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 koooaei wrote:
Here's a short (really short) game of ig vs sm.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729779.page

Wow, such an epic game! The twists! The turns! I was gripped from beginning to end.

(-:

Seriously though, I always feel pretty horrible when I slaughter the enemy like that. It just seems boring.

Hey guys, I'm thinking about adding more and more Astra Militarum units to my AdMech as time passes, I think I'll focus on being able to run a Brigade Detachment for those sweet 9 CP. Thing is I need to fill Fast Attack slots and the options of the AdMech currently are the Dragoons and Ballistarii, both being quite expensive in money for a small cost in points and a doubtful efficiency. I own one Dragoon but I'd like to fill the 2 other slots with Hellhounds, thinking about the Bane Wolf variant, with a Chem Cannon and maybe a Multi-Melta, that raises the cost to 108 points per vehicle. What do you think of this ?

Also, was curious about the efficiency of Bullgryns, I love the models but I have no idea how they perform (let's talk without a transport for now), and which loadout is the best for them. They look impressive with the CC weapons but I don't know what they'll go fight with it.

I still haven't got round to playing a game yet, although my stuff arrived today so it shouldn't be long. I am looking forward to using hellhounds though, they seem really fun. I will probably go with inferno cannon and flamer, so that I don't take the -1 to hit on a melta. I also like the fact the hellhound explodes on a 4+, so you can be really aggressive with it and hopefully take something out in the explosion.

I believe the cheapest Fast Attack units available to IG are the sentinels, which you can take either variant with a weapon for under 50 points.

Bullgryns I have not made use of yet in 8th, but I actually used them a lot in 7th and got enough use from them. Hilariously, the mauls are now cheaper than the grenade gauntlets, so I'd probably tend towards CC-focused now. You can mix and match weapon and shield, so you can take the invul or improved armor save with the maul, and both of these saves are better than they were in 7th. I'd take the 4++ if you're expecting lots of/very high ap, otherwise 2+ is looks pretty awesome too. Optimal shield choice may also depend on the makeup of the rest of your army. If you've got lots of tanks or a super heavy, they probably won't waste their best ap weapons on some Bullgryns, go 2+. In an infantry heavy armor, the opposite may hold true, so go 4++. I'm tempted to try dropping 4 from a valk when I get to test their capabilities.

 Trickstick wrote:
The demolisher actually as a reasonable gun on it, although it is pretty expensive. I would take one with three flamers and use it very aggressively. Decent overwatch and can move around without penalty. I guess a punisher would work too. Really, I'm looking forward to running triple flamers on any russ that wants to move.

Interesting idea... Are really any other sponsons worth it at all for tanks that'll be mobile?

 trephines wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The demolisher actually as a reasonable gun on it, although it is pretty expensive. I would take one with three flamers and use it very aggressively. Decent overwatch and can move around without penalty. I guess a punisher would work too. Really, I'm looking forward to running triple flamers on any russ that wants to move.

Interesting idea... Are really any other sponsons worth it at all for tanks that'll be mobile?

Well bolters are not too bad on the move, they are pretty cheap and you don't lose much from a -1 compared to plasma/melta.

As for sentinels, I like the idea of scout sentinels with flamers. You get a scout move, which you can use to expand your 9" zone of no-deepstrike. You also get to run into things, flame them and kick them. If you like you can take a chainsaw, although it seems pointless for just -1ap with 1 attack.

I find myself really loving heavy flamers in this edition. I think I understand why they are so many points. That -1 to hit is bad for Space Marines, but for Guard it is really a lot more painful.

 Trickstick wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Here's a short (really short) game of ig vs sm.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729779.page

Wow, such an epic game! The twists! The turns! I was gripped from beginning to end.

(-:

Seriously though, I always feel pretty horrible when I slaughter the enemy like that. It just seems boring.

I was on the recieving end vs scion comsquad spam 2 times. 1-st time with orks - they managed to win cause hores are less vulnerable to plasma drops (although scions made their points back in 1 turn vs stormboyz that were too far from a boss to keep order). But my sm list had 0 chances. I'm thinking we got to house-rule scion comsquads to require an actual commander or cost more points.

Cheapest "Imperial" Fast Attack for the Brigade attachment are the Space Wolf - Cyberwolves (which actually meshes well with your Admech themed army. (15 pts. per, so 45 for the Fast attack tax) if you went with AM exclusively Scout Sentinels or bare bones Rough riders are the cheapest options.

Bullygruns are extremely resilient with a mix and match of ++4, and +2 shields a Taurox prime (Gatling and Autocannons w/ Storm Bolter) is only doing 2 wounds to 1 model. and a scion plasma boat (4 Plasmaguns and 5 Hot Shot Lasers) only drops 5 wds total with overcharge.

Their dmg output is reasonable (basically 2 Autocannons per model on the charge with the maul) but wont blow dedicated assault off the floor. overall they are not a bad counter charge unit for their price.

Personally I think scout sentinels are the way to go. For 45 points they fill a fast attack slot and with their scout move provide a solid bubble for deep strike denial. Give them a multi-laser. IF they dont drop turn one then you just pop smoke for turn two.

