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Well, at the moment many interested in DC have shelved their interest in DC until they can read the rules. He´s unnecessarily putting people on the fence and that might cost him potential customers.

I dont want to wait any longer than you do, but its best that they get this right and do things in the right order.

If that means still a full month waiting, I wait the month.
Life hasnt stopped, neither has gaming.

Well...that's not really true with the pre-order window for minis closing before the rules are released. Again, if the rules are at the printers, a PDF of them exists. Why not offer them....

I got the impression he was still finalizing the rules, and that they weren't yet printed. I don't know how long a small run of rulebooks takes to print, but my impression is definitely that they're not yet printed, although he has the rules mostly done, but is doing final tweaking.

Probably got the rules now, still adjusting points costs. As units have arbitrary abilities this can be difficult. How do you adequately price a dropship that provides mobility but negligible firepower, its hard to quantify methinks.

By having a public Beta Phase?

A public beta phase would be too hard to regulate, he'd end up getting tons of requests to make some units over powered or under powered, mixed in with the honest responses. Also, it would cost more time as it would have only started after the site went live which from what I understand was around the time printing began. Every day of public testing would push the final release back a day.

Also people would be guessing their TLOS with imaginary miniatures.

I don't like TLOS, but it can work if handled tightly.

So why do have other companies no problems with betas? Also, every game goes trough a final beta phase after it gets released, since no company can test a game more thoroughly than the gamers out there. If we are honest 1st edition is always the final beta.

Also: it would be additional advertising at no extra cost.

And would he be forced to integrate every single comment into the rules?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:So why do have other companies no problems with betas? Also, every game goes trough a final beta phase after it gets released, since no company can test a game more thoroughly than the gamers out there. If we are honest 1st edition is always the final beta.

Also: it would be additional advertising at no extra cost.

And would he be forced to integrate every single comment into the rules?

Because an open betas sequence is normally about 2-3 months.

Hawk has doe a beta, forced those involved into NDA's and kept it all quiet. The game was revealed at Salute this year, late April, website went up about a month later and now they are getting sdales and logistic infrastructure up against a ticking clock for a 27th July launch. Their market plan has already provided good marketing coverage, a good marketer knows not to burst the bubble on release with too many previews, it retards anticipation.

Firestorm Games and Maelstrom already have the game on pre-order. Other net suppliers are starting to load up. A lot is happening in a short space of time. I really really do not think they have the time to put into an open beta right now.

1st edition is a beta, yes thats true, Hawk has already said that any changes needed will be free .pdf and that the customer will not be expected to pay extra to cover the mistakes with a 1.1 rulebook.

Orlanth wrote: 1st edition is a beta, yes thats true, Hawk has already said that any changes needed will be free .pdf and that the customer will not be expected to pay extra to cover the mistakes with a 1.1 rulebook.

So bearing this in mind, why NOT release the rulebook now then?

Because he wants you to pay money for it instead of yanking it off of a website and making a .pdf of it?

Well, bursting the bubble with prices and good rules is a good thing, bursting the bubble without any rules but top-end prices is in my book not exactly a great idea.

I agree with you. I am eagerly waiting for the rules as well. This game is pretty hyped from what I have seen and I like the 10mm scale since I feel it is more realistic of warfare games than the scale that GW uses.

I am super hoping that the rules are not el terrible.

Like before, we just have to wait . It's a one-man show, and I think he's doing a great job thus far. I actually think he'll take the feedback and make a "quick start" version of the rules available, once he has them done!!

I think the only thing holding him back is working with all the distributors, etc... again, one-man show! Sounds like he'll take community feedback on the rules well, once he actually has them done, and release free updates on the website if needed.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Well, bursting the bubble with prices and good rules is a good thing, bursting the bubble without any rules but top-end prices is in my book not exactly a great idea.

Why does everyone think that the rules are going to bust. Most games that come out have the rules done way before the release but Hawk is making sure that they got EVERYTHING right. Think of them as what GW should be. A game creator that cares for their customers to the point of making sure everything that can be done to make this as close to perfect as possible is being done. That earns a tryout in my books regardless of how rules stack.

Because the beautiful models sell themselves, but the lack of rules previews in turn decrease sales.

More or less?

