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I hope I'm not wrong.

RW Champion is a DA character
RW Champion can be DA warlord
A DA character can take a relic if the warlord is DA
Should be a good BS3+ character sniper with Sotr + Wftda + Sammael RR + TM negating cover and RR 1s to wounds on 4
shots at s7 ap-3 dm2.

I believe the Lion's roar is an upgrade for a combi-plasma, and I don't think Ravenwing Champions can take one of those (in fact, no upgrades at all)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you want a character sniper then a techmarine (on bike) may be a good option. Sadly will not get the ravenwing keyword, so no speed of the raven for him, but will pack alot of shots (two from Lion's roar, one from plasma cutter + 6 bolter shots at bs 2+). Also, a flamer! Needs to get within 12" (8" for the flamer) to pull it off, and has basically no defence apart from his character keyword. Could be a nasty surprise for someone.

Yeah I missed that. Back to the drawing board.

if you really want character snipers, bring 15 scouts with sniper rifles. dark angel HQ's, like all Space Marines, are good at buffing and beating. keep them focused on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also the castellan knight is great for character sniping with it's missile stratagem

Yes, snipers to actually do sniping is a good idea. I think Reese from Frontline gaming used alot of these together with a reroll bubble in in SM army at Nova.

Brickolage wrote:
I believe the Lion's roar is an upgrade for a combi-plasma, and I don't think Ravenwing Champions can take one of those (in fact, no upgrades at all)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you want a character sniper then a techmarine (on bike) may be a good option. Sadly will not get the ravenwing keyword, so no speed of the raven for him, but will pack alot of shots (two from Lion's roar, one from plasma cutter + 6 bolter shots at bs 2+). Also, a flamer! Needs to get within 12" (8" for the flamer) to pull it off, and has basically no defence apart from his character keyword. Could be a nasty surprise for someone.

The techmarine has access to a way better weapon which enables him to stay in the backgroud. Take a look at the conversion beamer you can use on the techmarine with bike.

SpaceJS wrote:

Brickolage wrote:
I believe the Lion's roar is an upgrade for a combi-plasma, and I don't think Ravenwing Champions can take one of those (in fact, no upgrades at all)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you want a character sniper then a techmarine (on bike) may be a good option. Sadly will not get the ravenwing keyword, so no speed of the raven for him, but will pack alot of shots (two from Lion's roar, one from plasma cutter + 6 bolter shots at bs 2+). Also, a flamer! Needs to get within 12" (8" for the flamer) to pull it off, and has basically no defence apart from his character keyword. Could be a nasty surprise for someone.

The techmarine has access to a way better weapon which enables him to stay in the backgroud. Take a look at the conversion beamer you can use on the techmarine with bike.

Yes, but I think the conversion beamer is heavy, which means it can't be used with the huntsman warlord trait.

Brickolage wrote:

SpaceJS wrote:

Brickolage wrote:
I believe the Lion's roar is an upgrade for a combi-plasma, and I don't think Ravenwing Champions can take one of those (in fact, no upgrades at all)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you want a character sniper then a techmarine (on bike) may be a good option. Sadly will not get the ravenwing keyword, so no speed of the raven for him, but will pack alot of shots (two from Lion's roar, one from plasma cutter + 6 bolter shots at bs 2+). Also, a flamer! Needs to get within 12" (8" for the flamer) to pull it off, and has basically no defence apart from his character keyword. Could be a nasty surprise for someone.

The techmarine has access to a way better weapon which enables him to stay in the backgroud. Take a look at the conversion beamer you can use on the techmarine with bike.

Yes, but I think the conversion beamer is heavy, which means it can't be used with the huntsman warlord trait.

That is indeed true, I did not take that into account.

 axisofentropy wrote:
also the castellan knight is great for character sniping with it's missile stratagem

that's pretty much quaranteed 3 CP for <30% chance to kill 4W character. if you try that you need some snipers or you will likely end up with just wounded character.

Those missiles sounds awesome but when you realize how easy it is to miss(3+ to hit), wound(2+) or not roll enough wounds and how much CP it eats...Well I find generally better use for CP. Like house raven strategem for extra turn for that awesome "blow up 2-3 units a turn" castellan.

tneva82 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
also the castellan knight is great for character sniping with it's missile stratagem

that's pretty much quaranteed 3 CP for <30% chance to kill 4W character. if you try that you need some snipers or you will likely end up with just wounded character.

