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Charax wrote:

Or are you seriously suggesting that Dave should just put the whole rulebook online for free and screw over everyone who paid £20+ to get the rules as early as possible?

Given the volume of hype and interest DZC has generated, I'm sure the few people folding their arms and pouting that they won't order until they're given free rules isn't of significant concern. In fact, it may be an advantage, artificially limiting preorders to within manageable levels until the preorder revenue can be funneled into sustainable production runs

I know of one company that dose this (atleast with the rule part)and it dose seem to hurt them. In fact I bought the books simply becouse there that good in fluff and pics, and to thank them with my wallet (the only way that really matters) for there great support of the player base.

Charax wrote:

cincydooley wrote:Simply put, that's ridiculous. If the book is at the printers (and some people are suggesting that it may not be; thats a different story then) then he has them in a publishable format, most likely PDF or InDesign or perhaps even Quark. I'm beating a dead horse here, but to say that the PDF doesn't exist in an acceptable format, or that he doesn't have "time" to put it on the webstore; well that's just silly.

If he was just going to release the whole rulebook, word for word, as a PDF, you'd be right.

but it takes time to go through and decide what bits can be safely removed without harming the integrity of the game system, then reflowing the remaining text into a nice layout and preparing that for distribution - that's at least a couple of days' work, and for a one-man operation, it's a couple of days that can't be spared.

Or are you seriously suggesting that Dave should just put the whole rulebook online for free and screw over everyone who paid £20+ to get the rules as early as possible?

I'll accept that you probably didn't read my earlier statements that, at the very least, Hawk could put it up as a download. They clearly have the store working.

That doesn't change the fact that IMO, for a new game system, it behooves the maker to at least have quickstart rules prepared if they plan on launching a game and not just a miniatures line.

But no, you're right, It's a much better idea to concern yourself with the one time $35 purchase than the $300 miniature sets and subsequent models people would purchase because they know what they're buying into. Right on.

Well, 40 pages in, at least they're getting a lot of press

I am looking forward to both the rules and a possible quickstart set of them. But worst case, we find out about them next month. Not bad for a game I didn't know existed 2 months ago!

RiTides wrote:Well, 40 pages in, at least they're getting a lot of press

I am looking forward to both the rules and a possible quickstart set of them. But worst case, we find out about them next month. Not bad for a game I didn't know existed 2 months ago!

Are they? The conversation this point seems to be driven by those of us, or maybe just me, that are clamoring for actual rules and people defending Dave (because everyone has regular beers with him, you know!) and a business decision that is A) potentially costing Hawk Wargames money, and B) could lead to a shortage in product due to a misrepresented demand.

I want to buy in. But at this point we have NO idea what we need. Further, Hawk has admitted that you can't simply buy two starters, as they aren't balanced against each other. The Privateer way is clearly the best way to get new folks into the product: Provide balanced starters that include quick start rules. They've done this since the game's inception, and did a TON of open demoing before the product launched.

You just can't say the same here.

cincydooley wrote:But no, you're right, It's a much better idea to concern yourself with the one time $35 purchase than the $300 miniature sets and subsequent models people would purchase because they know what they're buying into. Right on.

Could you stop being facetious for five minutes?

You're implying that they're mutually exclusive - they're not. once the game has been released (remember, it hasn't yet - I'm not aware of all that many games that put their whole ruleset online before release) then there's plenty of opportunity to put out PDF rules and get those $300 purchases. It doesn't need to happen in the preorder phase when things are already hectic

The only sales that Hawk will miss out on are the people whose interest was so fleeting that they can't actually wait until a game is released before buying things, or those who have such an entitlement complex that their purchase depends entirely on getting PDF rules before the people who have actually put down money get the book. Frankly, I'm not seeing the huge loss in either demographic.

PDF rules are coming, they're just not an absolute priority, and they certainly don't supersede the priority of getting books and models to those who have already put down orders without making additional demands

The thing is, cincydooley, a few folks saying they're not going to buy into the game because a condensed, starter version of the rules isn't available when the actual rules aren't even printed yet isn't really going to make or break them.

What is, is whether or not the rules are actually any good. And to me, that's certainly worth waiting a few more weeks for.

