40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**ERJAK**

Mezmerro wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If they were going to raise some stats over 10, LD should have been one of them with this new mechanic. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case... Marines have LD7... How low are some other units LD going to be?

They also mentioned Dark Apostle having Ld10 ad spreading it arount himself in a bubble.
WIth 10-men cultist squads they're gonna be as good as fearless in that bubble.

The way this system works in AoS, most armies have a way to get around battleshock; much like in 40k, the difference is that INHERENT immunity is almost non-existent. You want to be battleshock immune you can be, but it requires forethought, investment and in game strategy to actually pull off.

Stormcasts have a leader that give them 24" immunity to battleshock if he's your general, but he's 220 points and having him as your general means you can't benefit from other powerful general abilities. It also means that if he gets sniped you're now completely vulnerable to morale and likely in an overextended position.

It also doesn't hurt big units as much as people think it does, it just means you have to think about your blob squad instead of fire and forget.

**insaniak**

Alpharius wrote:
That’s it! No units falling back, no regroup tests – all that is gone.

This isn't a selling point for me.

Indeed. Not a fan.

**casvalremdeikun**

For Space Marines it looks like a Chaplain is going to basically be mandatory if his rules mirror the Dark Apostle. I would be willing to bet that things like Sergeants have higher leadership than their Squads and you use the highest leadership in a unit. Same with Ork Nobs, Eldar Exarchs, etc.

**necrontyrOG**

Anybody seen this yet?

**axisofentropy**

necrontyrOG wrote:
Anybody seen this yet?

wow I thought they wouldn't touch 30k, at least for a while.

**Kanluwen**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
For Space Marines it looks like a Chaplain is going to basically be mandatory if his rules mirror the Dark Apostle. I would be willing to bet that things like Sergeants have higher leadership than their Squads and you use the highest leadership in a unit. Same with Ork Nobs, Eldar Exarchs, etc.

I would be really surprised if that were the case, but it might be something like:

A unit containing an <insert name here> can add 1 to any rolls for Battleshock.

I also don't expect the Chaplain to mirror the Dark Apostle exactly. The Chaplain might allow for ignoring Battleshock tests in a smaller radius(6" to the Dark Apostle's 12") while the Dark Apostle allows for using his Leadership, for example.

**Rippy**

v0iddrgn wrote:
I have no doubt that Mob Rule or Synapse or Commisars will negate the problems with the new Morale tests against horde styled armies.

You should doubt that, I imagine these just add leadership

**frozenwastes**

Vaktathi wrote:it will inherently already require patching in codex books

There will be no patching. Instead there will be total rewrites. If you want to see how far the rewrites will go, compare a Warhammer Fantasy Battle 8th Edition Army Book entry with an Age of Sigmar Warscroll.

Oni wrote:I'm upset at the notion that this edition may have been heavily influenced by entities that prefer a vastly different play style than my own.

Given the narrative content in the last few 40k books as well as the multiple campaign books for Age of Sigmar, something tells me that you'll have loads of content for narrative play. And with a new general points system, it'll be easier than ever to modify an existing battle plan to use whatever models you want. So if a "last stand" type scenario has 20 marines and a dreadnought defending against a ton of daemons, you'll be able to use the scenario with say 500 points of defender and 1000 of attacker. Or if you don't need the general points system, then don't use it. I highly doubt the addition of guideline type points or the playtesting of matched play by tournament people will somehow diminish what GW is already doing for narrative approaches.

**casvalremdeikun**

Kanluwen wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
For Space Marines it looks like a Chaplain is going to basically be mandatory if his rules mirror the Dark Apostle. I would be willing to bet that things like Sergeants have higher leadership than their Squads and you use the highest leadership in a unit. Same with Ork Nobs, Eldar Exarchs, etc.

I would be really surprised if that were the case, but it might be something like:

A unit containing an <insert name here> can add 1 to any rolls for Battleshock.

I also don't expect the Chaplain to mirror the Dark Apostle exactly. The Chaplain might allow for ignoring Battleshock tests in a smaller radius(6" to the Dark Apostle's 12") while the Dark Apostle allows for using his Leadership, for example.

I would be fine with that. A Squad Sergeant is the leader after all. If Independent Characters can't join units anymore (not confirmed), they better do things like give bonuses to Morale tests.

**Rippy**

Interesting NecrontyrOG

**JohnnyHell**

Space Marines will have the "And They Shall Not Just Bugger Off Mid-Battle" rule, most probs. Shortened to ATSNJBOMB for forums.

**CthuluIsSpy**

necrontyrOG wrote:
Anybody seen this yet?

Oh that's nice, they posted a warning.
That's pretty decent of them, actually. I appreciate that.

**Spoletta**

Ignoring battleshock is an extremely powerful ability, and very few models actually can bestow that rule (and they always cost a lot). Synapse will probably give LD10 to lesser bugs.

Anyway, AoS morale rules don't sit well with casualties taken from the front and with ICs in units, so i can think we can safely assume those rules are not in 8th.

