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Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






I've been following this on the Darkstone forums and one of the backers recently spoke to the Spanish press.

The TL DR bit - GZ are €67,000 in debt and are looking for more financing. They are being evicted from their warehouse in Seville on February 1st as they have outstanding rents of €18,000. They are trying to make 16,000 copies 6,000 owed to backers and retailers fronted the money for 10,000 additional units that puts individual backers even further down the list of "creditors". Apparently it's the dice that's holding up the project, the manufacturer claims they're done but Dionisio isn't happy with them and has rejected them a few times now.




Basic gist of the article as posted on th BGG thread

"They paid four years ago for a boardgame that they haven't received yet.[...] 50 people have already filed a legal complaint and many more are looking forward to do the same."

They interview a backer (Miguel) who says that "we paid 110€, after some years we were asked to pay shipping costs, we all paid shipping, and we're still waiting for the game"

The journalists don't mention the lack of Hasbro licensing, they directly assume GameZone was trying to publish the good old HeroQuest, they even show images from the old Hasbro commercial from the 80s.

Miguel explains how GameZone bought new machines without knowledge of how to use them and lost much material to miscasts.

"The owner of the company, located in Seville, does not answer any calls, but has still the game on preorder on the internet, so more people might have bought it. They worry that he's delaying everything in order for the case to prescribe."


and a newspaper article: (run through Google translate) - very well written and researched piece I learned some new stuff from this and it's a good summary of events and issues for anyone unfamiliar with this project.

http://www.diariosur.es/sociedad/heroquest-aniversario-crowdfunding-20180119174942-nt.html

Heroquest 25 Anniversary', the 'crowdfunding' of the board game that left five thousand people

With an initial departure date scheduled for December 2014 and a collection of 680,000 euros, the most successful project in Spain to date has not yet been delivered

JON SEDANOMalaga
Sunday, January 21, 2018, 09:47

" Patience, I only ask for patience ", repeats Dionisio Rubio several times during the interview of more than two hours offered to this medium. But the reality is that many patrons are already tired of waiting since in February 2014 the 'crowdfunding' of the board game 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' achieved a collection of 680,037 euros. Its creator, under the brand name Gamezone, needed a financing of 58,000 euros for the project to see the light. The nostalgia and promises of numerous extra material made the figure reach 1100% of what was required. Now, with several demands on the table , many patrons do not know what has happened to the project. But to understand the current situation well, we must go back to 1989 .

At the end of the 80s, the company MB and Games Workshop launched the board game 'Heroquest' . In it, the essence of classic RPGs, such as 'Dragons and Dungeons', was transferred to the board. The success was resounding . Soon, many young people spent their evenings throwing dice and fighting enemies in what has already become a classic, to the point of paying large sums of money for him now. The years passed and the game only obtained a second edition and expansions published at the beginning of the 1990s. For this reason, the Gamezone company based in Seville , which has been producing miniatures since 2000, decided to launch a patronage campaign to revive it. "There was a rumble in the net , and as nobody was thrown, we decided to do it ", explains Dionisio Rubio.


The rights, an unexpected play
"I was surprised to see that the rights to the 'Heroquest' brand in Spain were in the hands of a private individual, not Hasbro." After taking them and contacting the parent company, he explains that they realized they could publish the game in Europe, but to do it in the US they had to negotiate with the one who had them in that country. "I thought the hard part was going to be dealing with Hasbro, but it was the easiest thing to do. It was a long process, but it paid off. The complicated thing was to negotiate with the possessor of rights in the US, who asked us for conditions that we could not face. In fact, here I realized why a new version of the game has not come out: it is difficult for Hasbro to want to do it when he can not publish it in his country of origin ".

With all this, they ventured to launch it on the crowdfunding platform par excellence , which is based in Canada, Kickstarter . On November 25, 2013, the 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' campaign was launched for the first time and in just one day it exceeded 400% of the necessary funding . But soon everything would be darkened. Three days later, Kickstarter suspended the project in a precautionary manner due to an intellectual property dispute. The holder of the rights in the USA had sent a letter to the platformexplaining that he owned the brand in his country and that in August "he had explicitly denied Gamezone permission to publish it there", since he had intended to create one based on the license. According to Rubio, when he saw that they were not going to reach any agreement, he decided to abandon the project and go to a Spanish platform , more specifically to Verkami .


"Verkami volunteered and collected information for a week knowing that we were going to go to her. They saw that there was no legal problem and launched the project on December 8, "but four hours later, the platform canceled it. "It was due to pressure from the community. From day one we generated a lot of interest and a lot of people started a boycott campaign because they did not like the idea of ​​playing the game. "

Send us the call for help
On December 23, 2013, "Heroquest 25 Anniversary" was reborn , although with less force than on the first occasion. Lánzanos was the platform that decided to give an opportunity to the project . "We do not accept or reject projects, unless it is something crazy, are the patrons themselves who choose whether they are born or not with their shares," says Gregorio Lopez, CEO of the platform. It also adds that they " never received any notice of infringement of rights in an official manner , but only the pressure of some users".

