*...riiiiiight....

Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.

Wow, your logic is amazing, I am so convinced.

If you had ork veterans that were constantly fighting for 10,000 years you had better believe that they would be so much sharper and better. Your logic is tragic.

Ah, the famous flame baiter trying to do it again.
Common you can do better then that. lol
...or maybe not.

Ok, from a fluff background there are lots of reasons why Legionnaires would be quite a lot harder than 40K Space Marines, or current Chaos Space Marines.

The Legionnaires who fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy were mostly first and second generation post-humans, created directly from their Primarch's Gene Seed 10,000 years before any other type of Marine.

Their gene seed therefore would have been much purer and wouldn't have degraded in the same way that modern (40K) Marines Gene Seed has.

The majority of 40K marines have lost the use of at least one of their gene seed impants.

For example very few Marines can still use the Betcher's Gland.

Also 10,000 years of harvesting and reusing Gene Seed has meant that in many cases the Gene Seed has degraded.

Chaos Space Marines are made up of loyalist Marines turned traitor, or Chaos Marines created using captured loyalist Gene Seed (Storm of Iron).

However Legionnaires are actually the original traitors from the Heresy, a completely different prospect to modern day Chaos Marines.

These guys fled to the Eye 10,000 years ago, but in their terms have only been there a hundred or so years, meaning their gene seed is that much more potent, albeit corrupted by the warp.

All of the Horus Heresy novels allude to the fact that Heresy era Marines were faster, stronger and more potent than moden day Marines.

I'm not saying they will have different stat lines, and hate to keep using Grey Knights as an example but a stat line doesn't have to be drastically changed to make something more potent. Just look at Space Wolves or Grey Knights.

My understanding is that Chaos Legionnaires will be as distinct from the Chaos Marines in the CSM Codex as Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Vanilla Marines are.

StraightSilver wrote:

All of the Horus Heresy novels allude to the fact that Heresy era Marines were faster, stronger and more potent than moden day Marines.

Do they really? I'm not so sure about that...

StraightSilver wrote:
My understanding is that Chaos Legionnaires will be as distinct from the Chaos Marines in the CSM Codex as Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Vanilla Marines are.

I hope this is the case - I really do!

StraightSilver wrote:Ok, from a fluff background there are lots of reasons why Legionnaires would be quite a lot harder than 40K Space Marines, or current Chaos Space Marines.

The Legionnaires who fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy were mostly first and second generation post-humans, created directly from their Primarch's Gene Seed 10,000 years before any other type of Marine.

Their gene seed therefore would have been much purer and wouldn't have degraded in the same way that modern (40K) Marines Gene Seed has.

The majority of 40K marines have lost the use of at least one of their gene seed impants.

For example very few Marines can still use the Betcher's Gland.

ZOMG!! I hear that Chaos Marines also have 12" long progenoid glands and shoot fireballs from their arse! (ok... that last one might actually be true for slaneesh sorcerers and not just a Braveheart joke). Lets not go overboard in glorifying HH marines compared to current loyalists. For the record, most loyalist marines are from Ultramarine stock and Rowboat's boys don't have any problems with Betcher's Glands. Dorn's boys may have that problem but it certainly didn't carry over to anything close (1 - very few) % of current marines.

Legion marines may have closer to factory standard geneseed (assuming it hasn't been corrupted by the warp which is a pretty big assumption) but their true benefit should lie in their AVERAGE higher level of skill and customization without the Codex Astartes limiting their choices. While only 1 in 10 loyalist marine companies (the 1st) have an average of two or three centuries of combat experience, every legion company that is still fully composed of HH marines should have that. While their equipment may be in disrepair and the company understrength, they should also have the greater arsenals typical of HH marine forces as well as the customization inherent to having a looser command structure as raiders. I think the original 3rd edition rules did it best in that regard and would be a good starting point for legion marines in the next one. Give them 2 specials or 1 special + 1 heavy right off the bat at 5 instead of reserving something until unit size 10... understrength squads still need to cover the same basic combat tactics and roles as full strength ones. Also, the old benefit of giving them a single "veteran" ability (now called a USR) would be a cool and fluffy upgrade. Combined with the ability to take various marks of chaos, this would give you the variety that people seem to be craving as well as powerful combos that succeed at the role you choose for them. Lol, legionairres don't need to have Abaddon statlines and abilities to make them special.

warboss wrote:

StraightSilver wrote:Ok, from a fluff background there are lots of reasons why Legionnaires would be quite a lot harder than 40K Space Marines, or current Chaos Space Marines.

