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I thought it was 12" from the Warriors and they can deep strike anywhere?

 Zach wrote:
I didnt see any discussion on the Hive Vanguard formation, any feelings on the matter?

A turn 1 deep strike of 30 gargoyles (or 2 if you doubled the formation) and the ability to freely detach from assault sounds interesting.

It has some potential I think, but it has two things holding it back a bit.

1): It has some rather stiff competition with the Skytyrant and Skyblight formations, both of which require a Tyrant + Gargoyles and offer game changing benefits (Skyblight basically turns Gargoyles into respawning troops, Skytyrant makes melee Tyrant builds viable).

2): It isn't really a formation that can stand alone, it really needs the rest of the list to be built around it to get the most out of it.

I think if I were to run the formation, I think I would equip the Warriors for melee combat and load them into a Tyrannocyte. Then, have the Gargoyles follow the Tyrant until the Warriors arrive and slingshot them to the Warriors, putting three threats safely in the backfield. Alternatively perhaps use Hive Commander and outflank the Warriors instead, though that isn't quite as reliable.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Stuff got better with the new FAQ's

Flyrants gained Deep Strike and combined with Swooping mode means null deployment is a go.

Also Neurothropes might be an exceptionally good addition, since they no longer have to roll to hit.

wat

Flyrants were always able to deepstrike. Flyrants lost toe-in-ruin cover saves. This one is a HUGE NERF.
Hive Crones can no longer jink and then vector strike. I'm shelfing mine.
No more alpha strike protection with Venomthrope in Bastion/Bunker. HUGE NERF.
Sporefield can no longer be used for alpha strike protection, unless you fancy walking them back on the table if you manage to 4+ them back to life.
Skyblight formation now has 3 dead units (Harpies and the Hive Crone) plus the Gargoyles can't deepstrike back to the table unless the original unit was in deepstrike reserve to begin with.
Broodlords have no ability to use shooting attacks, not even the auto-hitting ones, because BS0. Nothing new here.

There are more, but I'm too depressed to type.

I think it's worth pointing out here that the 'toe in cover nerf' regarding flying monsters is clearly designed to represent when they are swooping they are high above said area terrain. They still benefit from it on the ground (of course, they probably won't be if you can help it). This is how my group has always played it as in the logic of what the game represents it made the most sense to us.

I don't think Nids have been completely ruined but the faq certainly did us no favors... Thank god it's a rough draft so I have a few days to play without it lol. Id say the only buff we actually got was haywire vs VSG (which to me means crones stay in the list) while the auto hitting powers just make mad units mediocre, still not useable.

whirlwindstruggle wrote:
I think it's worth pointing out here that the 'toe in cover nerf' regarding flying monsters is clearly designed to represent when they are swooping they are high above said area terrain. They still benefit from it on the ground (of course, they probably won't be if you can help it).

No.

A: The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature.

A FMC is still an FMC even when not Swooping.

 jifel wrote:
Id say the only buff we actually got was haywire vs VSG (which to me means crones stay in the list) while the auto hitting powers just make mad units mediocre, still not useable.

Also Harridans can now vector strike and still fire both Biocannons and the Hierophant can actually use its upgrade guns without giving up S10 shots.

Also now they aren't slowed to infantry speed by terrain. But Tyranid GC still are absurdly overpriced.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Id say the only buff we actually got was haywire vs VSG (which to me means crones stay in the list) while the auto hitting powers just make mad units mediocre, still not useable.

Also Harridans can now vector strike and still fire both Biocannons and the Hierophant can actually use its upgrade guns without giving up S10 shots.

Harridans could always fire all of their weapons (or at least the way we've been playing it) so that didnt matter much to me. And none of our GMCs are remotely worth it in an ITC game sadly, so I will stick to flyrants, I just have to be more careful with terrain now.

N.I.B. wrote:Flyrants were always able to deepstrike. Flyrants lost toe-in-ruin cover saves. This one is a HUGE NERF.
Hive Crones can no longer jink and then vector strike. I'm shelfing mine.
No more alpha strike protection with Venomthrope in Bastion/Bunker. HUGE NERF.
Sporefield can no longer be used for alpha strike protection, unless you fancy walking them back on the table if you manage to 4+ them back to life.
Skyblight formation now has 3 dead units (Harpies and the Hive Crone) plus the Gargoyles can't deepstrike back to the table unless the original unit was in deepstrike reserve to begin with.
Broodlords have no ability to use shooting attacks, not even the auto-hitting ones, because BS0. Nothing new here.

There are more, but I'm too depressed to type.

Flyrants being able to deepstrike was very open to interpretation to be honest. I feel like most people would have not minded, but I still felt like it would've been pushing my luck a bit to try.