I don't think it is too hard to see why the "Extreme Opaque" approach to giving people a glimpse of the ruleset is causing some concern.

And yet people are rushing out in droves to preorder 40K 6th edition - a ruleset which (based on past performance) we all know full well will suck and which costs nearly as much as a starter set of models from Hawk Wargames.

It's not really comparable... besides, I'm getting both

RiTides wrote:It's not really comparable... besides, I'm getting both

No, you're right. GW's been consistently disappointing us with their rules since 1997. Not comparable to DZC at all in my opinion.

We all know that 6th edition is going to suck a whole big bag of ass and we're only getting it so we can keep playing with the man-dollies we've spent years collecting. For some reason, Hawk Wargames is being held to a much higher standard than GW and yet I think he's already passed them with the standard of his models. His rules cannot possibly be worse than GW's.

Less GW Hate thread. More DZC Dreams thread.

That said, I don't have much to do but wait for my terrain projects to show up until some more info gets leaked.

angryboy2k wrote:

RiTides wrote:It's not really comparable... besides, I'm getting both

No, you're right. GW's been consistently disappointing us with their rules since 1997. Not comparable to DZC at all in my opinion.

We all know that 6th edition is going to suck a whole big bag of ass and we're only getting it so we can keep playing with the man-dollies we've spent years collecting. For some reason, Hawk Wargames is being held to a much higher standard than GW and yet I think he's already passed them with the standard of his models. His rules cannot possibly be worse than GW's.

No. I've highlighted the reason that you stateyourself in bold. GW isn't introducting an entirely new system or entirely new models. They're offering a rules update. You're not going to need to buy a single model to play. Further, GW already has an expansive built in player base for 40k. Truly, if you want to be guaranteed to get some games of DZC in, you have to purchase two starters.

Its not that anyone thinks the rules are "going to be a bust," but, as Alpharius noted, the "extreme opaqueness" is concerning. Sure, there are going to be things FAMILIAR to miniatures gamers, but based on the Facebook FAQs, they present themselves as (perhaps) overly complex, at least at this point.

Further, as this thread has indicated, 10mm is an incredibly niche scale with little to zero "good" terrain being available right now, aside from the kits Hawk is producing (at some point) themselves. Not only that, but Hawk has mentioned in those FAQs that lots of terrain is going to be very important. I mean, were this a rural small-town America skirmish game, then sure plenty of suitable terrain exists; however, as it stands, it's a pretty shrewd marketing move to create a game in a very niche scale, announce terrain is very important, and be (effectively) the only supplier of "good" terrain for that niche in scale.

Seriously. I don't think it's unreasonble to expect a new game system to be more forthcoming with the rules before they start selling "army sets" that aren't, as admitted in the FB FAQs, unbalanced. Further, because it's a small operation, the lack or rules is keeping people away. What if when they finally release the rules, and the rules are a hit, they can't meet the new demand for product? That's certainly not a win. Honestly, I can't think of any reason releasing the rules would be a bad thing if the real income driver is the models.

While I don't disagree that releasing the rules wouldn't be a bad move, I would be doing it if it were my game, I also don't think it's going to cripple them. There may also be some sort of other issues (various legal, production, etc issues) preventing the release of the rules early that we may not be aware of.

Of far more egregious note I think is GW's treatment of 40k's 6th edition, putting out teasers but no real announcement until a week before launch (which still hasn't happened yet) and completely hamstringing stores on organizing pre-orders, events, etc, and leaving people completely unprepared for the edition change when it happens.

Either way, I'm familiar enough with the scale and the style of rules he's going for it sounds like (similar to Heavy Gear from what I can understand), that I didn't have a problem committing to a pre-order, though I also realize I'm a niche case.

Vaktathi wrote:
Of far more egregious note I think is GW's treatment of 40k's 6th edition, putting out teasers but no real announcement until a week before launch (which still hasn't happened yet) and completely hamstringing stores on organizing pre-orders, events, etc, and leaving people completely unprepared for the edition change when it happens.

How so? They gave the date of the announcement officially by trailer, what, 2 weeks ago? From the day of the announcement, they'll have the GW standard week to preorder. How are people going to be "completely unprepared for the edition change?" I mean, this isnt' a new game. Everyone is still going to have their models....