I understand that this is the internet, and we all want instant gratification (heck, I just found out that I can't stream The Big Bang Theory through any of the normal services... what a surprise, and a bummer!). But, in this case, we'll just have to wait, because it's not done yet... simple as that!

Charax wrote:

cincydooley wrote:But no, you're right, It's a much better idea to concern yourself with the one time $35 purchase than the $300 miniature sets and subsequent models people would purchase because they know what they're buying into. Right on.

The only sales that Hawk will miss out on are the people whose interest was so fleeting that they can't actually wait until a game is released before buying things, or those who have such an entitlement complex that their purchase depends entirely on getting PDF rules before the people who have actually put down money get the book. Frankly, I'm not seeing the huge loss in either demographic.

The interest isn't fleeting. If the interest was fleeting, I wouldn't care enough to post. Read my posts again: I'm willing TO PAY FOR A PDF OF THE RULES. The problem that is going to come of this is that, once the rules are in people's hands, it's too late to pre-order the models from Hawk. From there, there's no guarantee how quickly they'll be able to produce more miniatures for those that DID wait (and reasonably so) to look at the rules first. Again, Hawk has stated that there's no guarantee when miniatures ordered after July 9 will ship.

There's nothing entitled about that.

As far as other small manufacturer games: MANY offer the rules either A) for free online, B) at the very least online to download, or C) have quickstart rules. This includes, but is not limited to:

Ron & Bones
Relics
Bushido
Mantic
Avatars of War

Not to mention pretty much every major board game company. There's plenty of precedent here.

If any wargame is successful, it isn't due to how many books they sell, but rather the number of miniatures they sell. For like, the 27th time, as a new company, providing a digital look at the rules (either through purchase or for free) should be a priority. The quicker you sell people the on the rules, the sooner you have people buying $30 drop ships by the baker's dozen. Not providing an avenue to purchase the rules (and since you all seem to think I'm a dullard for suggesting a new company provide their rules for free, I'll emphasize again PURCHASE) before the game is released is incredibly short sighted, and I think the number of people waiting to buy in until they get a look at the rules is higher than you think.

Funny you mention AoW and Mantic, who were both selling miniatures for a long, long time before they even HAD a ruleset, let alone had a PDF - that somewhat undermines your argument that a set of available PDF rules is a vital prerequisite to sales.

Mantic starting out: Miniatures, no rules

AoW starting out: Miniatures, no rules

DZC starting out: Miniatures & rules, no PDF

Charax wrote:Funny you mention AoW and Mantic, who were both selling miniatures for a long, long time before they even HAD a ruleset, let alone had a PDF - that somewhat undermines your argument that a set of available PDF rules is a vital prerequisite to sales.

Mantic starting out: Miniatures, no rules

AoW starting out: Miniatures, no rules

DZC starting out: Miniatures & rules, no PDF

You're right. They started as small scale boutique miniature companies that produced miniatures intended to be used in other games

AoW sold heroes for armies. Mantic sold units. It's hardly an apples to apples argument.

As for the other companies that had minis intended for their own game: my comment stands.

But by all means, continue to ignore all the other points.

Charax wrote:Funny you mention AoW and Mantic, who were both selling miniatures for a long, long time before they even HAD a ruleset, let alone had a PDF - that somewhat undermines your argument that a set of available PDF rules is a vital prerequisite to sales.

They both had rulesets available before they released any miniatures. You might have heard of it, it's called Warhammer Fantasy.

cincydooley wrote:
The interest isn't fleeting. If the interest was fleeting, I wouldn't care enough to post. Read my posts again: I'm willing TO PAY FOR A PDF OF THE RULES. The problem that is going to come of this is that, once the rules are in people's hands, it's too late to pre-order the models from Hawk. From there, there's no guarantee how quickly they'll be able to produce more miniatures for those that DID wait (and reasonably so) to look at the rules first. Again, Hawk has stated that there's no guarantee when miniatures ordered after July 9 will ship.

Assuming there's no pdf, if the rules turn out to be good, will you still buy? Even if it means waiting beyond the preorder period?

angryboy2k wrote:

cincydooley wrote:
The interest isn't fleeting. If the interest was fleeting, I wouldn't care enough to post. Read my posts again: I'm willing TO PAY FOR A PDF OF THE RULES. The problem that is going to come of this is that, once the rules are in people's hands, it's too late to pre-order the models from Hawk. From there, there's no guarantee how quickly they'll be able to produce more miniatures for those that DID wait (and reasonably so) to look at the rules first. Again, Hawk has stated that there's no guarantee when miniatures ordered after July 9 will ship.