The loss of cover saves on FMCs is huge I agree, but it does also look somewhat like this was a typo, as the question is worded "Swooping FMCs" and the answer is not. Hopefully this gets rectified in the next version.

With Sporefield and/or Skyblight, I've always played it that the units enter the way they came onto the battlefield! I think Outflanking even has an exception to say that you can only do it from reserves and not ongoing or something too, so only deepstrike works. But yeah, sporefield is still alpha protection - if you don't get tabled they do their job, respawning is only a bonus, so I don't see that as a huge issue.

I'm hopeful that when it comes round to doing books, the Patriarch's BS gets addressed, but you're right there, I didn't clock that either.

In any case, whilst you're right on many counts I think things aren't quite as bad as you make out. It's also important to remember that whilst we got some nerfs, other factions ate far worse (Deldar and Imperium) - so we have fallen far less than they have. We're also unaffected by some big things like the grenade nerf.

Is there any race that these changes were beneficial for?

Grav-armies, now that the Void Shield Generator isn't immune to Grav shots.

Might be others, don't quite recall. But IMO, I think the FAQ's does a good job of nerfing many armies, just like the ITC.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/690575.page#8649372

Quick de-rail thread. I could use the thoughts / advice of Tyranid players, and this is where all nid players come... thanks!

 N.I.B. wrote:

whirlwindstruggle wrote:
I think it's worth pointing out here that the 'toe in cover nerf' regarding flying monsters is clearly designed to represent when they are swooping they are high above said area terrain. They still benefit from it on the ground (of course, they probably won't be if you can help it).

No.

A: The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature.

A FMC is still an FMC even when not Swooping.

Obviously means when it's in swooping mode.

whirlwindstruggle wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

whirlwindstruggle wrote:
I think it's worth pointing out here that the 'toe in cover nerf' regarding flying monsters is clearly designed to represent when they are swooping they are high above said area terrain. They still benefit from it on the ground (of course, they probably won't be if you can help it).

No.

A: The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature.

A FMC is still an FMC even when not Swooping.

Obviously means when it's in swooping mode.

thats reading a bit far into it mate... I think RAW, that will never fly

Q: Do Flyers, Super-heavy vehicles, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan Creatures gain cover while standing on the ‘base’ of a terrain piece, e.g. ruins or dense thickets, or do they need to be at least 25% obscured by the scenery for cover to apply?
A: The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature. All other targets count as being in cover if they are in or on the terrain’s base, even if not 25% obsured.

So leave it to GW to contradict themselves once again. The Question refers to a swooping FMC. The answer just refers to a FMC.

I believe the intent is that the FMC has to be swooping as per the question, not the answer.

 jy2 wrote:

Q: Do Flyers, Super-heavy vehicles, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan Creatures gain cover while standing on the ‘base’ of a terrain piece, e.g. ruins or dense thickets, or do they need to be at least 25% obscured by the scenery for cover to apply?
A: The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature. All other targets count as being in cover if they are in or on the terrain’s base, even if not 25% obsured.

So leave it to GW to contradict themselves once again. The Question refers to a swooping FMC. The answer just refers to a FMC.

I believe the intent is that the FMC has to be swooping as per the question, not the answer.

At least they're trying! But I'm really hoping that this is one of those questions that gets changed in the final draft to make it more clear. I'd be much happier if my FMCs got cover when they were on the ground (when it actually makes sense)

 jifel wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Q: Do Flyers, Super-heavy vehicles, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan Creatures gain cover while standing on the ‘base’ of a terrain piece, e.g. ruins or dense thickets, or do they need to be at least 25% obscured by the scenery for cover to apply?
A: The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature. All other targets count as being in cover if they are in or on the terrain’s base, even if not 25% obsured.

So leave it to GW to contradict themselves once again. The Question refers to a swooping FMC. The answer just refers to a FMC.

I believe the intent is that the FMC has to be swooping as per the question, not the answer.

At least they're trying! But I'm really hoping that this is one of those questions that gets changed in the final draft to make it more clear. I'd be much happier if my FMCs got cover when they were on the ground (when it actually makes sense)

Well, I as well as others posted in their comments questions last week asking them to clarify this FAQ, so fingers crossed.

I think that they were referring to swooping FMC as well. Either way, though, it was only on the first turn that our FMC were benefitting from shrouded protection on the ground for the most part. As is, RIP Malanthrope in a box. I'm just waiting for Broodkin to be able to be fielded en masse for some good old fashioned stealer shock.

With Nids only, my dream is for a giant carnifex brood to be viable again....CMON new codex! Papa needs a pair of crushing claws!

I cant wait for a new codex. WS 4 for monstrous creatures?