At the end, when the campaign ended on February 13, 2014, the collection obtained stood at 680,037 euros . Of that amount, Lánzanos stayed with 5% (approximately 34,000 euros) and Paypal with 3.5% for each payment. Even so, the platform saved an additional 2.5% "for what was behind the Heroquest" according to its CEO (an amount that Dionisio Rubio has now claimed through a bureaufax). In the words of Rubio, Gamezone received just under 600,000 euros.

The price of the game ranged from 60 to 110 euros . The most expensive option was chosen by more patrons, since with it, in addition to the game itself, many extras would be received. As for the delivery date, 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' would arrive at the houses in December 2014. In the explanation of the project itself, it could be read: "The time window we have to carry out this project is close, but enough for us, with the funds that we can raise with this crowdfunding, we will be able to face the completion of the creative phase and the prototypes , to start producing the components throughout the first half of 2014. We have the knowledge and the tools, but not the capital, we lack the funds that we now request, with the adequate funds 'Heroquest 25th Anniversary' you can see the light in time for the Christmas of 2014. "But it was not so, in fact, its creator now mentions in the interview that" a game like this, in such a short time, has not served anyone. "

The castle in the air begins to collapse
Information about the state of the game began to diminish, something that usually happens in most projects. But in this case, they went from being daily to publishing only six more until the supposed delivery date, which already vanished in November under an update published on its website, Heroquestclassic.es. "People wrote and responded almost immediately during the campaign, sold the idea of ​​constant updates, every two or three weeks and was receiving the money and not knowing anything about the issue, " recalls Angel Aguilar, who founded in June of that same year the Facebook group ' Quiero mi Heroquest 25 Aniversario ', which currently has 3,200 users.

In February 2015, a new update announced the beginning of the reservation period on its website, through which the base game could be purchased without the additional extras. The distributor of Germany and E-Minis , which is the one in Spain, took several thousand units, of which they also advanced part of the money. In total, there would be 6,000 games for patrons and 10,000 for commercial sales. The rumors began to emerge in the network: "Dionisio had spent all the budget on machinery and had no more to continuethe project". But Rubio responds to this accusation: "That rumor is nonsense. Just click on the network to see that the cost of the six machines we bought to reinforce the one we had is absurd compared to the budget. What we did was to mechanize our workshop to be able to produce both the content of the patrons and the one we would take to the stores ".


So it was. Photographs published by those who approached the old workshop they had in Seville demonstrate the manufacture of miniatures. According to Dionisio, around one million units. But how is it possible that what was done in less than a year, three years after that date has not yet been delivered? Especially taking into account that the emails of the patrons who requested the return of the contribution in 2015, Gamezone answered with a refusal "due to the status of the project, almost completed." Rubio's explanation is that it was because of a restart of the project.

As they had already failed on the initial date, they decided to take the project more calmly to improve some components that did not have the quality they were looking for in a hurry. According to its creator, "the final product was going to be watched with a magnifying glass" and therefore all the components had to be as perfect as possible. For E-Minis, the problem of the 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' has been "a bad planning for wanting to offer so many things at such a low price and of such good quality" . "We've seen it, that's why we always tell people to leave them alone so they can continue with the project," adds the distributor, who also specifies that today, they continue to receive cancellations and new reservations every day.

Anyway, the game still did not arrive and the trickle of updates caused a group of sponsors to send a bureaufax requesting information about the real state of the project in December 2015.

The dream turns into a nightmare
"Lánzanos tried to get rid of the dead man. His idea in principle was to help, but he did it all in a very 'light' way and he stayed in the water of booze. Right now there is the promise in time that they are going to do something. They said to create an association to move the legal issue but had to put money, "adds Aguilar.

Indeed, Lánzanos sent a statement to all the patrons, only two years later, in April 2016 . In this email they apologized for their silence and added that they would head the decision that the patrons would make. A survey was conducted and the vast majority chose to request information. The second burofax, now on behalf of the platform requesting information about the real state, reached Dionisio. But I did not succeed. In the last communication sent by Lánzanos, in July 2016, it was explained to the patrons that his lawyer was preparing a complaint. Complaint that never came to court .