Assuming there's no pdf, if the rules turn out to be good, will you still buy? Even if it means waiting beyond the preorder period?

If the rules are good, then no question. I'm not married to needing a PDF. I'm totally a hardcover rulebook hoe. But PDFs make it easy to get them quickly, which I see as a benefit. As long as there's a concrete date for expectation, I'll buy. I probably won't be able to purchase the army deals, though, which is.... frustrating. Granted, it looks like both The War Store and Miniature Market are going to carry it, so that's a benefit.

My largest hope is that someone will be at Gen Con demoing it.

RiTides wrote:
What is, is whether or not the rules are actually any good. And to me, that's certainly worth waiting a few more weeks for.

I understand that this is the internet, and we all want instant gratification (heck, I just found out that I can't stream The Big Bang Theory through any of the normal services... what a surprise, and a bummer!). But, in this case, we'll just have to wait, because it's not done yet... simple as that!

I agree completely. There has to be some element of trust here, that if a group of guys has got together to make such stunning models, and the effort and money required, that they aren't going to make a set of rules that is absolutely appalling or just not bother in that regard?

The game development community is not a large one - for the most part it is made up of people who have sampled most other games out there, from historicals and GW games through to the more recent stuff like Malifaux and Infinity. It's perhaps why not a single other major game that has come along (at least over the past few years) has had anything other than a competent rule set.

There are arguments both for and against PDF rules - Infinity and Mantic have done it, but that was there decision, and there are plenty of companies who aren't offering it. Cinceydooley I think really you need to relax a little bit in any case, if I had to put down some money I would say that by looking at the efforts they are putting into the other areas of this operation the rules will most likely be perfectly competent at least.

I for one have plown in over £250 without seeing the rules.

Needless to say the models made me do it!


Anyways, can't wait to get them all and the book and start spreadin' the word locally!

The only sales that Hawk will miss out on are the people whose interest was so fleeting that they can't actually wait until a game is released before buying things, or those who have such an entitlement complex that their purchase depends entirely on getting PDF rules before the people who have actually put down money get the book. Frankly, I'm not seeing the huge loss in either demographic.

Working in this business for quite some time I dare to say that sadly this is not how it works.

With so many games coming out at the moment you really need to plan your purchases (Mantic, Sedition Wars, Zombicide, Dust Warfare, 6th Ed 40K, etc. anyone?) and if you buy into one of the competing products this money is probably quite a considerable sum. I.e. you will not invest again such a sum within the near future. DC being not the cheapest of games this does matter.

And it is promotional 101 that you don´t creat a hype to let it be followed by a 1 month lull. That is absolutly counterproductive. If DC were the only hot game at the moment that would not matter that much, but it is not. This year we are overrun by new games and some are really good. Taking into account how miniature production works if you do not have a generous investor behind you DC will be depending heavily on the sales of the first few months. It might work out for DC, but there is also a similar chance that it might not work out. So why not push it a little bit more in the work out direction.

And sorry, You can´t tell me that if you worked for over 2 years on a game and had a closed beta that you do not have a set of qick-rules somewhere. And if you don´t than you better check your whole concept. You don´t need quick-rules but it gives you an advantage against games without quick rules.

It's still astounding me that people are complaining about not being able to get hold of rules for a game that isn't even out yet.

As I've mentioned on another forum, what if (hypothetically) there was no pre-ordering? Hawk turned up at Salute, started putting their previews on Facebook, launched the website more as a gallery with info on the factions and a big sign saying "game launches 27th July". Would people complain about a lack of a pdf then?

The pre-order system has been put in as service for people willing to take a gamble on the game, and who are being rewarded for that gamble with guaranteed early miniatures.

Don't want to take part in that gamble? That's fine, you don't have to. You can wait until the game is released, check out online battle reports, reviews, maybe check out the downloadable preview rules (if they exist), etc etc, and make an informed decision at that time.

Riquende wrote:It's still astounding me that people are complaining about not being able to get hold of rules for a game that isn't even out yet.quote]

^This, QFT.

I think people saw how good the minis were, wanted them so bad that it snowballed into a sort of greediness.

