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Kdash wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


Yet at the same time GW increased the storm raven points so its unusable and reduced the Fire Raptor down by 60. As if that's not bad enough they decreased the cost of the CHAOS Fire Raptor by 90 because they didn't realize the CSM version already had a discount. This book is pretty much a joke for balance and reeks of rolling dice on a chart to see which unit changes.

So, by raising the total cost of the Stormraven by 20-31 points (depending on loadout) suddenly makes the Raven “unusable”?

If you still want to run Stormravens I’m pretty sure, the points aren’t going to hurt you too much.

As for the Fire Raptor, I personally think it needed a decrease. It is still ~47 points more expensive than the Stormraven, but it has more wounds. I’d argue that it could probably still come down more compared to the Stormraven, due to it lacking the transport capacity (and as we know, having transport space somehow costs an expensive premium in 40k). On the flip side, you can argue that the Raptor has better general weapons, even though the Stormraven will still likely do more damage to vehicles.

The optimal stormraven was raised by 41 not 20-31 but the *actual* point is that it is unusable because the fire raptor is much better now. True, a 12% rise in cost doesn't instantly mean a unit is worthless however because a BETTER unit dropped in cost by 15% it makes the previous unit fairly noncompetitive. Previously, the Fire Raptor was 25% more expensive for a modest improvement in firepower and now its 3% more. It's not very difficult to know the correct option.

Why go through the trouble of nerfing almost EVERY OTHER FW unit to the point of obsolescence but then make the fire raptor insane? It just feels like a lack of any kind of rational points method.

Kdash wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


Yet at the same time GW increased the storm raven points so its unusable and reduced the Fire Raptor down by 60. As if that's not bad enough they decreased the cost of the CHAOS Fire Raptor by 90 because they didn't realize the CSM version already had a discount. This book is pretty much a joke for balance and reeks of rolling dice on a chart to see which unit changes.

So, by raising the total cost of the Stormraven by 20-31 points (depending on loadout) suddenly makes the Raven “unusable”?

If you still want to run Stormravens I’m pretty sure, the points aren’t going to hurt you too much.

As for the Fire Raptor, I personally think it needed a decrease. It is still ~47 points more expensive than the Stormraven, but it has more wounds. I’d argue that it could probably still come down more compared to the Stormraven, due to it lacking the transport capacity (and as we know, having transport space somehow costs an expensive premium in 40k). On the flip side, you can argue that the Raptor has better general weapons, even though the Stormraven will still likely do more damage to vehicles.

In the black and white world of min/maxing: yes. Because if its not the best option, it is not an option.

 auticus wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


Yet at the same time GW increased the storm raven points so its unusable and reduced the Fire Raptor down by 60. As if that's not bad enough they decreased the cost of the CHAOS Fire Raptor by 90 because they didn't realize the CSM version already had a discount. This book is pretty much a joke for balance and reeks of rolling dice on a chart to see which unit changes.

So, by raising the total cost of the Stormraven by 20-31 points (depending on loadout) suddenly makes the Raven “unusable”?

If you still want to run Stormravens I’m pretty sure, the points aren’t going to hurt you too much.

As for the Fire Raptor, I personally think it needed a decrease. It is still ~47 points more expensive than the Stormraven, but it has more wounds. I’d argue that it could probably still come down more compared to the Stormraven, due to it lacking the transport capacity (and as we know, having transport space somehow costs an expensive premium in 40k). On the flip side, you can argue that the Raptor has better general weapons, even though the Stormraven will still likely do more damage to vehicles.

In the black and white world of min/maxing: yes. Because if its not the best option, it is not an option.

This... So much this. Just because one is slightly better means the other is unplayable? I guess if you're a WAAC canoe.... But what about all those that own Ravens but not raptors? They can still have a viable option to play without having to invest in the resin raptor. Also it gives chaos access to a flyer that is comparable, since they nerfbatted the blade and talon, both of which fill different rolls from the raptor anyway

 Jidmah wrote:
You cannot know if bigger margins on plastic, lack of quality in FW's rule writing or simply because FW is so much harder to access than GW stuff is the reason.

Given how much of the GW range is mail order only (or even out of production), just how is FW "so much harder to access"?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You cannot know if bigger margins on plastic, lack of quality in FW's rule writing or simply because FW is so much harder to access than GW stuff is the reason.

Given how much of the GW range is mail order only (or even out of production), just how is FW "so much harder to access"?

FW has a few extra hoops. Shipping is way more expensive and they only take GBP which often requires special approval to get the transaction through depending on credit cards. It's not world ending or anything, but I have definitely balked on an order due to one of the small extra hurdles.