We can already see that the dark apostle has an aura based ability.

**Rippy**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Space Marines will have the "And They Shall Not Just Bugger Off Mid-Battle" rule, most probs. Shortened to ATSNJBOMB for forums.

I am guessing this was just a joke, but it sounds like they are not immune to this rule.

**Spoletta**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
For Space Marines it looks like a Chaplain is going to basically be mandatory if his rules mirror the Dark Apostle. I would be willing to bet that things like Sergeants have higher leadership than their Squads and you use the highest leadership in a unit. Same with Ork Nobs, Eldar Exarchs, etc.

I would be really surprised if that were the case, but it might be something like:

A unit containing an <insert name here> can add 1 to any rolls for Battleshock.

I also don't expect the Chaplain to mirror the Dark Apostle exactly. The Chaplain might allow for ignoring Battleshock tests in a smaller radius(6" to the Dark Apostle's 12") while the Dark Apostle allows for using his Leadership, for example.
I would be fine with that. A Squad Sergeant is the leader after all. If Independent Characters can't join units anymore (not confirmed), they better do things like give bonuses to Morale tests.

Different LD values inside a single unit? I don't think so.

Sergeants will not have a profile, it will be a rule of the unit. "One model of this unit can be a sergeant. A sergeant has a bonus of +1 on ranged hit rolls".

**Tannhauser42**

axisofentropy wrote:
necrontyrOG wrote:
Anybody seen this yet?

wow I thought they wouldn't touch 30k, at least for a while.

It's Forgeworld. "For awhile" will likely be quite accurate. It's just nice they posted a warning.

**casvalremdeikun**

Spoletta wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
For Space Marines it looks like a Chaplain is going to basically be mandatory if his rules mirror the Dark Apostle. I would be willing to bet that things like Sergeants have higher leadership than their Squads and you use the highest leadership in a unit. Same with Ork Nobs, Eldar Exarchs, etc.

I would be really surprised if that were the case, but it might be something like:

A unit containing an <insert name here> can add 1 to any rolls for Battleshock.

I also don't expect the Chaplain to mirror the Dark Apostle exactly. The Chaplain might allow for ignoring Battleshock tests in a smaller radius(6" to the Dark Apostle's 12") while the Dark Apostle allows for using his Leadership, for example.
I would be fine with that. A Squad Sergeant is the leader after all. If Independent Characters can't join units anymore (not confirmed), they better do things like give bonuses to Morale tests.

Different LD values inside a single unit? I don't think so.

Sergeants will not have a profile, it will be a rule of the unit. "One model of this unit can be a sergeant. A sergeant has a bonus of +1 on ranged hit rolls".

Except the Sergeants of damn near every Space Marine unit have completely different loadouts than the rest of the Squad. He is going to have his own profile just like the leader unit in a Stormcast Eternal unit has his own. Possibly might have more than just a higher leadership, maybe more attacks.

**oni**

Kanluwen wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
oni wrote:
I however prefer strong narrative play over tournament play and the new core rules feel as though they're heavily weighed towards tournament play, despite the "3 ways to play". So far all we know about narrative play is that it's just a simplification of unit points. I'm in part attributing the tournament feel of 8th edition to those entities that play tested and provided feedback to GW. I feel as though the feedback from FLG, NOVA and Adepticon may have been bias to their preferred style of play and that's upsetting to me.

A strongly balanced core set of rules is far better for everyone involved. Yes, this includes casual narrative focused players. When you have a strong set of balanced rules, you need to care even less that you're not taking highly unoptimized things.

"But I don't care if things are bad!"

Well, it's better for the game if they aren't bad and they provide a reasonable function to your army.

You know what isn't "far better for everyone involved"?

When one of the "3 ways to play" becomes the de facto way to play because everyone assumes it's the most balanced.

Even when it clearly is not.

Exactly! When is the last time we've seen AoS played any other way than Matched Play?

Red Corsair wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
oni wrote:

Profit does not always need to equal "I'm rich bitch!" status, but there's obviously enough incentive there to keep doing these events.

Like genuinely liking 40k and enjoying to share that with others by organizing events for it and having fun? Your attempts to create a "they are just greedy and doing it for benefits!" narrative is getting more and more forced every time you post about it.

I am SURE they do it because they love the game, but I am a bit disgusted by the notion that if someone makes a profit doing something they love then they somehow are greedy or less likeable. I haven't read every post by oni so I am not defending him, and i am not calling you out here, i have see this before though from others.

I mean, it takes a special type of naive to think they aren't turning a profit and are only doing it for the community. Why not both? It isn't bad to make money doing something good that you love after all, it's what everyone dreams of doing in fact.

Simple logic here but whats an LVO ticket, $85 last I checked, ~500 in the main event, that's $42,500.00 from the one event of how many? Plus are other games in 4 days. Use a hotel in it's off season and guarantee to fill 2-3 room blocks and they will comp yours and your staffs rooms plus discount the hall if not comp that as well. Next hurdle is terrain, but luckily the Frontline crew in particular have grown as a business as well as an event and now sell terrain and mats meaning they can use inventory for the event then sell it off after rather then store it all year. Them making a profit is awesome they deserve it. Never understood why it's perceived as scummy by part of the community to make a profit running major tournaments.