The sadness that a marine's weapon skill would be an upgrade for many of our MC

All I want is to go back to the days of the 114-pt dakkadex. That would be BOSS.

 jy2 wrote:
All I want is to go back to the days of the 114-pt dakkadex. That would be BOSS.

I changed my answer. If there was just one thing....I would take that

Do you guys have some general tactica for playing nids? I've watched tons of videos and read a lot of forums.. I just seem to lose almost all of my games.

In our local tourney I'm 1W 6L; some of you here may remeber I posted the rules on (pg 362 i believe)..

Anyway we're very restricted and I'm bringing what you guys had suggested I just think I'm playing wrong.. I played against IG today (AM.. whatever) and he had mostly infantry with two heavy weapon teams and a trio of chimeras.
I brought

1000 Pts - Codex: Tyranids Roster

1 Lictor Brood

3 Pyrovore Brood

3 Ripper Swarm Brood - Deep Strike

30 Termagant Brood

2 Tervigon - Cluster Spines; Electroshock Grubs

1 Tyranid Prime - Bone Sword

1 Tyrannocyte - Barbed Stranglers

Neither of us saw eachothers lists before we met for the game, just got lucky with the pyrovores I guess. But my goal was to hide my stuff until my pod came in, he deployed in one corner and i deployed out of LOS in the other.
I got annihilated by his veterans with plasma and his autocannons/missiles.. and he is able to give his units Ignore Cover.. How can I play to deal with this?

The missions we rolled was Purge the alien, which really sucked for my list.. My pyrovore pod came in and really wrecked one of his units, and the pod did okay damage, but I lost with 1 kill point to his 7. I tried to walk the prime up the board with the gants and two tervigons, but he just castled up and gunned me down before I get within 12".

At this point maybe we should write our own competitive fancodex and spread it to the point that it replaces the official one. It would be better than whatever GW will write anyway.

 Alaxandir wrote:
Do you guys have some general tactica for playing nids? I've watched tons of videos and read a lot of forums.. I just seem to lose almost all of my games.

In our local tourney I'm 1W 6L; some of you here may remeber I posted the rules on (pg 362 i believe)..

Anyway we're very restricted and I'm bringing what you guys had suggested I just think I'm playing wrong.. I played against IG today (AM.. whatever) and he had mostly infantry with two heavy weapon teams and a trio of chimeras.
I brought

1000 Pts - Codex: Tyranids Roster

1 Lictor Brood

3 Pyrovore Brood

3 Ripper Swarm Brood - Deep Strike

30 Termagant Brood

2 Tervigon - Cluster Spines; Electroshock Grubs

1 Tyranid Prime - Bone Sword

1 Tyrannocyte - Barbed Stranglers

Neither of us saw eachothers lists before we met for the game, just got lucky with the pyrovores I guess. But my goal was to hide my stuff until my pod came in, he deployed in one corner and i deployed out of LOS in the other.
I got annihilated by his veterans with plasma and his autocannons/missiles.. and he is able to give his units Ignore Cover.. How can I play to deal with this?

The missions we rolled was Purge the alien, which really sucked for my list.. My pyrovore pod came in and really wrecked one of his units, and the pod did okay damage, but I lost with 1 kill point to his 7. I tried to walk the prime up the board with the gants and two tervigons, but he just castled up and gunned me down before I get within 12".

Try running something like this (if you have the models):


Hive Tyrant - 2x TL Devourers
1x Tyrant Guard
Hive Tyrant - 2x TL Devourers
1x Tyrant Guard
Malanthrope
2x Hive Guards
Tervigon
30x Termagants


Advance the entire army together, using the Gants to screen out your TMC's. Run your Tyrants until they are within range to shoot. Tyrants will specialize in killing infantry and light tanks. Hive Guards will take care of medium tanks. Keep everyone within Malanthrope range if possible (until you assault).

 Alaxandir wrote:

I just seem to lose almost all of my games. In our local tourney I'm 1W 6L; some of you here may remeber I posted the rules on (pg 362 i believe)..

Don't get dispirited, Tyranids are a hard army to master and the added restrictions on you only compound the issue. If nothing else, take heart in that each loss is nothing more than a learning experience and eventually you will adapt and overcome.

 Alaxandir wrote:
Do you guys have some general tactica for playing nids? I've watched tons of videos and read a lot of forums..

The key to Tyranids is threat saturation and threat overload, basically bringing more of a given threat type than the opponent is expected to have counters for and presenting those threats all at the same time. The Pentyrant build (5x flying Hive Tyrants with minimum troops - generally rippers or myeloid spores) for instance works in part by overloading enemy anti-air weaponry with more targets than they can conceivably deal with before being neutralized while also making non-AA weapons more or less useless since there is very little for them to target. In addition, everything in the list shares the same general speed, making it harder to prioritize certain threats over others since everything is arriving at more or less the same time.