In general I agree with your premise though. There's a ton of hate directed at FW that somehow doesn't bother with models like Draigo that are GW only.

 quickfuze wrote:

 auticus wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:


Yet at the same time GW increased the storm raven points so its unusable and reduced the Fire Raptor down by 60. As if that's not bad enough they decreased the cost of the CHAOS Fire Raptor by 90 because they didn't realize the CSM version already had a discount. This book is pretty much a joke for balance and reeks of rolling dice on a chart to see which unit changes.

So, by raising the total cost of the Stormraven by 20-31 points (depending on loadout) suddenly makes the Raven “unusable”?

If you still want to run Stormravens I’m pretty sure, the points aren’t going to hurt you too much.

As for the Fire Raptor, I personally think it needed a decrease. It is still ~47 points more expensive than the Stormraven, but it has more wounds. I’d argue that it could probably still come down more compared to the Stormraven, due to it lacking the transport capacity (and as we know, having transport space somehow costs an expensive premium in 40k). On the flip side, you can argue that the Raptor has better general weapons, even though the Stormraven will still likely do more damage to vehicles.

In the black and white world of min/maxing: yes. Because if its not the best option, it is not an option.

This... So much this. Just because one is slightly better means the other is unplayable? I guess if your a WAAC canoe.... But what about all those that own Ravens but not raptors? They can still have a viable option to play without having to invest in the resin raptor. Also it gives chaos access to a flyer that is comparable, since the nerfbatted the blade and talon, both of which fill different rolls from the raptor anyway

Fire Raptors are cheap to get. Just do some searches. The games life blood is Completive play. There is a lot of money in big tourneys, and that is what drives GW to keep producing models. CA focus is on matched play. Yea, it has other stuff in it, but everyone's talking about points. So yes, when there is clearly just a better option, the others are unplayable in a completive scene as you are just handicapping yourself.

Dunno if this is new info or not. Cheers.

I've seen it confirmed that there's no points cost changes for GW Tau or Necrons. Could this mean their codecii are coming in February?

 axisofentropy wrote:
I've seen it confirmed that there's no points cost changes for GW Tau or Necrons. Could this mean their codecii are coming in February?

That's a theory I've seen posted here and elsewhere this past week.

Maybe?

 axisofentropy wrote:
I've seen it confirmed that there's no points cost changes for GW Tau or Necrons. Could this mean their codecii are coming in February?

Given that the other factions who didn't get GW points changes are BA, DA, and Daemons (IE the next 3 codices), this is a fairly safe assumption.

Thousand Sons also didn't get any point changes (the Exalted Sorcerer entry is identical to the changes already made in the FAQ). Not sure how much to read into that, probably better to not get our hopes up.

 kronk wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
I've seen it confirmed that there's no points cost changes for GW Tau or Necrons. Could this mean their codecii are coming in February?

That's a theory I've seen posted here and elsewhere this past week.

Maybe?

It's not a theory. We have seen all of the pages of points changes. The page numbers are all sequential. There is no room for Tau or Necrons.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
I've seen it confirmed that there's no points cost changes for GW Tau or Necrons. Could this mean their codecii are coming in February?

That's a theory I've seen posted here and elsewhere this past week.

Maybe?

It's not a theory. We have seen all of the pages of points changes. The page numbers are all sequential. There is no room for Tau or Necrons.

I believe they're positing Necron & Tau books in February as the theory, not missing pages.

Voss wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
I've seen it confirmed that there's no points cost changes for GW Tau or Necrons. Could this mean their codecii are coming in February?

That's a theory I've seen posted here and elsewhere this past week.

Maybe?

It's not a theory. We have seen all of the pages of points changes. The page numbers are all sequential. There is no room for Tau or Necrons.

I believe they're positing Necron & Tau books in February as the theory, not missing pages.

Oh. Well I think that is a sound theory. Probably even one of them in January after Daemons.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You cannot know if bigger margins on plastic, lack of quality in FW's rule writing or simply because FW is so much harder to access than GW stuff is the reason.

Given how much of the GW range is mail order only (or even out of production), just how is FW "so much harder to access"?

I cannot find the models on the GW homepage, I need to know a model exists to even be able to find its rules, rules are not available from indexes or codices, and so on.
For example, if I wanted to add a FW model to my Death Guard army, just finding out which ones are available and what their rules are is a chore.

It's not about ordering a model. It's about access to the whole part of the game. The only way new players find out that forgeworld even exists is from older players.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Voss wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
I've seen it confirmed that there's no points cost changes for GW Tau or Necrons. Could this mean their codecii are coming in February?