 Leth wrote:
Personally I think scout sentinels are the way to go. For 45 points they fill a fast attack slot and with their scout move provide a solid bubble for deep strike denial. Give them a multi-laser. IF they dont drop turn one then you just pop smoke for turn two.

I'd go for the 52 pt flamer version. You get so much more firepower. Also, you can pop smoke turn 1 if nothing is in range.

 Leth wrote:
Personally I think scout sentinels are the way to go. For 45 points they fill a fast attack slot and with their scout move provide a solid bubble for deep strike denial. Give them a multi-laser. IF they dont drop turn one then you just pop smoke for turn two.

Ah, I miswrote what I'd like with my army, I'm looking for models that are a good deal money and points wise, the reason I don't like Ironstriders that much is because of their questionable efficiency on the battlefield, their cheap point cost and their expensive price in money, I don't want to have to buy lots of a single model that are so expensive (yeah I'm playing Budgethammer for the moment), so I looked at the Hellhounds because for one they are faster and more versatile in their loadout options, while being a quite tough model and with a point cost that justifies its price in money. See what I mean ?

I bought my Start Collecting Scions today, going to mount the Command Squad half plasma half melta, Tempestor Prime with Command Rod, and the regular squad with either flamers or Volley Guns. Going to play mostly my regular squad + Lord Commisar in the Taurox while dropping the Command Squad + Tempestor if the conditions on the table are right.

You could buy a blister of 5 Finecast plasma guns, they will add a lot of value to your scions squads by releasing a lot of firepower for cheap.
I've run some numbers on scions guns, and seriously, plasma is too good for the price.

 koooaei wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Here's a short (really short) game of ig vs sm.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729779.page

Wow, such an epic game! The twists! The turns! I was gripped from beginning to end.

(-:

Seriously though, I always feel pretty horrible when I slaughter the enemy like that. It just seems boring.

I was on the recieving end vs scion comsquad spam 2 times. 1-st time with orks - they managed to win cause hores are less vulnerable to plasma drops (although scions made their points back in 1 turn vs stormboyz that were too far from a boss to keep order). But my sm list had 0 chances. I'm thinking we got to house-rule scion comsquads to require an actual commander or cost more points.

I guess it pays to read...I've been using 10 man scion squads to get me my 4 plasma guns Won't be doing that again!

 koooaei wrote:
I'm thinking we got to house-rule scion comsquads to require an actual commander or cost more points.

Rumours point to that being an official thing.

So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :

Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.


vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926


vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778


vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630


vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519


vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537

vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556


Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667


Houston, we've got a problem !

Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.

I have always run the LR without sponsons, and that's not going to change in 8th. I wonder how just Nobody does the same (but I have to say, that I do it for background and because I don't like the look of tanks with sponsons).

 Ravajaxe wrote:

Spoiler:

So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :

Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.


vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926


vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778


vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630


vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519


vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537

vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556


Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667


Houston, we've got a problem !

Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.

Now what is the math if you are pushed out beyond 14-15 inches? Many players will start having bubble wraps that prevent your plasma from getting into range on the drop.

 Ravajaxe wrote:


Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.

The AM guns are priced for BS 4+, but handed out to command squads with BS 3+. It works with veterans because they have a tax of 10 models. With the 5 models of command squads it becomes rediculous, especially with Scions who can deep strike and can't be killed before they deliver (what is pretty easy with T3 4+ W 1 models)

 Leth wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:

Spoiler:

So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :

Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.


vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926


vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778


vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630


vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519


vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537

vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556


Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667


Houston, we've got a problem !

Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.

Now what is the math if you are pushed out beyond 14-15 inches? Many players will start having bubble wraps that prevent your plasma from getting into range on the drop.

My strategy will be to kill the bubble wrap with my wyverns and taurox primes before the scions drop in to decimate their vehicles

 necron99 wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:

Spoiler:

So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :

Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.


vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926


vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778


vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630


vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519


vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537

vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556


Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667


Houston, we've got a problem !

Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.

Now what is the math if you are pushed out beyond 14-15 inches? Many players will start having bubble wraps that prevent your plasma from getting into range on the drop.

My strategy will be to kill the bubble wrap with my wyverns and taurox primes before the scions drop in to decimate their vehicles

That means a minimum of 1-2 turns off the table with them having nothing to then replace the holes in their bubble wrap. I just need to bubble wrap during your movement phase, if you shoot them off after its not as much of a big deal. Meanwhile all of their damage dealers are still going while you are focusing on the bubble wrap.

Not saying its not a solid strategy, just something to think about.

I figure there's probably not much difference between 1-2 turns off the table waiting for chaff to clear, and 1-2 turns walking up the table or 1-2 turns sitting in a transport because you have to disembark at the beginning of the movement phase.

Other than I guess getting to contribute to shooting at the chaff while they try to break through, and the risk of the enemy shooting back.

Not that impressed with the IA: Index.

Malcadors don't get Grinding Advance so are more expensive worse Leman Russes as they get -1 if they move. The Defender and Annihilator do get it for their Demolisher cannons though.

The Griffon is 22pts cheaper than one Heavy Mortar carriage and gets to re-roll the number of attacks on a harder to kill platform, not sure how they priced that one up.