The Legionnaires who fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy were mostly first and second generation post-humans, created directly from their Primarch's Gene Seed 10,000 years before any other type of Marine.

Their gene seed therefore would have been much purer and wouldn't have degraded in the same way that modern (40K) Marines Gene Seed has.

The majority of 40K marines have lost the use of at least one of their gene seed impants.

For example very few Marines can still use the Betcher's Gland.

ZOMG!! I hear that Chaos Marines also have 12" long progenoid glands and shoot fireballs from their arse! (ok... that last one might actually be true for slaneesh sorcerers and not just a Braveheart joke). Lets not go overboard in glorifying HH marines compared to current loyalists. For the record, most loyalist marines are from Ultramarine stock and Rowboat's boys don't have any problems with Betcher's Glands. Dorn's boys may have that problem but it certainly didn't carry over to anything close (1 - very few) % of current marines.

The entirety of the Black Templar chapter a small percent is it?

I'd be interested to see if/how you can mix legions. If it's not possible it'd be very disappointing, perhaps Iron Warriors/World Eaters because of all the chaos gods, Iron Warriors have a greater tendancy to fall to khorne than any other deity (as per old fluff). The ability to form the old alliances would be awesome (like the Isstvan Drop Site Massacre force etc).

I'm wondering if you'll be able to mix World Eaters and Emperor's Children. Ya know ... just because ...

Actually due to attrition and lack of resupply most Chaos marines spend the majority of their time slaughtering defenseless civilians and (sometimes) PDF until the imperial space marines show up and chase them away. The inevitable degredation in skills and equipment that results will be reflected on the tabletop by their 4+ save, WS 3 and Ld 7. They will also cost 20 pts each to reflect their dwindling numbers.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Actually due to attrition and lack of resupply most Chaos marines spend the majority of their time slaughtering defenseless civilians and (sometimes) PDF until the imperial space marines show up and chase them away. The inevitable degredation in skills and equipment that results will be reflected on the tabletop by their 4+ save, WS 3 and Ld 7. They will also cost 20 pts each to reflect their dwindling numbers.

Whoah! Get outta here with your realistic rules! We want uber chaos marines with lotta spiky bitz.

Pyriel- wrote:

It's like that old fluff bit about Chaos Terminater armour. Loyalists are given terminator armour for their great achievements and earning the respect of the chapter. If your a CSM terminator, you earned your armour by killing the last guy who wore it. (And probably well he was wearing it to boot!)

At least that is how I understand the fluff, If someone wants to correct me.

I agree but since nowhere on the tabletop are the drawbacks of killing your way up and consequently defending your position from backstabbing, represented then nowhere should the advantages of being a little more tougher be represented either.

You see while the loyal marine can cover in the ditch with his buddies each one covering anothers back and teamworking away to victory the chaos marine has to constantly watch his back in the same ditch or else his buddy will kill him any time to get to take over his armour. Hardly any teamworking or helping each others forward. But as the drawbacks are nowhere to be seen so shouldnt the advantages.

Well. Sept. you know. Loyalists DO have rules that represent their Team Work and "covering anothers back". It's called Combat Tactics and They Shall Know no Fear.

If their really isn't any difference between a CSM and loyalist then why don't I get thows rules?


The point I was trying to get at is that the CSM should get SOMETHING alittle extra to represent their individual martial prowess they need to stay alive. The same way Loyalists have thows rules that represent their team work and brotherhood. Right now CSM get NOTHING, and are apparently not nearly as skilled as thier loyalist counter-parts.

This bonus dosen't need to be a stat-line boost. Sometimes appropriate special rules are a better choice then just out right buffing the statline. But CSM should at-least get SOMETHING.