Red Corsair, you seem to be in my camp on this one. Mr. Ragnar Blackmane has unfortunately grossly misinterpreted what I wrote.

**RiTides**

No more discussions of convention costs, etc here!

This is the 8th edition rules thread. To discuss other tangential topics please start a thread in the Dakka Discussions, 40k General Discussion, or Tournaments Discussion forums.

Further OT posts may be edited / deleted to keep this thread on track.

**Melissia**

So basically everyone has Mob Rule? Huh.

**Kirasu**

Sounds like the best armies will be the ones that pack the most weapons into minimum units. Such a terrible way to go, who wanted 4th Ed no retreat applied to every morale test?

**oni**

labmouse42 wrote:
oni wrote:
Hey everyone... Just remember that 8th edition Tournament-Hammer has been play tested thoroughly by the most knowledg... errm, 'popular' tournament organizers in the whole community.

I mean... Surely these guys know what they're doing and aren't in the least bit bias to their organizations for-profit events.

[/sarcasm]

Love it or hate it... GW put a whole lot of credence into these tournament organizers to speak for ALL of us. And will seemingly continue to do so. While I'm sure that the guys at FLG and behind Nova and Adepticon are great individuals, I'm rather upset that they seemingly had such a strong influence on 8th edition. To me it really does feel like Tournament-Hammer.
You know the guys that run those events are not walking away with buckets of cash, right? The guys that put on those events are volunteers who donate their time and energy to making the game awesome.

Even companies like FLG that did the playtesting have a financial incentive to make the game as balanced as possible. How is that a bad thing?

I really don't care about the extent of their profits. That wasn't the point behind my sarcastic comment.

**Daedalus81**

casvalremdeikun wrote:

Except the Sergeants of damn near every Space Marine unit have completely different loadouts than the rest of the Squad. He is going to have his own profile just like the leader unit in a Stormcast Eternal unit has his own. Possibly might have more than just a higher leadership, maybe more attacks.

**Melissia**

I'm sure each army will find a way to reduce this or make it unique to them. Orks will probably get bonuses to their leadership for unit size for example, guard might be able to use Orders to modify it, and Marines might roll twice and take the lowest because of ATSKNF-- things like that.

But the thing is, they want morale to be relevant to all armies. Not just a few rare ones like Guard. And TBH I think this is one of the better ways they could have done that.

**Spoletta**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
For Space Marines it looks like a Chaplain is going to basically be mandatory if his rules mirror the Dark Apostle. I would be willing to bet that things like Sergeants have higher leadership than their Squads and you use the highest leadership in a unit. Same with Ork Nobs, Eldar Exarchs, etc.

I would be really surprised if that were the case, but it might be something like:

A unit containing an <insert name here> can add 1 to any rolls for Battleshock.

I also don't expect the Chaplain to mirror the Dark Apostle exactly. The Chaplain might allow for ignoring Battleshock tests in a smaller radius(6" to the Dark Apostle's 12") while the Dark Apostle allows for using his Leadership, for example.
I would be fine with that. A Squad Sergeant is the leader after all. If Independent Characters can't join units anymore (not confirmed), they better do things like give bonuses to Morale tests.

Different LD values inside a single unit? I don't think so.

Sergeants will not have a profile, it will be a rule of the unit. "One model of this unit can be a sergeant. A sergeant has a bonus of +1 on ranged hit rolls".

Except the Sergeants of damn near every Space Marine unit have completely different loadouts than the rest of the Squad. He is going to have his own profile just like the leader unit in a Stormcast Eternal unit has his own. Possibly might have more than just a higher leadership, maybe more attacks.

Read again, no leader in AoS has his profile.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-decimators-en.pdf
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-prostecutorhammers-en.pdf
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//warhammer-aos-liberators-en.pdf

**Daedalus81**

Doh, I missed the "not". My bad!

**angelofvengeance**

I hope guys like Chaplains have like battle prayers

.

**Whirlwind**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
necrontyrOG wrote:
Anybody seen this yet?

Oh that's nice, they posted a warning.
That's pretty decent of them, actually. I appreciate that.

That's really weird because on the Forgeworld website we have this statement under all the books...

A new, updated edition of Warhammer 40,000 is arriving soon.

Games set during The Horus Heresy using Forge World's Battles in the Age of Darkness expansion will continue to use the rules set out in the current edition of Warhammer 40,000. Please check our Facebook page for further information.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-Seven-Inferno

So a bit of confusion and lack of communication going on here.

**casvalremdeikun**

@Spoletta Provided that they even keep the same look as an AoS data sheet, what would stop them from having it say that a Space Marine Sergeant has a Leadership of 8?

**Spoletta**

The fact that in a 12 page ruleset they would have to specify what happens when you start mixing stats.