"We have not filed the complaint because the lawyers advised us not to do it , because we were going to lose it. They are the patrons who have to denounce, not us. They have complied with us because we charge our share of the income, "explains Gregorio López, who adds that" it may sound selfish not wanting to move the hornet's nest, but every time he did it, they called 200 people over the phone. "

The CEO explains: "There is no jurisprudence, the most similar is that of ticket sales companies . By judicial means Dionisio can be defended, but by the civil way the law of the trade allows to request the money if the game does not leave or it does not look like the promised thing. In 'crowdfunding' there is talk of investing in an idea , of making someone's dream come true, even if VAT is paid, it is an investment . They consider us as an 'online' store that delivers a product expanded over time. "

The average of failed patronage is around 10%, according to López, but "since most projects are small and invest in friends and family, nothing happens". It also clarifies that they are a platform to connect creators with patrons , but that beyond that, they have no responsibility. The lawyer Chema Valdivia explains that Law 5/2015 for the promotion of business financing, which includes a regulation on investment sponsorship, does not include crowdfunding: "Its scope refers to financing in exchange for a monetary return, not in exchange for a delivery of movable property, as in this case a game. Some argue that it is a risk, such as a work of art or a stock market investment, but it is more like a sale to put a product on sale. The problem, in addition to the law, is that in Spain there are no precedents . "

A new rumor began to spread through the network: "'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' was a scam, it would never come out . " But the photos of the updates and the opinions of the patrons and distributors who had gone to the store said otherwise. The miniatures existed and the state of the game seemed to be advanced, but it still did not arrive. "Whether or not a scam has to be decided by a judge, but there must be fraud in order to have a scam. Has Dionisio intended to defraud patrons? It is very difficult to know . You have to see what the money has been spent on, whether it was in machinery or in a Mercedes, and if everything is due to mismanagement or an intention to cheat, "explains Valdivia.

Slash and new text
The user Jul SG, tired of waiting, presented on September 27, 2016 a verbal trial suit against Dionisio Rubio , Gamezone and Ludofilia SL, the latter a new company that the creator established two months after concluding the campaign. "They did not offer any information and that angered me. They have given false hopes and have played with the illusion and nostalgia for a product that many wanted. In the bases they established that the conditions of the project were going to be fulfilled, but they have not done it. I tried it by mail, OCU and in the end, judicial means ", explains the patron. The ruling was resolved in favor of the user and forced Dionisio Rubio to have to deliver the game in six months or return the money , the latter being what happened.

From that moment, Jul SG became champion of the patrons for winning a court ruling and getting the money . "I have continued to help because it is only fair. People say that the subject is very complicated or that it will cost more than the product to claim, but it is not true: investigate, worry about advising and you will see that it is not so. I do not position myself in favor of getting the money or waiting for the game, I am in the middle ground. As I investigated the subject for myself and I see people very lost, I help them by solving doubts and explaining what steps they have to follow, with examples of the writings to be presented. "

But Jul SG indicates that during the process modifications have been made in the bases of both : "Lánzanos explained in its conditions that if a project did not reach the patrons, they 'would be forced to intervene', but after starting the problems erased that part, in addition to a variation of 110 euros in the collection. Dionisio Rubio sold the product as Gamezone, although he did it under his NIF, but when he created Ludofilia SL and started to manage through it Heroquest, judicially he had to sue the three names to avoid mistakes ".

The CEO of Lánzanos responds to this statement by saying that the concept of 'intervening' is very ambiguous and that they modified the bases simply by updating themselves . Dionisio Rubio points out that the creation of Ludofilia SL does not interfere with the game, although in the copyright of the website heroquestclassic.com one can read "Ludofilia SL 2013 - 2016". The year 2013 would encompass the 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' campaign, but on that date the limited company had not yet been set up. In addition, according to Jul SG, some patrons received from Rubio a reply to his claim arguing that the sentence should go against Ludofilia SL, not against him.

With a new official delivery date, March 2017, a rhythm of constant updates during 2016 and the presentation of the game during the Expocómic event in Madrid that took place at the end of 2016 , it was demonstrated that the project was continuing. Of course, many patrons complained that the quality of some components, such as letters, was not what was expected. But March passed and the game did not arrive.

It is not a question of accounts, but of dice
If to date two lawsuits had been filed by judicial means, in 2017, with the facilities that SG SG contributed, the number exceeded 30. The Francisco García from Malaga is one of those affected who filed a claim in July of that year: " I spent about 150 euros. I still have not recovered the money for an error in the courts, but I'm waiting for them to call me when it's resolved. After the experience I have the feeling that they are laughing at me and that Dionisio can do and undo what he wants . Another responsible has also been Lánzanos, who has not moved a finger for the patrons, has made a mere intermediary and over came to ask for money to sue after raising a significant amount.

The rumor that Dionisio had spent all the money from the project for bad management and that he no longer had more liquidity to face the costs of logistics and shipping was gaining more and more strength. Especially when the network showed alleged accounts reports Ludofilia SL company , where you could see that it had a deficit of 67,000 euros . Also, an eviction order from his old warehouse in Seville cited for February 12, 2018 for a non-payment of 18,000 euros, did not help to silence them either.


" We have spent more money than we got , because the production is not only for the 4,500 games of the patrons, plus the 1,500 that we add later, but for the 16,000 that we will create in total. From the minute one that we saw that figure we raised a higher production and look for new financing, "explains Dionisio in an interview published on its website .

But what makes the project, which was to have finally come out in March 2017, still not arrive? Dice . As Dionisio explains, "if an element is missing and it is fundamental, it can not be sent, either the die or the top of the box". It adds that it is a technical problem, so "can not be solved with money, or with time, because money has been paid what had to be paid and time has been spent that had to be thrown, and even that is not solved, can not be sent ".