If we look at your list with the above in mind, we have three general target types with relatively little redundancy/overlap and two different speeds (deepstriking threats and footsloggers). This makes target priority fairly straightforward for your opponent, basically focus on the closest threat and apply the right gun to each applicable target type.

Now as a strictly hypothetical, consider the following:

---------------------------
HQ: Tyranid Prime
HQ: Tyranid Prime

ELITES: 2x Hive Guard
ELITES: 2x Hive Guard
ELITES: 2x Hive Guard

TROOPS: 25x Termagants
TROOPS: 25x Termagants
TROOPS: 25x Termagants

HEAVY: 1x Biovore
HEAVY: 1x Biovore
HEAVY: 1x Biovore

Total: 1000 points
---------------------------

Not a perfect list by any means, but it has reasonable threat saturation through redundancy and has enough bodies to hopefully overload enemy anti-infantry weapons. Everything moves at the same general speed and there is enough redundancy that you aren't relying on any single unit to survive. The Hive Guard and Biovores admittedly are vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry so threat overload isn't perfect, but this is mitigated somewhat with their ability to fire indirectly.

Edit: Jy2's suggested list also has good saturation, but in reverse (almost everything is T6, thus overwhelming anti-monster fire).

Anyway, are there any restrictions on the number of monsters allowed next week? I remember flying monsters are allowed which should help give you a much needed boost. If possible, I would suggest loading the Tervigons into Tyrannocytes or take advantage of Hive Commander to get them up the field quickly.

I think in the next codex, Tyranids need something to add diversity to the lists that can be fielded, rather than 3x flyrants and 3x mawlocs etc etc.

A few changes I would be totally okay with if the design team implemented:

Devourers - Bring back the living ammo rule (re-roll to wound) and drop the strength by 1 on both versions. Keeps the rounds as what they're intended for - anti infantry, and makes Flyrants with dual Brainleeches less ubiquitous.

Genestealers - the cult is a good step in the right direction. A formation that would allow them to assault the turn they entered play from reserve would make them great again IMO.

MCs - Boost the WS stats, drop the points in line with other codex MCs (50 pts for a tomb spyder...c'mon).

Warriors and other T4 synapse - Something needs to be done. T5 and 2 Wounds apiece for the same points, or add a rule that says "If a synapse creature would suffer instant death, it takes D3 wounds instead".

Just a few ideas. I'd like to see a new codex this year but nothing rumor-wise is pointing in that direction.

Warriors are still relatively fragile even ignoring instant death. T4 4+ for 10 points/wound isn't the most durable thing, and T5 4+ for 15 points/wound isn't that much better.

 Alaxandir wrote:
Do you guys have some general tactica for playing nids? I've watched tons of videos and read a lot of forums.. I just seem to lose almost all of my games.

In our local tourney I'm 1W 6L; some of you here may remeber I posted the rules on (pg 362 i believe)..

Anyway we're very restricted and I'm bringing what you guys had suggested I just think I'm playing wrong.. I played against IG today (AM.. whatever) and he had mostly infantry with two heavy weapon teams and a trio of chimeras.
I brought

Spoiler:

1000 Pts - Codex: Tyranids Roster

1 Lictor Brood

3 Pyrovore Brood

3 Ripper Swarm Brood - Deep Strike

30 Termagant Brood

2 Tervigon - Cluster Spines; Electroshock Grubs

1 Tyranid Prime - Bone Sword

1 Tyrannocyte - Barbed Stranglers

Neither of us saw eachothers lists before we met for the game, just got lucky with the pyrovores I guess. But my goal was to hide my stuff until my pod came in, he deployed in one corner and i deployed out of LOS in the other.
I got annihilated by his veterans with plasma and his autocannons/missiles.. and he is able to give his units Ignore Cover.. How can I play to deal with this?

The missions we rolled was Purge the alien, which really sucked for my list.. My pyrovore pod came in and really wrecked one of his units, and the pod did okay damage, but I lost with 1 kill point to his 7. I tried to walk the prime up the board with the gants and two tervigons, but he just castled up and gunned me down before I get within 12".

For the record, you need a group of 30 Termagants for each Tervigon to field it as a troop choice. You're up to 1 HQ and 4 MCs correct? Or have they went up again?
Perhaps something like-
HQ- Hive Tyrant(preferably with a long ranged weapon like a Stranglethorn to reach out and touch someone)
1 Tyrant Guard
30 Gants
Tervigon(perhaps equip one with a miasma cannon to deal with far range threats, or double up on templates to take on infantry that gets too close depending on your points)
30 Gants
Tervigon
Then pad out with Hive Guard/whatever.