That's a theory I've seen posted here and elsewhere this past week.

Maybe?

It's not a theory. We have seen all of the pages of points changes. The page numbers are all sequential. There is no room for Tau or Necrons.

I believe they're positing Necron & Tau books in February as the theory, not missing pages.

Oh. Well I think that is a sound theory. Probably even one of them in January after Daemons.

Even if true, this is pretty irritating. The points changes read like they only gave any adjustments to armies that are going to be waiting 6-8 months for a codex. Even if we see Necrons in january, Thousand Sons and Tau in February, that still leaves factions like Dark Eldar, Orks, and Deathwatch who received basically no changes of substance waiting 3-4 months to have a chance to compete with basic codex factions. Some (like GSC) they actually gave the tools to hold their own (which is good because I'd guess GSC will be waiting at least 6 months) but their bar for "eh, it's so close we don't need to give a gak" was way, way too low to hope that CA was actually going to serve its stated purpose.

I played Orks through seventh, and there was nothing quite like the frustration of every new faction that got a fancy shiny decurion-dex pulling out all their cheese to stomp you flat and then having the player rationalize the two-turn tabling by saying "I'm sure you'll get your codex soon and then it'd be way closer!"

In 7th, GW just puttered to a stop and left a game where half the factions in the game could simply not compete with the other half. At this point, if you don't play Chaos or the Imperium, odds are really good (6/8 factions) that you just have no way to access the tools required to compete against the god-tier soupmaster factions. Why they chose to go the route of basically getting the entirety of the factions that can ally together to gain access to any number of free rules and dozens of stratagems before bothering to touch any of the factions that don't get the enormous advantage of allies....well, your guess is as good as mine. They could have just released Codex SM and Codex CSM and included a number of generic stratagems that all marines get access to, then the same for all Eldar, Guard(for all non-marine imperium) and Nids/GSC when releasing those codexes, and then we could have had everyone with tools, traits and relics pretty much by this point. But they didn't do that.

 Crazyterran wrote:
They destroyed the Grav Flux Bombard. It used to be competitive with the Storm Cannon, now at 30 points more for a pair...

No, it was very, very cheap. Now its still cheap for a weapon that can do flat 5 damage to a vehicle or monster or titan. There is nothing for 65 pts. which can do the same damage at AP-5 and S9.

the_scotsman wrote:

Even if true, this is pretty irritating. The points changes read like they only gave any adjustments to armies that are going to be waiting 6-8 months for a codex. Even if we see Necrons in january, Thousand Sons and Tau in February, that still leaves factions like Dark Eldar, Orks, and Deathwatch who received basically no changes of substance waiting 3-4 months to have a chance to compete with basic codex factions. Some (like GSC) they actually gave the tools to hold their own (which is good because I'd guess GSC will be waiting at least 6 months) but their bar for "eh, it's so close we don't need to give a gak" was way, way too low to hope that CA was actually going to serve its stated purpose.

I played Orks through seventh, and there was nothing quite like the frustration of every new faction that got a fancy shiny decurion-dex pulling out all their cheese to stomp you flat and then having the player rationalize the two-turn tabling by saying "I'm sure you'll get your codex soon and then it'd be way closer!"

In 7th, GW just puttered to a stop and left a game where half the factions in the game could simply not compete with the other half. At this point, if you don't play Chaos or the Imperium, odds are really good (6/8 factions) that you just have no way to access the tools required to compete against the god-tier soupmaster factions. Why they chose to go the route of basically getting the entirety of the factions that can ally together to gain access to any number of free rules and dozens of stratagems before bothering to touch any of the factions that don't get the enormous advantage of allies....well, your guess is as good as mine. They could have just released Codex SM and Codex CSM and included a number of generic stratagems that all marines get access to, then the same for all Eldar, Guard(for all non-marine imperium) and Nids/GSC when releasing those codexes, and then we could have had everyone with tools, traits and relics pretty much by this point. But they didn't do that.

It would have been great if they opened 8th releasing all codexes at once. But they didn't. Someone is going to end up being last. It sucks, but thats what it is. Complaining about it is pointless.

 Lance845 wrote:

It would have been great if they opened 8th releasing all codexes at once. But they didn't. Someone is going to end up being last. It sucks, but thats what it is. Complaining about it is pointless.

This was why I was really happy to see the Indexes and really disappointed to see Codexes return. Some faction consolidation would allow them to cycle through codexes a lot faster. They wouldn't even need to release them all at once; but fewer factions would mean the gap between the first and last codexes could be a lot shorter.

Complaining is never pointless it got AoS the ghb, it made them see the imbalance of 7th was what people hated.