According to the Riera company from Alicante, responsible for producing that material, as well as the rest of the plastic components of the game, the technical problems have already been solved: "Everything that used to be cardboard was made of plastic. We have already packaged and shipped almost 80% of the production to Seville. From a year ago until now we have made a trial and error process with the dice. We have created everything from nothing and although technical problems arose, we have already solved them. Dionisio, they will say what they will say, but he is a very perfectionist man and if he has to throw a product four or five times back because he is not convinced by the finish, it does. It is a project that grew a lot in a short time. And I hope it does not take much longer. It remains to finish producing some small piece of last minute, but the final product will be spectacular and will enchant the public. "

The absence of these pieces, which from Riera confirm that they are already paid , also makes it necessary to produce everything concerning paper: "With printing there is no problem, it is simply a matter of choreography. Everything is printed when all the components are present, because it is a material sensitive to humidity and spoiling. It is also something that takes a lot. A space that neither I nor have the printer, who has a weekly production in which he prints and sends ".

Once everything is in Seville, the product will be packaged and sent, although that will be handled by another company , because according to Rubio "will go faster, more organized and without the stress they have".

Will the 'Heroquest 25th Anniversary' ever come to the patrons?
With all the cards on the table, or better said miniatures, will the 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' finally shine? Its creator, the distributor and some patrons are clear that yes , although they do not know when exactly; others, on the other hand, believe that it will never come out, among which is the own Lánzanos. Jul SG, who has done an exhaustive follow-up of the project thinks about it: "Based on the statement of accounts, it is remotely possible. They are trying it despite having a negative balance higher than 60,000 euros, but you need people to distribute it, to send it, etc. ".

From the company Riera they affirm categorically that 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' is going to come out and explain that the problems have come about due to their great scope, since "Gamezone competes with multinationals". Dionisio Rubio exemplifies what takes time on the network with a traffic jam on the road : "You are standing with the car in a caravan and instead of waiting you start whistling or shouting". Meanwhile, he repeats that "he only asks for patience" .

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/01/21 12:42:29


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

That article was very fair, and a good explanation.

As for the dice, feth the dice, ship now and use d8 as a stopgap then get them later. Or at least offer that option to the impatient.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Absolutely agree... I mean, how wrong can they be?

Unless they are somehow completely the wrong shape or face number, or accidentally have the wrong numbers printed on them, surely could just let them go?

Rather than face not selling any at all.

Once again thanks for bringing this news here DaveC, appreciated.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
Excellent discussion forum & information collection for Epic and other small scale miniatures: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/index.php

 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






Wrong/inconsistent colours apparently everything scrapped so that the HQ side of the die could be redone in green

more information from Darkstone forums re the dice: https://www.darkstone.es/index.php?topic=179.msg277749#msg277749

-Each game has 8 dice (this was confirmed by Urok on the HQ25 Arouk Telegram), I estimated 8 dice x 16,000 copies = 128,000 dice. However, the number of dice made was around 300,000.
-They were still having discouloring issues, but the error affected only some copies, not all of them, so the cause was difficult to pinpoint. Also it forced them to trash big dice packs to avoid the risk of containing some defective dice.
-He defined Dionisio as a "perfectionist", with the certainty of a person who does not think about due dates or milestones or has no respect for deadlines. He just cared for Dionisio's demands and he responsably defended that his work had to be delivered in a perfect state.
-He had six people assigned exclusively for this task, wanting to finish in september to enjoy some vacation.
-He had received some payment for a deliver that included scenography. The deliver of dice still hadn't happened.
-Dionisio told him "there's no rush, there's no rush". I remind you this was in July 2017.
-He's company is specialist in shoemaking, but they also work with any injected plastic products and have experience with boardgaming components in an international (European) level.
-After all this journey, they won't get any benefit from all invested time, staff, materials... Costs = benefits. From July to November, when a person made public in twitter the second image I'm attaching... The only substantial change with dice was the green colored dye in the HQ side (instead of sharing the black color of the rest of the sides of the die). This was another decision by the perfectionist Dionisio that delayed all dice production until now (January 2018) and keeps adding months by asking us to be patient.
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Feth. The. Dice.

We can even have them delivered. Fething ship and let those with defective dice raise a customer service issue. As we are forwarned that dice quality may vary.
It would earn Gamezone a lot of forgiveness, and buy time for a perfectionist approach later.

If dice colouring means so much for the game, let gamers colour them. Some of the miniatures are multi material, resin with metal sword arms etc, because that was how best to make the game components. I must say this for Dionisio, when it comes to said components his artistic eye has a lot of merit, I have seen sample miniatures by request and an VERY impressed with the quality of pose and sculpt. This can still all be worth it.
Think on this. A resin character on a clear plastic base with a metal sword is asking for a paint job, even for basicplay. These are not single models in coloured plastic according to role as would be needed for the game to be playable straight from the box.