Loopstah wrote:
Not that impressed with the IA: Index.

Malcadors don't get Grinding Advance so are more expensive worse Leman Russes as they get -1 if they move. The Defender and Annihilator do get it for their Demolisher cannons though.

The Griffon is 22pts cheaper than one Heavy Mortar carriage and gets to re-roll the number of attacks on a harder to kill platform, not sure how they priced that one up.

They do anything interesting with the co-ax stubber? My book is coming by snail mail and could well be a week.

Also, maybe the mortar can take orders?

Loopstah wrote:
Not that impressed with the IA: Index.

Malcadors don't get Grinding Advance so are more expensive worse Leman Russes as they get -1 if they move. The Defender and Annihilator do get it for their Demolisher cannons though.

The Griffon is 22pts cheaper than one Heavy Mortar carriage and gets to re-roll the number of attacks on a harder to kill platform, not sure how they priced that one up.

Any links?

Couple of things I heard:

Vendetta = 230,

Leman Russ Alpha has different statline somehow,

Vulture punisher get 40 shots,

I guess if I go to bed the whole thing will have hit the net by tomorrow. I kinda wish I had got the digital one, then I remember books are superior! (-:

How are Griffins compared to Wyverns? My book has not arrived yet.

So a gew things I'm looking at are really nifty, Saber spotlights giving us +1 BS tell the end of the shooting phas for a single friendly REGIMENT unit on its target. Not that tough but they're dirt cheap

Salamander command Vehicles can do the same thing for a vehicle withing 6" of it as well

Tatantulas stuuuupidly cheap but not fast attsck anymore

Looks like DKK Russes (and some other DKK vehicles) get a +1 armor vs S1-4 shooting

STORMHAMMER BANEBLADES

Tauros actually look pretty good, they get the invuln insyead of a jink thst black knights get, the heavy weapon one ignores penalties for moving with heavy weapons which can have lascannons or multilasers, and they are cheap, looks like a winner fpr fast attack slots.

Stygies vanquisher looks cool with coaxial reroll (but its a storm bolter so danger close)and +1 bs if it sits still.

Hades drill melta cutter is a melee weapon now with regular melta rules and wprking like a powerfist with -4AP. Gets a invuln, comes in like all the other former deepstrikers, and comes with a squad of 10 IG vets with all the choices they'd normally get.

Griffpns seem.. hrm.. their geared towards med infantry I'd say, roll 2d6 for shots and keep the highest with S6 ap-1 D3

Stormblade only takes 1 mortal wound of each 1 to hit with it overcharges its blastgun, same for the macharius omega.

Quad launchers still pump out stupid number of shots and I think will give Taurox primes a run for their money as the most effective for dealing with hordes.

So...the Leman Russ Conqueror looks totally superior to the regular LRBT unless I'm missing something. You get a 48" range battle Cannon with built in co-ax stormbolter which allows you to re-roll hits with the BC. That's a great trade for a bit of range loss!

The Stygies Vanquisher is better too; +1 to hit on the vanq canon if you don't move and a built in co-ax storm bolter to give the canon re-rolls like above.

Both these tanks sounds great.

Edit again: My word the Vendetta is back. With 3 twin lascannons, a transport capacity of 12 and the same PL as a Russ. The Vulture is also buffed with more viable loadouts now, as well as a twin Punisher Cannon that's, you guessed it, heavy 40.

Yeah i'm just not a gan if them being storm bolters, 24" its abit too vlose for comfort just to be getting re roll ones now if it were coax hvy stunners...

man I'm kind of disappointed with the Death Korps of Krieg rules,

The bad
their orders are just awful... and they lose the best ones which lets you re-roll 1s to hit as well as FRFSF for the ability to turn their lasguns into pistol 2

This has to be a typo but it looks like they can't take artillery Heavy carriages according to the special rules page as its not listed in the approved units. How can normal guard take them but Death Korps can't?

Grenadiers do nothing special and can only take 2 special weapons, no matter how big they are. garbage compared to Scions

marshal Venner is basically a worse creed and doesn't give you free command points

The Good
cult of sacrifice lets them ignore wounds caused by shooting during the morale phase

Mars pattern leman russes get +1 to their armor save against attacks of STR 4 or lower.

Engineer Shotguns are really good as you can overcharge them and always wound on a 2+ and do 2 damage (must be why the Aim order was taken away)

If you wanted to make a full death rider army you can, as there are Mounted Marshalls in the HQ choices

rapier laser destroyers are 1 shot this time but are STR 12 and D6 dmg but you roll a dice before you roll for dmg and on a 3-5 you do 2d6 dmg on a 6 you do 3d6 dmg!!!



Overall I'd say don't bother once again this edition to not use Death Korps of Krieg rules unless you want to do a death rider army.
Regular IG is just sooooo much better and I guess can take all the good things like the hades breaching drill and the rapier laser destroyers anyway. The death korps index feels like it was super rushed and no thought was put into it, literally they are just worst guard with super limited choices on what you can include in the army. I can't even rant about it anymore I'm so angry and sad, its killed my motivation for 8th edition.