Besides, I never said it would do any crippling, but what it could do is leave them unprepared for increased demand by those waiting on rules. If supply is going to be an issue in the first place (and I imagine it will be with such a small operation) then misjudging your demand could be a big problem. They've already said that if you dont pre-order by the 9th that you won't get your minis delivered at launch....

cincydooley wrote:

How so? They gave the date of the announcement officially by trailer, what, 2 weeks ago?

The trailer wasn't an official announcement, it was just an eagle with a date. That's a teaser, a hint of a release, not an actual release announcement.

Keep in mind, GW still hasn't officially announced 6E 40k yet (unless the 3rd teaser had something new, haven't watched it yet)

From the day of the announcement, they'll have the GW standard week to preorder. How are people going to be "completely unprepared for the edition change?" I mean, this isnt' a new game. Everyone is still going to have their models....

With previous editions people knew lots of the changes quite clearly ahead of time, they were able to buy stuff and get their armies ready for the release date and thus had largely adjusted or were in the process of doing so. At this point, we still really don't have specifics on anything for 6E, it'll be out and instead of people being ready to go, they'll be sitting there "well...this doesn't work anymore...great".

With previous editions stores also had a lot longer to generate pre-orders and organize events. Not everyone can get into the shop every week (and there's only a 1 week window), and stores have no ability to pre-order anything until next monday when it releases the following weekend, and technically haven't even officially been told 6E is coming out.

So can't do pre-orders, can't reliably plan events, don't have time to get an accurate estimate for the number of books they should order, and they can't even be sure if they'll be able to order Collectors and Gamers editions. Those go on pre-sale this weekend. Stores can't order any until Monday. That means customers are under pressure to buy from GW direct and that stores may not get any in if they sell their copies out online over the weekend, so stores are largely cut out of that and customers unable to order online are cut off as well.

One will notice other companies give a lot more than even a couple weeks of notice of a new edition, usually at least a couple of months, many do open playtesting. Flames of War, D&D, Heavy Gear, Warmachine, etc all are/did/do open playtesting and many months of advance notice with weeks available for pre-orders, not a teaser two weeks ahead of time and pre-orders a week before release, and leaving everything else to internet rumors.

Besides, I never said it would do any crippling, but what it could do is leave them unprepared for increased demand by those waiting on rules.

I agree.

If supply is going to be an issue in the first place (and I imagine it will be with such a small operation) then misjudging your demand could be a big problem. They've already said that if you dont pre-order by the 9th that you won't get your minis delivered at launch....

Again, I agree, and I'd have done stuff differently, and I'd have liked to take a look over the rules as well, however given that this is a first release of a new company with no existing customer base and release hype, while high online, is pretty much limited to the online crowd for now at this point. I don't know anyone who doesn't frequent Dakka that know anything about it yet. So I think in this situation, it's not quite as bad. We still have a release date and general gameplay information months ahead of time, owners have plenty of time to organize events and get accurate counts for orders, nobody is having to adjust previously existing collections, etc.

And we have a decent idea of how the mechanics will work from the FAQ, even if there are no specifics, enough to have solidified my decision to buy it.

xole wrote:Less GW Hate thread. More DZC Dreams thread.

That said, I don't have much to do but wait for my terrain projects to show up until some more info gets leaked.

Thank you for this post, xole . You're only 26 in, but I like the cut of your jibe

More dreams, less hate!

Couple things that I think need to be mentioned.

First if you don't order by the 9th than there isn't a guarantee it will be shipped on the 27th. I think this is reasonable as they would have some stock but if the orders are large enough or a lot come in than that stock will run out. 20 days might seem like a lot to do the prep process but then we don't know a lot about the process.

Second releasing the rules as a stand alone PDF might not be something he has time for right now. From the sounds of it he's doing this all on his own. And while he might have sent it out to the printers already, it does not mean the rules are formatted in a way that is conducive for a quick read. It takes time for a company to release booklets of their rules in box armies. Until last year Warmachine had a poster for their quick rules. So while I would like a rule PDF I am not holding my breathe for one as I'd rather have a properly formatted rule PDF than one that looks like it was cut from the book.