It would pay Dionisio to absorb that logic and move to its logical conclusion. The entire game needs painting, so why not the dice. It some of the sides are written in the rules as in green, we can ink in the symbols in green. As dice symbols are recessed and often painted anyway there is no issue with this in terms of maintaining the integrity of the die.

If a Spanish speaking Dakka member agrees with this point and it has not yet been made, can they forward it on my/our behalf.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/26 15:30:40


n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in gb
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






UK

Well said, that man.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




"I was surprised to see that the rights to the 'Heroquest' brand in Spain were in the hands of a private individual, not Hasbro." After taking them and contacting the parent company, he explains that they realized they could publish the game in Europe, but to do it in the US they had to negotiate with the one who had them in that country. "I thought the hard part was going to be dealing with Hasbro, but it was the easiest thing to do. It was a long process, but it paid off.


It was easy in the sense that Dionisio is lying. He said that he contacted Hasbro's Ibana (sp) (or some Spanish or international branch of Hasbro) but produced no written document saying that he actually had permission.

According to Rubio, when he saw that they were not going to reach any agreement


GZ and Moon Design did not reach an agreement because GZ could not produce written documentation saying they had permission from Hasbro.

a lot of people started a boycott campaign because they did not like the idea of ​​playing the game.


This is wrong. BGG did not like the idea of creating a game without permission.

We have the knowledge and the tools, but not the capital


GZ needed to buy resin spincasters and, since it was only Dionisio, they didn't have the workers who knew how to use them. The workers, btw, are owed 18K Euros.

But what makes the project, which was to have finally come out in March 2017, still not arrive? Dice .


Green dice???

-He defined Dionisio as a "perfectionist", with the certainty of a person who does not think about due dates or milestones or has no respect for deadlines.


In other words, a bad project manager. More from Aitor's post on BGG: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1517279/rumors-news-and-leaks-darkstone-forums/page/14

Jul SG: "1st: In June 2017, I suggested to Dionisio by letter that both of us knew that he had quite a big debt of 1,920€, enough reason for him to move into the new workshop on the Arte Sacro business park. I mentioned this in the (now defunct) Telegram chat devoted to HQ25A of the Aurok Community. Urok asked Dionisio about this and he replied that "he had no f***ing idea".

Dem dice. 128K needed, 300K made, all rejected.

"The only substantial change with dice was the green colored dye in the HQ side (instead of sharing the black color of the rest of the sides of the die). This was another decision by the perfectionist Dionisio that delayed all dice production until now (January 2018) and keeps adding months by asking us to be patient."

Spoiler:


This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2018/01/29 08:47:24


"And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

ced1106 wrote:
"I was surprised to see that the rights to the 'Heroquest' brand in Spain were in the hands of a private individual, not Hasbro." After taking them and contacting the parent company, he explains that they realized they could publish the game in Europe, but to do it in the US they had to negotiate with the one who had them in that country. "I thought the hard part was going to be dealing with Hasbro, but it was the easiest thing to do. It was a long process, but it paid off.


It was easy in the sense that Dionisio is lying. He said that he contacted Hasbro's Ibana (sp) (or some Spanish or international branch of Hasbro) but produced no written document saying that he actually had permission.


You don't know that. Documentation in business is often confidential, and not to be disclosed to third parties. Also Hasbro is very big Hasbro corporate might not have approved of local decisions in Spain or possibly lack of action that resulting in Gamezone getting the trademark in Spain.

ced1106 wrote:

According to Rubio, when he saw that they were not going to reach any agreement


GZ and Moon Design did not reach an agreement because GZ could not produce written documentation saying they had permission from Hasbro.


Mood Design were not interested in starting any dialogue until they received documentation from Hasbro. Slight but significant difference.

ced1106 wrote:

a lot of people started a boycott campaign because they did not like the idea of ​​playing the game.


This is wrong. BGG did not like the idea of creating a game without permission.


9th Age.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






Worth keeping in mind that everything I posted is run through Google translate from the original Spanish so in a few parts the translation is going to be overly literal and not what Was intended in the original Spanish (remember the “battery” translation that caused confusion). A boycott because people didn’t like playing the game looks like a literal translation rather than what was actually intended.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/29 11:46:24


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Understood that.

However it is fair to defend Gamezone against accusations of deception. Despite evidence provided to the contrary, and lack of challenge to that evidence, some people are still calling out Gamezone as fraudulent as opposed to mismanaged.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






Definitely mismanaged at this point, there is some physical product to show for the money invested. I honestly still think Dionisio wants to deliver this game but this perfectionism has to stop at some point you have to say that's it and send it, the dice issue is a prime example there was nothing wrong with black print on the HQ side it doesn't need green print. The hexagonal dice were a bad choice to begin with but I guess he wanted them so as to say "nope nothing like the original dice, my design, not copying anyone, look different dice different game, no copyright issues here".

The mounting debts and backer claims might well sink this before anything else.