Of course because gw are cowards they don't dare open a two way conversation because they know why they are held in such low regard.

But at least some are self aware enough to realise they can't go off Facebook to see what the community thinks.

Well to be fair, they've released a massive survey today on warhammer community and want your responses. Go tell them what you think.

Personally I don't see how they could have brought the codexes out much faster than they are doing. I think the index first approach is pretty sensible in that it lets everyone play straight away, then fleshes out the detail after some time and playtesting has gone by.

LunarSol wrote:
...fewer factions would mean the gap between the first and last codexes could be a lot shorter.

Ravening Hordes would beg to differ.

When WHFB 6E launched, they released 'get you by' lists for every army, until they could release full army books for everyone. I recall Wood Elves didn't get a full book until 7E, and Chaos Dwarves never really got one at all. And mind you, there were few armies then than 40k has now.

 Lance845 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Even if true, this is pretty irritating. The points changes read like they only gave any adjustments to armies that are going to be waiting 6-8 months for a codex. Even if we see Necrons in january, Thousand Sons and Tau in February, that still leaves factions like Dark Eldar, Orks, and Deathwatch who received basically no changes of substance waiting 3-4 months to have a chance to compete with basic codex factions. Some (like GSC) they actually gave the tools to hold their own (which is good because I'd guess GSC will be waiting at least 6 months) but their bar for "eh, it's so close we don't need to give a gak" was way, way too low to hope that CA was actually going to serve its stated purpose.

I played Orks through seventh, and there was nothing quite like the frustration of every new faction that got a fancy shiny decurion-dex pulling out all their cheese to stomp you flat and then having the player rationalize the two-turn tabling by saying "I'm sure you'll get your codex soon and then it'd be way closer!"

In 7th, GW just puttered to a stop and left a game where half the factions in the game could simply not compete with the other half. At this point, if you don't play Chaos or the Imperium, odds are really good (6/8 factions) that you just have no way to access the tools required to compete against the god-tier soupmaster factions. Why they chose to go the route of basically getting the entirety of the factions that can ally together to gain access to any number of free rules and dozens of stratagems before bothering to touch any of the factions that don't get the enormous advantage of allies....well, your guess is as good as mine. They could have just released Codex SM and Codex CSM and included a number of generic stratagems that all marines get access to, then the same for all Eldar, Guard(for all non-marine imperium) and Nids/GSC when releasing those codexes, and then we could have had everyone with tools, traits and relics pretty much by this point. But they didn't do that.

It would have been great if they opened 8th releasing all codexes at once. But they didn't. Someone is going to end up being last. It sucks, but thats what it is. Complaining about it is pointless.

Do you live in the same world we do? Complaining is the ONLY way things change regardless of what we're talking about. GW didn't just realize Malefic lords were crazy, it took complaining and tournament results to show them that. Same with AoS getting points quickly after release and other matched play improvements.

If you don't complain then you get absolutely nothing. Its the way of life.

 Lance845 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Even if true, this is pretty irritating. The points changes read like they only gave any adjustments to armies that are going to be waiting 6-8 months for a codex. Even if we see Necrons in january, Thousand Sons and Tau in February, that still leaves factions like Dark Eldar, Orks, and Deathwatch who received basically no changes of substance waiting 3-4 months to have a chance to compete with basic codex factions. Some (like GSC) they actually gave the tools to hold their own (which is good because I'd guess GSC will be waiting at least 6 months) but their bar for "eh, it's so close we don't need to give a gak" was way, way too low to hope that CA was actually going to serve its stated purpose.

I played Orks through seventh, and there was nothing quite like the frustration of every new faction that got a fancy shiny decurion-dex pulling out all their cheese to stomp you flat and then having the player rationalize the two-turn tabling by saying "I'm sure you'll get your codex soon and then it'd be way closer!"

In 7th, GW just puttered to a stop and left a game where half the factions in the game could simply not compete with the other half. At this point, if you don't play Chaos or the Imperium, odds are really good (6/8 factions) that you just have no way to access the tools required to compete against the god-tier soupmaster factions. Why they chose to go the route of basically getting the entirety of the factions that can ally together to gain access to any number of free rules and dozens of stratagems before bothering to touch any of the factions that don't get the enormous advantage of allies....well, your guess is as good as mine. They could have just released Codex SM and Codex CSM and included a number of generic stratagems that all marines get access to, then the same for all Eldar, Guard(for all non-marine imperium) and Nids/GSC when releasing those codexes, and then we could have had everyone with tools, traits and relics pretty much by this point. But they didn't do that.