Realistic rules have no place in 40k as every single weapon would need to be overhauled and recosted. The average SM and CSM would need to have their points increased far beyond 20pts (if we’re to emphasise both rarity and their elite level), with GK probably having their point cost doubled. Special characters would probably have to be doubled as well.

Moral of the story: realistic rules don’t exist in 40k (and to a lesser extent, fluffy rules as well).

If they made models cost more points they'd sell less.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm wondering if you'll be able to mix World Eaters and Emperor's Children. Ya know ... just because ...

Oh by Khorne's blood chaked beard i hope not...

It's allready hard for me, when in a tournament i see a CSM player with 2 Lash Princes/Lords AND Zerkers squads in the same army...

I allready want to roundhouse kick his ass into Orbit, so if it was one of the new things of the new Dex...i think i would chop a lot of heads...

Slayer le boucher wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm wondering if you'll be able to mix World Eaters and Emperor's Children. Ya know ... just because ...

Oh by Khorne's blood chaked beard i hope not...

It's allready hard for me, when in a tournament i see a CSM player with 2 Lash Princes/Lords AND Zerkers squads in the same army...

I allready want to roundhouse kick his ass into Orbit, so if it was one of the new things of the new Dex...i think i would chop a lot of heads...

In all honesty I would rather see something half way between what we have now, and 3.5.

Like. You can take a Slaanesh prince and Zerker's in the same list. But reward players for playing "fluffy lists" or taking "fluffy options". (Encourage people to play fluffy Emperor's children or fluff World Eaters for example.)

Ehsteve wrote:

warboss wrote: For the record, most loyalist marines are from Ultramarine stock and Rowboat's boys don't have any problems with Betcher's Glands. Dorn's boys may have that problem but it certainly didn't carry over to anything close (1 - very few) % of current marines.

The entirety of the Black Templar chapter a small percent is it?

Mathematically, absolutely. 1000 chapters x 1000 marines/chapter = 1,000,000 marines according to the simplified fluff. The BTs make up less than one tenth of one percent even at their over-codex size. Add in the rest of Dorn's boys and you've still got minority of marines.

Ok, from a fluff background there are lots of reasons why Legionnaires would be quite a lot harder than 40K Space Marines, or current Chaos Space Marines.

The Legionnaires who fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy were mostly first and second generation post-humans, created directly from their Primarch's Gene Seed 10,000 years before any other type of Marine.

Their gene seed therefore would have been much purer and wouldn't have degraded in the same way that modern (40K) Marines Gene Seed has.

The majority of 40K marines have lost the use of at least one of their gene seed impants.

For example very few Marines can still use the Betcher's Gland.

Nope, the marines in the eye have severe problems with mutation and geneseed degrading due to you know, chaos warping things. Thus all the desperate hunting for purer loyalist geneseed banks.

Well. Sept. you know. Loyalists DO have rules that represent their Team Work and "covering anothers back". It's called Combat Tactics and They Shall Know no Fear.

If their really isn't any difference between a CSM and loyalist then why don't I get thows rules?


The point I was trying to get at is that the CSM should get SOMETHING alittle extra to represent their individual martial prowess they need to stay alive. The same way Loyalists have thows rules that represent their team work and brotherhood. Right now CSM get NOTHING, and are apparently not nearly as skilled as thier loyalist counter-parts.

What are you talking about? Course they do, first of all they get more attacks, two assault weapons and they get to take marks giving them inv saves, +1T etc etc.

I agree however that ATSKNF and combat tactics are representing the loyalists "loyalty" to one another but if you want even better CSM then they are now with the above options then by all means do represent their infighting and backstabbing too.

How about every time the squad takes a Ld the champion takes an armour save to represent someone else trying to put a knife in his back to get that nice wargear and rank you know
Should the champion pass his save a random squad member is removed as a casualty to represent a failed attempt at taking command.
Here is your drawback, you cant just eat the cake and still have it.

Actually due to attrition and lack of resupply most Chaos marines spend the majority of their time slaughtering defenseless civilians and (sometimes) PDF until the imperial space marines show up and chase them away. The inevitable degredation in skills and equipment that results will be reflected on the tabletop by their 4+ save, WS 3 and Ld 7. They will also cost 20 pts each to reflect their dwindling numbers.