Shipping is another issue that hasn't been addressed where is the money for that going to come from? Backers money is spent, retailers money is spent. I doubt most backers will want to put their hands in their pockets for more shipping after all the delays. If it gets to that point will they do another Prodos and only ship after they have raised funds from retail sales or require you to purchase something from the store in order to get your pledge tacked on. I'm pretty sure backers are due store credit for the original shipping amount paid as it is.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Orlanth wrote:
Mood Design were not interested in starting any dialogue until they received documentation from Hasbro. Slight but significant difference.


I'm calling mismanagement, and here's MD's statement. Of the KS projects I've followed, only the Ice Age Miniatures was a scam.
http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55475-adw-ice-age-miniatures-kickstarter/
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/598995.page

Hello all,

We want to give some background on the dispute surrounding Gamezone’s Kickstarter campaign to launch a remake of the hybrid board game/roleplaying game originally published by Milton Bradley called “Heroquest”.

Last week, Moon Design petitioned Kickstarter to remove the crowdfunding campaign for Gamezone’s “Heroquest” game. “Heroquest” is the registered US trademark of Moon Design and is the name of our “Heroquest” roleplaying game and assorted products. To allow a game using the same name to be promoted in the United States through Kickstarter without a license would be an unacceptable dilution of our brand and create market confusion to our detriment.

The trademark “Heroquest” is registered by Francis Greg Stafford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Registration Number 4082281) for use in game book manuals. Moon Design Publications LLC has the exclusive license for use of that trademark. For some time now we have been working on creating a board game called “Heroquest” pertaining to the mythology of Glorantha and an updated version of our Heroquest roleplaying game.

The project by Gamezone, a Spanish game company, proposes to remake a role-playing/board game originally produced by Milton Bradley and Games Workshop in 1989. The project calls their game “Heroquest” which is identical to our registered mark and easily confused with it.

Gamezone initially asked us for use of the Heroquest trademark on July 31, 2013. The next day we asked them if they could provide us with a copy of any written agreement with Hasbro to produce a 25th Anniversary Edition of Hasbro’s board game. Gamezone did not provide us with any written confirmation (and as of this date still has not done so). On August 26, 2013, we informed Gamezone by email that we must decline their request.

Despite being explicitly refused permission to use our trademark, Gamezone went ahead and launched this Kickstarter. As a New York State corporation, Kickstarter is subject to US trademark laws and the use of our trademark in the campaign was a violation of those laws.We told Gamezone that they needed to immediately get a licensing agreement from us (which, among other things, would require that they pay us for the rights to the name since it would mean foregoing our opportunity to release our game using our trademark and to compensate us for that lost revenue).

Gamezone did not get back to us within the period we set, and rather than have this end up in litigation (which could also bring in other parties with IP at stake), we asked Kickstarter to suspend the campaign. We then spoke to Gamezone informing them that we had certain non-negotiable demands for any license agreement, among them a statement that Gamezone has explicit permission from Hasbro to make this game based on their IP. Gamezone has assured us that they can get such permission, but until we see confirmation, we cannot responsibly license our trademark to be used in this Kickstarter campaign.

We sympathize with the fans of the Milton Bradley game who enthusiastically supported this project. We strongly support Kickstarter and the revitalization of old games with a loyal following. However, such activities must be done with the consent of the trademark holder and of any other legal owners of the property.

Regards,
Rick Meints
Moon Design Publications

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/30 00:03:54


"And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






Heroquest France has been to visit Gamezone at their new location videos, photos etc. may be incoming soon. Note HQFrance is the french translator and would be very pro GZ and Dionisio so keep that in mind when reading his reports, several things he's reported previously have not happened - now he might have been told them and reported them in good faith but something changed in the interim.

Translated from the original French

Back in French territory, my short stay in Seville was very pleasant,
Dionisio is extremely welcoming and it's really someone special, who, even if he continues to crack the pears, struggles the days like crazy with his team for a product that no one else in the game world will
deliver.HQ25 is indeed a collector and ultra limited edition of the game and it is above all an exceptional craft product by the quantity of material and the final quality of the product for the price that was proposed 4 years ago.
I will explain why and why all this is justified and I maintain that those who sold their pledge will regret it bitterly.

I was able to film almost everything of the new workshop which is, it must be said, huge!
Yes, shoot.
Dionisio has changed his mind about his policy of absolute silence. The time has come to show what has happened in four years.
So expect to see that there is no casino in Las Vegas, no gigantic property or luxury car and this will disappoint some because there are only pallets and pallets of elements everywhere .
Whole lockers, stored and sorted, stacks of items, bags, prototypes of cards, cards, print samples here and there, in short that every cent was invested in the production.

Also know that the local press finally contacted Dionisio and therefore a more professional report will be shot soon. This is a bit normal since it is one of the biggest projects ever funded in Spain and attracts the attention of many.
My surprise was to discover another juxtaposed depot filled with pallets of elements.