I agree, Squidmanlolz.

However, I also think those saying a quickstart set of rules would be a good marketing idea are right. I think what they don't see is that it might just not be feasible at the moment- we have no way of knowing, really. From what he's mentioned, the rules are not going to be super simple.

He did mention putting up battle reports so hopefully he will be able to do so, to give folks a taste of the gameplay! The descriptions and Q&A went a really long way towards showing what the game will be like, but obviously a battle report would be even better.

@cincydooley Asking for a straight PDF of the book is fine. I will be a little disappointed if he doesn't have a PDF of the book is only because I'd like to have it on my tablet too.

@Duncan_Idaho while he might have some form of quick start rules written up, it might have been that Dave taught the people and the quick starter rules were more for checking facts. They might be great to teach someone or they might just confuse people.

I would love a PDF of the rules. I would love a PDF of the book. But since to remove the rules from the book requires formatting and assuming he is still working alone, it wouldn't be the highest thing on his priority. He still has to think about filling orders, making excess product, setting up vendors, any cons coming up, any editing needed to be done, modding the site in anyway, troubleshooting any last minute problems... Basically the guy is busy. So what I really want to know is why he's still doing this by himself?

The biggest thing is that if the book is done as a PDF he can't release it yet because that will anger those who preorder the hard cover and cut into book sales. I wish he'd release the book earlier. Also I'm only defending him because I hope he's a decent businessman and a good person. If the game turn out to be complete crap I'll flame him as much as he deserves. (apprx. $400 worth of flaming)

@cincydooley: It seems a bit of a contradiction that you're suggesting DC's approach will cost them customers (citing your own frustration) whilst also suggesting that if the rules turn out to be good you'll buy it anyway.

I personally think, like others, a quick start PDF doesn't exist and trying to distil the rules down would take both a significant amount of time or he just feels it wouldn't play the way it's intended. Remember, whilst the whole auteur approach has massive upsides in terms of quality, support and cohesive vision it also has its downsides (the biggest seemingly being Dave trying to do everything himself).

I'd like to see a PDF version available to download if you've purchased the rules but implementing this and preventing it from being abused could possibly take more time and expertise then what's currently on hand.

I think it's a shame he hasn't got a gaming group to make a high quality video bat rep. Using his miniatures and scenery it would have looked fantastic and it would demonstrate the rules and flavour without giving away specifics.

Orlanth wrote:Well grammaton clerics can do house clearance or assassinations both, as evident in the film. Sirens are very similar, one skilled operate, several roles.

As elite troops there is no limit to what Sirens might end up doing, from infiltration to hostage rescue, possibly even some forms of civil emergency rescue work. Still they are primarily room clearers and assassins, with the former being their on tabletop role.

I certainly have no arguments over how they fight and how they would act in the specific battlefield environment of DC. My only criticism of the Equilibrium analogy was that I view the clerics more of a fanatical pseudo-religious enforcer, operating from a strict black-or-white code as opposed to the political shadows and shades of grey I feel the Sirens represent. Either way they're a great concept.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Riquende wrote:It's still astounding me that people are complaining about not being able to get hold of rules for a game that isn't even out yet.

^This, QFT.

I think people saw how good the minis were, wanted them so bad that it snowballed into a sort of greediness.

Let me analogize this a bit, then. I have no problem buying minis for games that are far, far off. I bought SDE metals 2 Years ago at GenCon knowing the game was relatively far off. I've been buying Relic Knights for about that same span. I picked up 3 or 4 Wrath of Kings minis at Adepticon this year.

We knew those games were coming "down the road," so I didn't really have any hesitation purchasing them. I think there are two main differences for me here.

1) After thinking about my previous "boutique" purchases, I realized none of them were vehicles, and certainly none of them were in this scale. I think, for me, despite the fact that these are really nice 10mm vehicles, they're still 10mm vehicles. I'm not sure that I would buy them to paint and display on their own merits, whereas I'd jump on a Relic Knight in an instant. This is defnitely matter of personal taste, and is no way intended to be disparaging towards DZC. If I don't like the rules, I may still buy a Shaltari Jaguar or a PHR walker, but I wouldn't buy much more than that.