Hehe, yeah, constantly raiding lone PDF guarded outposts and derelict merchantmen hones their skills so much

While only 1 in 10 loyalist marine companies (the 1st) have an average of two or three centuries of combat experience, every legion company that is still fully composed of HH marines should have that.

Thing is that after X amount of years in the warp (time flows differently there) there are no longer any legions wholly consisting of pre heresy marines. They constantly whittle down by war and attrition and are replaced with more and more "new" recruits. Read Storm of Iron, only a handful were "real" pre heresy badasses, the rest were factory made assembly band traitor marines, just meatgrinded away to see who survived and would earn the real honour of calling themselves (new) Iron Warriors.

Do you believe that IF really 10 000 true years passed for those legion marines and they are still supposed to be made up from originals while loyal SM chapters have no one left due to attrition and war?
Hell no, like ADB wrote, time moves differently over there, the ones who are originals are what the loyalists would call hard bitten old first company veterans, kind of like very experienced wolf guards but most are "new" just like with loyalist chapters.

But I agree, the ones in the army/codex representing the old original marines should get something extra, fortunately there are marks and such that you can give your CSM squads to make them stand above normal squads and if we throw in some extra wargear shenanigans really fun options could be made without things costing 50p per model and GW still selling a volume.

Another section of the CMS are cult squads dedicated to their gods, those do have better stats and abilities to represent that, what more do you want?

Then you have cheaper "normal" or "new" CSM squads that should be just as plain as regular tactical marines with something extra thrown in to offset ATSKNF and combat squads..

No matter what rules should be there to prevent mixing of different cults and thus mangling fluff. I dont ever want to see khorne berzerkers being led by a tzench sorc and his 1ksons bodyguard nor do I want to see plague marines being supported by emp children. That is just taking all the best from each world with no penalties in return.


I never understood why some people keep insisting all chaos marines are 10 000 year old original monsters that shoot death rays from their eyes.
I havent seen any BL novel that supports this nor it is logical.

Pyriel- wrote:
What are you talking about? Course they do, first of all they get more attacks, two assault weapons and they get to take marks giving them inv saves, +1T etc etc.

I agree however that ATSKNF and combat tactics are representing the loyalists "loyalty" to one another but if you want even better CSM then they are now with the above options then by all means do represent their infighting and backstabbing too.

Space Wolves and Bloodangles have bassic troops that have a extra CCW and ATSKNF..... hell. Space wolves alot of times have slightly cheaper squads then us that also have counter-charge!

Also Chaos dosen't have marks. They got rid of them in the current book. Now I have guys who forget what god they worship when the guy with the flag dies. yay?

Not to mention most of the icons are not worth their points. Cept maby if your a nurgle player. But even then that's quite a chunk of points to pay just for a T(4)5 or even a ++6sv that you can lose half way threw the game. Thier is a reason why you always buy Icon of Chaos Glory. You need that LD re-roll so you unit 200+ point squad of CSM don't get swept by a single bad round of CC...

How about every time the squad takes a Ld the champion takes an armour save to represent someone else trying to put a knife in his back to get that nice wargear and rank you know

Also CSM aren't at Skaven level of back stabbing...

Here is your drawback, you cant just eat the cake and still have it.

Unless I play Codex:SM, Blood Angles, or Space Wolves? Your arguement is bassicly "Chaos should suck because they aren't loyalists and therefore lost everything that makes loyalists good. But then in return they get nothing to replace what they lost, because chaos sux."


Don't get me wrong. Chaos shouldn't get ATSKNF and combat tactics. They shouldn't even get it by another name! But they should get SOMETHING. Not just a half hearted attempt, that then gets given to loyalists anyway...

=/

A Extra CCW dosen't even equal the effects of ATSKNF let alone combat tactics. And in all honesty a stat bonus alone isn't going to achieve that.

Thow the point I was trying to make earlier was that Chaos Termies and chosen should probably be WS5, instead of WS4 like they are now. I'm not sujesting anything that whould break the game here. Heck. I completly agree with you that stat wise a bassic CSM would be the same stats as a loyalist.

I really don't get why your trying so hard to argue with me, and in all honesty I still think your misunderstanding my posts. I hope I'm being more clear now.