I could also manufacture myself (in 30 seconds, yes 30 vi vi vi) figurines HeroQuest metal, see the process (from 3D to the realization of master resin, then the use of molds in 6 machines, mold & drying, sorting phase, quality, piles of usable waste (metal) or unusable (resin). A strong focus on quality has emerged from all this.

of course, The gigantic box of games has a lot of surprises, such as additional cards, extra new figurines, and I was able to see the final design that is kept like Roswell's UFO and discover many things that Dionisio was kept to show until then.
In short, the time to ask myself and work on videos, to see with colleagues for foreign subtitles and I will give you a taste.

In any case, from Isabel through Cristina or even Rafa and his 2 friends I was really pleasantly surprised.
The visit was more than fruitful since I was able to put in place with Rafa, in charge of setting up the final design, many points to deliver the best French version. We exchanged, compared & corrected, shared our points of view, consulted Dionisio live to get his approval and even found innovative ideas to surprise more than one.
It seemed more than necessary to meet after 4 years of collaboration at a distance and to voice the suggestions and comments.

It remains for me to realize the actualization.
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Best news I have heard in a long time, its confirms the half good half bad scenario which was where I thought we were at..

Gamezone is trying its best to get this to us guys. However sadly some things could have been better organised and there is a genuine risk that Gamezone might fold before the project is completed.

I am hopeful and worried in equal measure, so I tend not to things about HQ25 much. If it comes it comes.

But I have been lately thinking about what can be done to help. Anyone from Dakka up for a busman's holiday to Spain for a week? A thought exercise at present as to what we might do, until we find if we can actually help.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in us
Dipping With Wood Stain





San Francisco, CA

At least he's continuing to crack the pears

I play...

Sigh.

Who am I kidding? I only paint these days... 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 pancakeonions wrote:
At least he's continuing to crack the pears


That got lost in translation, which is disturbing when you are posting in English.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in us
Dipping With Wood Stain





San Francisco, CA

I speak french... And cracking pears is not an idiom I'm familiar with...!

I play...

Sigh.

Who am I kidding? I only paint these days... 
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

I'm sure I've read that phrase in the Viz Profanisaurus..

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
Excellent discussion forum & information collection for Epic and other small scale miniatures: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/index.php

 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






Original French version if anyone wants to do a better translation

Spoiler:
De retour en terres françaises, mon court séjour à Séville fut très agréable.
Dionisio est extrêmement accueillant et c'est vraiment quelqu'un de spécial, qui, même s'il continue de s'en prendre plein la poire, se démène tous les jours comme un fou avec son équipe pour un produit que personne d'autre dans l'univers du jeu ne livrera.
HQ25 est bel et bien une édition collector et ultra limitée du jeu et c'est avant tout un produit artisanal d'exception de part la quantité de matériel et la qualité finale du produit pour le prix qui avait été proposé il y a 4 ans.
J'expliquerai pourquoi et en quoi tout cela se justifie et je maintiens que ceux qui ont vendu leur pledge vont le regretter amèrement.

J'ai pu filmer quasiment tout du nouvel atelier qui est, il faut bien le dire, énorme !
Oui, filmer.
Dionisio a changé d'avis sur sa politique du silence absolu. Le temps est donc venu de montrer ce qui s'est passé en 4 ans.
Attendez vous donc à voir qu'il n'y a pas de casino à Las Vegas, pas de propriété gigantesque ou de voiture de luxe et cela va en décevoir certains car il n'y a que des palettes et des palettes d'éléments partout.
Des casiers entiers, rangés stockés et triés, des piles d'éléments, de sachets, des prototypes de cartes, de fiches, des échantillons d'impression ça et là, bref que chaque centime a été investi dans la production.

Sachez aussi que la presse locale a finalement contacté Dionisio et donc qu'un reportage plus professionnel va être tourné d'ici peu. C'est un peu normal puisqu'il s'agit là d'un des plus gros projets jamais financés en Espagne et qui attire l'attention de beaucoup.
Ma surprise a été de découvrir aussi un autre dépôt juxtaposé rempli également de palettes d'éléments.

J'ai pu par ailleurs fabriquer moi-même (en 30 secondes, oui 30 vi vi vi) des figurines d'HeroQuest en métal, voir le process (de la 3D à la réalisation du master résine, puis l'utilisation des moules dans les 6 machines, démoulage & séchage, la phase de tri, de qualité, les tas de résidus exploitables (métal) ou non exploitables (résine). Un accent très fort sur la qualité s'est dégagé de tout cela.

Bien entendu, la boîte du jeu qui est gigantesque comporte tout un tas de surprises, comme les cartes additionnelles, des figurines supplémentaires inédites offertes. J'ai pu voir le design final qui est gardé comme l'ovni de Roswell et découvrir beaucoup de choses que Dionisio s'était gardé de montrer jusque là.
Bref, le temps de me poser et de travailler sur les vidéos, de voir avec les collègues pour les sous titres étrangers et je vous livrerai déjà un avant-goût.