Those missiles sounds awesome but when you realize how easy it is to miss(3+ to hit), wound(2+) or not roll enough wounds and how much CP it eats...Well I find generally better use for CP. Like house raven strategem for extra turn for that awesome "blow up 2-3 units a turn" castellan.

sounds like you don't really need character sniping then.

 axisofentropy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
also the castellan knight is great for character sniping with it's missile stratagem

that's pretty much quaranteed 3 CP for <30% chance to kill 4W character. if you try that you need some snipers or you will likely end up with just wounded character.

Those missiles sounds awesome but when you realize how easy it is to miss(3+ to hit), wound(2+) or not roll enough wounds and how much CP it eats...Well I find generally better use for CP. Like house raven strategem for extra turn for that awesome "blow up 2-3 units a turn" castellan.

sounds like you don't really need character sniping then.

Character sniping is always useful but the big knights are rather resource heavy way to do that and unless you bring in OTHER character snipers you are basically depending on luck.

So far out of all the attempts my castellan(and that's raven one so better than any other house. Other houses don't reroll 1's for everything which helps with the 3 chances you can screw it) and very rarely have succeeded with it. Only vs eldar it actually worked(twice though one time didn't need strategem and frankly didn't need missile either. I was standing 1.1" from autarch...) and that was pure blind luck both missiles killed target. Odds are waaaaay too low.

With raven vs say farseer you are looking at:

75% chance to hit
97% chance to wound
38.89% chance to cause enough wounds.

That's what 28% chance combined that it actually worked...

Command reroll to reroll those 2's to hit and 2, 3 and 4 to wound helps of course but then again you can end up using that for the reroll to hit and then roll 2, 3 and 4 to damage.

I remember the fuss about that combo but in practice it's too unreliable to RELY on if you need character sniping. You need plenty of snipers to help along with IG battery to provide CP for that super CP hungry attempt. Alone it's leaving just wounded characters most of the time(good vs ork weirdboys though. 2 wounds to them basically neuters it)

Today I've managed to kill a full HP knight in one turn with 6 plasma inceptors and one jump pack master near them.

It was... glorious.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Today I've managed to kill a full HP knight in one turn with 6 plasma inceptors and one jump pack master near them.

It was... glorious.

That unit can put in serious work, given some good rolls. How long did they survive afterwards, though? And how many blew themselves up despite the Master's rerolls?

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Today I've managed to kill a full HP knight in one turn with 6 plasma inceptors and one jump pack master near them.

It was... glorious.

That unit can put in serious work, given some good rolls. How long did they survive afterwards, though? And how many blew themselves up despite the Master's rerolls?

The opponent conceded after that, but we did a joke next round and his rune priest + wolf lord killed them all (charged me behind a tall buildind).

Regarding overheat, none died. I was amazed (and so was my opponent )

---

Ah, and his TWC smashed through my Hellblasters. The latter certainly aren't an answer to the former, if these are carrying storm shields

I dunno, supercharging and popping WotDA on the Hellblasters could still do work. They may not fail that many saves but each one is a dead Thunderwolf, so not total cabbage against them.

I'm a pretty casual gamer and plan to stay that way, but I don't like leaning into the pain unnecessarily.

Has anyone figured out good ways to use Deathwing stuff? I have a bunch and am tempted. But my first army is IG, and the point efficiencies on all of that just seem outrageous to me.

Terminators are kind of in a bad place in 8th edition. They are among the most inefficient units for their points. They seem pretty sturdy at first with 2 wounds and a 2+ armor save, but there are plenty of weapons out there with good AP modifiers and 2 or more damage that will just delete them with little or no effort (like Drukhari Ravagers with Disintegrators).

That said, if you insist on giving Deathwing a shot, you really should include Belial. He gives them full rerolls to hit, and is pretty beastly in combat himself. Play them aggressively; drop them close to the enemy and charge with them if possible, as they will get killed if they just sit out in the open. I used to use Deathwing at the beginning of 8th, but now, nearly everything else is more efficient. The rules for Terminators in general need a serious overhaul, as they don't really have anything that they are good at. Their firepower is mediocre at best, they are slow-moving, they are too expensive to just sit on objectives all game, and there are too many weapons in the game that just wipe them out.