2) Knowing the rules exist but having no concept of army construction with the express statement by Hawk that the starter boxes aren't balanced is really quite frustrating. We know that, according to the FB, normal, full rules games will be "around 1500-2000 points." But this statement tells us nothing because there's no context for points. Is a dropship 20 points or 200 points? We dunno.

With all that being said, no, I don't think I'm being unreasonable or greedy. I disagree with those of you that say the rules shouldn't be provided in some fashion before the game launches, but that's okay. Without differing opinions these forums would look like the League Of Legends forums right now (and seriously, if you haven't been there during Riots server fiasco, you should go; pure hilarity), and thats no good for anyone.

@cincydooley: It seems a bit of a contradiction that you're suggesting DC's approach will cost them customers (citing your own frustration) whilst also suggesting that if the rules turn out to be good you'll buy it anyway.

I don't think its a contradiction simply because there's a real worry that, once I get the rules and like the rules, I won't be able to get the models easily. We've seen production problems with Privateer happen in response to high demand, so it isn't unreasonable to think Hawk may as well, considering, as EVERYONE has stated, they're a one man operation. I think Catalysts Leviathan is a good (but sad) example that had enormous hype, but the inability to get the product to market has crippled what could have been a huge success. The rules could be exceptional, but if I can't get the product because I didn't buy in at the pre-order, I'm never going to be able to utilize those rules....

cincydooley wrote:

2) Knowing the rules exist but having no concept of army construction with the express statement by Hawk that the starter boxes aren't balanced is really quite frustrating. We know that, according to the FB, normal, full rules games will be "around 1500-2000 points." But this statement tells us nothing because there's no context for points. Is a dropship 20 points or 200 points? We dunno.

I have bought in but the snip of your post cincydooley explains what I'm most worried about to a T.

Yes, I'll be buying in as well but it would give a lot more peace of mind to know how many points are in the sets, etc.

Also, the example of Super Dungeon Explore is hopefully not too analogous. I have a number of friends who bought it and turned out to be disappointed with the rules, despite the super-high cuteness factor of the models

Yeah, I don't know if I came off as overly antagonistic, but it wasn't intended. I think most of us are actually in the same boat here. I am excited for the game, but I need to see the rules before I can buy in so I know what to.

And while I said I wasn't sure I'd buy that many of these minis for the sake of the minis themselves, a painted 6mm/10mm scale is really, really fun to paint and display. So, in effect, I'd certainly display them proudly as an army, but I can't convince myself to buy an army until I know the rules are decent serviceable and fun.

My biggest rules concern is that it's going to be overly complex. I enjoy the Spartan Games, but, despite liking the Dystopian Wars models FAR better than the Uncharted Seas ones, we play more Uncharted Seas because the rules are a bit less muddled. I like beer with my games, and complex rulesets and alcohol don't always make for the easiest of bedfellows.

Is there a tournament planned for the week after release? Seems like a lot of people are worried about having matched point forces and balanced lists during the time period I'm going to be learning the basics of the game, using whatever models I (and my opponent) have got at the time.

Well, Riquende, that's one way to do it certainly. However, myself and 4 friends are all buying in, and mostly getting the "large" sets... however, if there's a large points disparity (as he does imply a bit) between the sets, it'd be helpful to know so that we can make sure the guy picking up Scourge (which might be me ) can play against the others, without having to have the others leave out a bunch of models.

Looks interesting enough, very sci-fi...have to watch this game grow.

With 6th edition showing a vast improvement to infantry, i am seriously considering a proxy army of UCM tanks as an imperial guard army of cybots.

RiTides wrote:Well, Riquende, that's one way to do it certainly. However, myself and 4 friends are all buying in, and mostly getting the "large" sets... however, if there's a large points disparity (as he does imply a bit) between the sets, it'd be helpful to know so that we can make sure the guy picking up Scourge (which might be me ) can play against the others, without having to have the others leave out a bunch of models.

From what I reckon three armies are on rough parity of tech quality, with UCM being the poor relations. UCM will need to buy extra to keep pace in points, that is almost certain, I am not sure about anyone else.

I'm tired of all the griping now. You guys can look on it all as negatively as you like, I don't care. I've got a PHR army coming, I've got the rules coming and I'm excited about both.

In the meantime I'll be playing other games, painting other miniatures, and generally not caring about the fact that I might have to drop a few walkers from my first few games because I don't currently know the points costs of everything.