It would have been great if they opened 8th releasing all codexes at once. But they didn't. Someone is going to end up being last. It sucks, but thats what it is. Complaining about it is pointless.

Orks are always last, and never any good.

But hey, if you’re a marine player “someone has to be first”, right?

Why can’t they ever release the Xenos books at a decent rate, instead of the million variations of the same book (Space Marines).

If Xenos got treated like SM, every Hive Fleet/Craftworld/Ork Klan/Dynasty would have their own codex - not be lumped into one.

Feels good to be an imperial, am I right?

Orkz got their 5th edition codex at the end of 4th, and it was pretty dominant for a while.

fe40k wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Even if true, this is pretty irritating. The points changes read like they only gave any adjustments to armies that are going to be waiting 6-8 months for a codex. Even if we see Necrons in january, Thousand Sons and Tau in February, that still leaves factions like Dark Eldar, Orks, and Deathwatch who received basically no changes of substance waiting 3-4 months to have a chance to compete with basic codex factions. Some (like GSC) they actually gave the tools to hold their own (which is good because I'd guess GSC will be waiting at least 6 months) but their bar for "eh, it's so close we don't need to give a gak" was way, way too low to hope that CA was actually going to serve its stated purpose.

I played Orks through seventh, and there was nothing quite like the frustration of every new faction that got a fancy shiny decurion-dex pulling out all their cheese to stomp you flat and then having the player rationalize the two-turn tabling by saying "I'm sure you'll get your codex soon and then it'd be way closer!"

In 7th, GW just puttered to a stop and left a game where half the factions in the game could simply not compete with the other half. At this point, if you don't play Chaos or the Imperium, odds are really good (6/8 factions) that you just have no way to access the tools required to compete against the god-tier soupmaster factions. Why they chose to go the route of basically getting the entirety of the factions that can ally together to gain access to any number of free rules and dozens of stratagems before bothering to touch any of the factions that don't get the enormous advantage of allies....well, your guess is as good as mine. They could have just released Codex SM and Codex CSM and included a number of generic stratagems that all marines get access to, then the same for all Eldar, Guard(for all non-marine imperium) and Nids/GSC when releasing those codexes, and then we could have had everyone with tools, traits and relics pretty much by this point. But they didn't do that.

It would have been great if they opened 8th releasing all codexes at once. But they didn't. Someone is going to end up being last. It sucks, but thats what it is. Complaining about it is pointless.

Orks are always last, and never any good.

But hey, if you’re a marine player “someone has to be first”, right?

Why can’t they ever release the Xenos books at a decent rate, instead of the million variations of the same book (Space Marines).

If Xenos got treated like SM, every Hive Fleet/Craftworld/Ork Klan/Dynasty would have their own codex - not be lumped into one.

Feels good to be an imperial, am I right?

First of all, the vast majority of people who play imperial armies don't play soup, except in tournament settings and plenty of people don't even then.

Secondly EXCUSE YOU?!?!? Orkz are NEVER last, because we as GAME, heck as a SETTING have a bonafied, 100%, always last usually forgetton faction; and their name is Sisters of Battle.

You wanna complain about your army being subpar or not getting any new kits for a while? Fine. But always remember that hey, at least YOUR kits are plastic for the most part.

I agree, ork kits are awesome - finecast sucks, but you can simply get the metal version of these models from ebay.

p5freak wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
They destroyed the Grav Flux Bombard. It used to be competitive with the Storm Cannon, now at 30 points more for a pair...

No, it was very, very cheap. Now its still cheap for a weapon that can do flat 5 damage to a vehicle or monster or titan. There is nothing for 65 pts. which can do the same damage at AP-5 and S9.

I've always considered the grav-flux to be pretty "on par" with the stormcannon from a numbers point of view. It was only really way better when targetting huge conscript squads and better vs T8 from points per wound figure.

However, now that you're likely never to see a squad of anything larger than 20, the stormcannon is better vs everything apart from vs T8, but the gap has closed and the expected average damage between the 2 is only 3.7. This drops down to 2.9 when shooting after moving.

I’m not inclined to sit and listen to a podcast or hunt through 37 pages, could anyone please signpost me to a comment or post that’s succinctly compiled the known changes? Thanks

 Kirasu wrote:


Do you live in the same world we do? Complaining is the ONLY way things change regardless of what we're talking about. GW didn't just realize Malefic lords were crazy, it took complaining and tournament results to show them that. Same with AoS getting points quickly after release and other matched play improvements.

If you don't complain then you get absolutely nothing. Its the way of life.

They can see tournament results just fine without people making ridiculous comments.

There's a big gulf between complaining and constructive criticism.