Personally I think our best hope may lie in Chapter Approved. If nothing is done for termies then, my boys in bone will just continue to keep vigil over my shelves, waiting for an edition that actually makes them good.

Right, so I finally finished the thread and have accepted a few sad truths. One, I've given up on character sniping. Two, a lot of the models I have aren't the best performing. Three, It'll be a waste of money to buy a stormraven to ferry in a Vernerable (Deathwing) Dreadnought Chaplain, Belial and 5 Deathwing Knights.

I really like the idea of a Vernerable Dreadnought Chaplain Warlord upgraded with the Deathwing strat to buff its shooting with Belial. As the warlord the vern-dread-chap could buff the charge range or strength of the others around him to +2. Additionally the knights charging in only have to make it to within an inch of the dreads large base right?

But it seems like a waste of points. What are some good ways to use stormravens in a DA list?

I'm thinking of getting a Stormraven just to provide heavy fire support. It can supplement my 2 Dark Talons in an Air Wing detachment. There's not really anything worthwhile to put in it, except maybe some Company Veterans with plasma or something, as they are too fragile and slow to footslog up the board.

A bunch of Company Champions inside a Stormraven is certainly giggleable. Tried that once, but I rolled so badly they didn't do a thing. :(

I'm going to do, I'll buy one and another dark talon/nephilm. It sounds like it'll be fun.

I imagine you could drop a full squad of hellblaster right next to the enemy warlord. Character targeting.

Problem is, a Stormraven with Deathwing Knights inside becomes a fire magnet that goes beyond Distraction Carnifex into points sink. I've tried to make it work since our 8th Ed Codex allowed SRs. It looks nice on my table, but thats it for now.

I also regret to report that you cannot transport Primaris in a Stormraven.

If I'd a storm Raven I'd probably put scouts with knives or veterans with chain swords and a few power weapons. Maybe Asmodai.

 Mk X wrote:
I'm going to do, I'll buy one and another dark talon/nephilm. It sounds like it'll be fun.

I imagine you could drop a full squad of hellblaster right next to the enemy warlord. Character targeting.

Primaris can't go inside the Stormraven. Plasma Veterans or storm bolter/chainsword Veterans are your best bet imo. You could then add Asmodai, Ezekiel +/or an Ancient to the mix, although the cheaper the combo the better

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


I also regret to report that you cannot transport Primaris in a Stormraven.

A perfect opportunity for GW to release an even bigger aircraft, able to carry Primaris!

 Vector Strike wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


I also regret to report that you cannot transport Primaris in a Stormraven.

A perfect opportunity for GW to release an even bigger aircraft, able to carry Primaris!

I could get behind that! Given how the Repulsor turned out, though, it would likely cost 500 points and have plenty of small gunz...

Perhaps sanity will prevail and they will treat Primaris like Terminators for Storm Ravens etc at some point?

Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?

you mean Oldmarines?

Plasmacannon Dev squads are a favorite of the 'I hate Primaris' players. Less range for slightly less points but still good in a pinch. Scouts are still the best troop choice and DA likes to have at least one squad be snipers. Essentially putting up a screen of cheap scouts to keep the enemy away from a huge shooting line of rerolls 1s dark angels (with lieutenants for wounds rerolls of one), backed by everyone favorite Dark Shroud speeder. It essentially the same the primaris list, but with lascannons and plasma cannons in place of hellblasters.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?

you mean Oldmarines?

Plasmacannon Dev squads are a favorite of the 'I hate Primaris' players. Less range for slightly less points but still good in a pinch. Scouts are still the best troop choice and DA likes to have at least one squad be snipers. Essentially putting up a screen of cheap scouts to keep the enemy away from a huge shooting line of rerolls 1s dark angels (with lieutenants for wounds rerolls of one), backed by everyone favorite Dark Shroud speeder. It essentially the same the primaris list, but with lascannons and plasma cannons in place of hellblasters.

Nothing against Primaris, in fact I like them, but I'm building Fallen and it wouldn't make sense thematically

Essentially what I'm asking is, how crucial is Primaris to a good DA list? And you seem to have answered that fairly well, just wondering how big of a handicap it is?

I don't think a lack of Primaris is a big handicap. The Hellblaster/Azrael bubble is good but a bit of a one-trick pony. Black Knights with Sammael or Azrael are a very good alternative to Hellblasters as well.