That really all there is to it. Even if the rules suck, and there is a chance they will, or are hard to read, as English doesn't seem to be his first language, I know the community will try to fix them. Its a common side effect of having such pretty models.

BobofDoom wrote:Couple things that I think need to be mentioned.

First if you don't order by the 9th than there isn't a guarantee it will be shipped on the 27th. I think this is reasonable as they would have some stock but if the orders are large enough or a lot come in than that stock will run out. 20 days might seem like a lot to do the prep process but then we don't know a lot about the process.

That's sort of my point. By not releasing the rules they're alienating a potential customer base that wants to be interested in the game yet, but won't be because of the lack of rules. When this player base becomes interested because of the rules but then can't get product, what then?

Second releasing the rules as a stand alone PDF might not be something he has time for right now. From the sounds of it he's doing this all on his own. And while he might have sent it out to the printers already, it does not mean the rules are formatted in a way that is conducive for a quick read. It takes time for a company to release booklets of their rules in box armies. Until last year Warmachine had a poster for their quick rules. So while I would like a rule PDF I am not holding my breathe for one as I'd rather have a properly formatted rule PDF than one that looks like it was cut from the book.

Simply put, that's ridiculous. If the book is at the printers (and some people are suggesting that it may not be; thats a different story then) then he has them in a publishable format, most likely PDF or InDesign or perhaps even Quark. I'm beating a dead horse here, but to say that the PDF doesn't exist in an acceptable format, or that he doesn't have "time" to put it on the webstore; well that's just silly.

@Vaktathi - I think we agree on most points, save the release schedule part. Saying the trailer wasn't the "official" announcement is a bit disingenuous. We all knew it was. We all knew that's when the "official" announcement of it was coming because of that trailer. It's even more so now that all the pictures have leaked, etc.]

With previous editions people knew lots of the changes quite clearly ahead of time, they were able to buy stuff and get their armies ready for the release date and thus had largely adjusted or were in the process of doing so. At this point, we still really don't have specifics on anything for 6E, it'll be out and instead of people being ready to go, they'll be sitting there "well...this doesn't work anymore...great".

As for this, I just don't see it as a problem. I don't need to "buy anything to get my army ready for the release," nor do any of the people I play with. We already have our armies. But then, I'm not going to sit and devour the rulebook and look for the "power units" either. I'm going to have a few beers, fumble my way through the new rules with my buddies while hanging out. I'm actually glad I don't play with anything that's going to be butthurt that they couldn't pre-tailor their army to exploit the new rules. As for being concerned about the pre-ordering: I know our LGSs aren't feeling this phantom pressure you speak of. Again, the pre-order window has been status quo (right or wrong) with GW for the past year or so, so it isn't like it's unexpected.

But back to DZC. The lack of rules is killing me. I've had army bundles in the shopping basket with my PayPal account ready to go at least three times now. I can't pull the trigger without the rules. I have to believe there are others like me, so I wonder how many thousands of dollars Hawk is missing out on because of this.

@Hawk Wargames -- Post the rules. I'm practically begging you to take my money. Just post the rules.

cincydooley wrote:Simply put, that's ridiculous. If the book is at the printers (and some people are suggesting that it may not be; thats a different story then) then he has them in a publishable format, most likely PDF or InDesign or perhaps even Quark. I'm beating a dead horse here, but to say that the PDF doesn't exist in an acceptable format, or that he doesn't have "time" to put it on the webstore; well that's just silly.

If he was just going to release the whole rulebook, word for word, as a PDF, you'd be right.

but it takes time to go through and decide what bits can be safely removed without harming the integrity of the game system, then reflowing the remaining text into a nice layout and preparing that for distribution - that's at least a couple of days' work, and for a one-man operation, it's a couple of days that can't be spared.

Or are you seriously suggesting that Dave should just put the whole rulebook online for free and screw over everyone who paid £20+ to get the rules as early as possible?

Given the volume of hype and interest DZC has generated, I'm sure the few people folding their arms and pouting that they won't order until they're given free rules isn't of significant concern. In fact, it may be an advantage, artificially limiting preorders to within manageable levels until the preorder revenue can be funneled into sustainable production runs

Agreed- as a one man operation, it's not simple to create the distilled, gleaned amount of rules necessary to be a "starter set". I do think he should do so, but it's not instant / easy.