En tout cas, d'Isabel en passant par Cristina ou même Rafa et ses 2 compères j'ai vraiment été agréablement surpris.
La visite a été plus que fructueuse puisque j'ai surtout pu mettre à plat avec Rafa, en charge de la mise en place du design final, de beaucoup de points essentiels pour livrer la meilleure version française qui soit. Nous avons énormément échangé, comparé & corrigé, partagé nos points de vue, consulté Dionisio en direct pour avoir son aval et même trouvé des idées innovantes pour en surprendre plus d'un.
Il apparaissait plus que nécessaire de se rencontrer après 4 ans de collaboration à distance et d'exprimer de vive voix les suggestions et remarques.

Il me reste à réaliser l'actualisation.
   
Made in us
Dipping With Wood Stain





San Francisco, CA

Haha. Means "takes it right in the kisser", as in, he's getting beat up. Probably figuratively speaking.

I play...

Sigh.

Who am I kidding? I only paint these days... 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






Game components picture form HQF (via BGG)

I must say it will be lovely looking game if it ever gets released! I don't recall there being fences before and I'd like a close up of that plastic sprue

Plus a small update (on his visit)
So to show a part, yes I can do it shortly
introduce the French prototype in the salons, toy libraries and surroundings also
.. Metal and resin This way you will compare
this besides the object of my future plans, to present to you in details and in video all the elements of the finished

game.I miss the cards of monsters and the 16 characters whose design we finish with Rafa.By
mid March this should be printed and ready to present,

I finished editing the video part 2 (the visit at GZ) this morning, and tomorrow I'm playing subs and some audio covers that I send to the team for translations.
I really want everyone to understand what is said and I do not wish to, contrary to what some people think that the update is broadcast on a private channel. Similarly, the local Spanish television will broadcast its report but it will also appear on the official game page.


Original French version in case of dodgy translation
Spoiler:
Alors pour montrer une partie, oui je vais pouvoir le faire d'ici peu.
Présenter le prototype français dans les salons, ludothèques et alentours aussi
En métal et en résine. Comme ça vous comparerez.
C'est d'ailleurs l'objet de mes futures plans, vous présenter en détails et en vidéo tous les éléments du jeu finis.

Il me manque les fiches de monstres et des 16 personnages dont nous terminons le design avec Rafa.
D'ici mi mars cela devrait être imprimé et prêt à présenter.

J'ai fini le montage de la vidéo part 2 (la visite chez GZ) ce matin. Demain j'attaque les subs et quelques reprises audio que j'envoie à l'équipe pour les traductions.
Je tiens vraiment à ce que tout le monde puisse comprendre ce qui se dit et je ne souhaite pas contrairement à ce que certains pensent que l'actualisation soit diffusée sur un canal privé. De même, la télévision espagnole locale va diffuser son reportage mais il figurera aussi sur la page officielle du jeu.




[Thumb - pic4006073.jpg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/25 11:02:22


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

So the cage is done, that was according to an earlier report the only unproduced terrain component, once we see the Drakks we can be sure that ALL the miniatures are completed.

So close now....

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






A backer on BGG actually got a response from GZ

We have been play testing it to death. My demo team has died so many times now they hate me and I need new sacrifices to appease the Tentacles of the Abyss.

otherwise, the game is on track to be finished very shortly. The printing is about to wind down and the small problems with the dyeing of the Dice is finally all sorted out, all of the miniatures are finished bagged and ready. So once the material from the printers arrives we will be boxing everything up and sending it out. I cannot give you a date as of yet but we are looking at a very short wait from here.

Thank you very much for your patience we wholeheartedly appreciate it.

Regards,
Kraken
El 2018-02-27 14:52

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 12:20:19


 
   
Made in gb
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






UK

I still want to believe

   
Made in us
Haughty Harad Serpent Rider





Richmond, VA

Hopefully it'll arrive in time for the 30th anniversary!

"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Tiger Soldier




North Wales

Could this actually be happening?

I'm not crazy enough to get my hopes up, but I've been having a bit of an odd day - maybe I've crossed over into the Mirror Universe...

Let's see... evil goatee? Check!
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Illuminati






Arlington, va

HQ25 and Robotech nearing conclusion (if not a happy one)? Can it be?

 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Delivery costs are the main hurdle, everything else is IMHO a mental barrier to avoid the looming shadow of the real issue.


n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in gb
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






UK

I seem to remember paying shipping on the GZ website a few years ago, hopefully they remember that too!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it - Thu, Jul 3, 2014

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/14 17:07:34


   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Slinky wrote:
I seem to remember paying shipping on the GZ website a few years ago, hopefully they remember that too!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it - Thu, Jul 3, 2014


It is very common for crowdfund projects to blow all the funds including shipping on the development. Gamezone is not the only company to fall foul of that, a number have including ons that were uptill then doing very well. Hawk Wargames lost it's independence because of this quite recently, they found they couldnt ship and had used all the funds, now Dave Lewis is just a designer in someone else's company.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
 
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