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mattyrm wrote: Aye mate, that's just an image I got off google, it wasn't that army. I'm just saying other than the pads it was kinda similar, it was like a two colour red and white scheme with loads of ecclesiastical markings and such. You know.. it had plenty of those boyscout looking things on it. Like this here..

Did it look like this?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Templars

<STAY ON TOPIC>

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:

Dok wrote:
That is more Space Marines than GK.

That's it. I'm starting a new thread 'Codex: Space Marines is the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

You would be plainly and visibly incorrect. This would imply a trend of either misreading of tournament results (as you have proven capable of earlier) or a bizarre meta field within the tournaments being considered. I'd hazard a guess that it's both.

Damn man, what did grey knights ever do to you? It seems like a personal mission for you at this point.

ShumaGorath wrote:

ph34r wrote:The prevalence of SM leaves us with many explanations:

SM were "just that good" all along, and the book stood the test of time
SM were good, but became worse, and now they are good again because of the metagame
There are so many SM players that they will always have enough pro players to place highly
"codex orks 3e" syndrome where only the people pro enough remain with the book and compete in tournaments

Without more placings we'll really never know.

Or they're both just incomplete lists handpicked for this thread due to the lack of GK placings. The Full field listing is neat and fairly legit, but just listing two tournies out of context is virtually meaningless.

Did you click on the link I posted? It's a list of GTs from Bok in the throne of skulls circuit. Who (at least in theory) have nothing to gain by reporting inconsistent results. Unless you think Tastytaste is out to get you as well. They may very well be. I don't know.
The list may not be an exhaustive summary of every tournament that was ever played, but that's the best we have atm.

Dok wrote:Damn man, what did grey knights ever do to you? It seems like a personal mission for you at this point.

He's been in a bad mood for a while and has been trying to get this thread closed. Just throw him on ignore, it makes life a lot nicer.

Did you click on the link I posted? It's a list of GTs from Bok in the throne of skulls circuit. Who (at least in theory) have nothing to gain by reporting inconsistent results. Unless you think Tastytaste is out to get you as well. They may very well be. I don't know.
The list may not be an exhaustive summary of every tournament that was ever played, but that's the best we have atm.

Yeah, it was a nice listing for 2011-2012. I'm really curious to see how things go for 2012.

Damn man, what did grey knights ever do to you? It seems like a personal mission for you at this point.

I dislike it how pretre throws out the same two sentences from an ivory tower despite for almost 40 pages displaying the capacity to repeatedly misread tournament results and misapply statistical results in many ways. Also, C:SM has gotten on my nerves a lot lately, it's poor performance and bad writing (and as the codex that I use) kinda reached a peak this past tournament season.

Did you click on the link I posted? It's a list of GTs from Bok in the throne of skulls circuit.

That link was posted 39 pages ago and I said in the post that you were quoting "The Full field listing is neat and fairly legit".

He's been in a bad mood for a while and has been trying to get this thread closed. Just throw him on ignore, it makes life a lot nicer.

You made a bs thread quoting me and it turned into 40 pages of people that don't understand statistics and can't be bothered to keep up with conversation while conversely crying their eyes out about how GKs ruined the game or about how they're perfectly balanced and a paragon of what the game should be. Of course I'm in a bad mood about it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

You made a bs thread quoting me and it turned into 40 pages of people that don't understand statistics and can't be bothered to keep up with conversation while conversely crying their eyes out about how GKs ruined the game or about how they're perfectly balanced and a paragon of what the game should be. Of course I'm in a bad mood about it.

Don't get too pissed mate, look at the poll!

27% agree with you, and 25% think they are overpowered. Seems like more than half of the thread see's things your way.

mattyrm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

You made a bs thread quoting me and it turned into 40 pages of people that don't understand statistics and can't be bothered to keep up with conversation while conversely crying their eyes out about how GKs ruined the game or about how they're perfectly balanced and a paragon of what the game should be. Of course I'm in a bad mood about it.

Don't get too pissed mate, look at the poll!

27% agree with you, and 25% think they are overpowered. Seems like more than half of the thread see's things your way.

I can't see the poll, I didn't vote

mattyrm wrote: 27% agree with you, and 25% think they are overpowered. Seems like more than half of the thread see's things your way.

Yeah, except the poll allowed multiple answers so isn't terribly valid.

I'm just going to pop in and disagree with the notion that SM are going to auto-lose against GKs.

I do okay against them, and I'm not the best player in the world.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm just going to pop in and disagree with the notion that SM are going to auto-lose against GKs.

I do okay against them, and I'm not the best player in the world.

As I said, Ive still not played against GK so im not saying they defintaely are the best of the rest bar none, but I fear them after reading this thread and checking the rules and such.

Put it this way, with my happy go lucky no named characters and twenty tactical marines plus a couple of tanks and some terminators vanilla SM list, I think your pretty much guaranteed to get demolished. Or at the very least have a severe limp for a few weeks.

Space Wolves would rape my face, as I said, I faced them at 1000 points and they had something ridiculous like 15 missle launchers, how can you compete with that if not resorting to cheese?

And GK are as good as them right?

mattyrm wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm just going to pop in and disagree with the notion that SM are going to auto-lose against GKs.

I do okay against them, and I'm not the best player in the world.

As I said, Ive still not played against GK so im not saying they defintaely are the best of the rest bar none, but I fear them after reading this thread and checking the rules and such.

Put it this way, with my happy go lucky no named characters and twenty tactical marines plus a couple of tanks and some terminators vanilla SM list, I think your pretty much guaranteed to get demolished. Or at the very least have a severe limp for a few weeks.

Space Wolves would rape my face, as I said, I faced them at 1000 points and they had something ridiculous like 15 missle launchers, how can you compete with that if not resorting to cheese?

And GK are as good as them right?

Well, I do use Vulkan and tons of melta and sternguard and whatnot in Drop Pods so that might be part of why I feel the way I do.

To be honest, I'd still rather see GK than SW across the table from me if I'm running Space Marines, because I really hate the missile spam and Njall Rulebreaker.

ShumaGorath wrote:I can't see the poll, I didn't vote

Try the "View Results" link directly below the "vote" button.

Janthkin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I can't see the poll, I didn't vote

Try the "View Results" link directly below the "vote" button.

More people like tomb kings than think GKs are ok. Thats gotta hurt the tomb kings.

Monster Rain wrote:

Well, I do use Vulkan and tons of melta and sternguard and whatnot in Drop Pods so that might be part of why I feel the way I do.

To be honest, I'd still rather see GK than SW across the table from me if I'm running Space Marines, because I really hate the missile spam and Njall Rulebreaker.

Hah!

Well yes then, sorry to tell you this mate, but that there is a power list.

When you play UM, always have at least 20 tactical marines on the table (Fluff, im sorry but I cant field a SM company and it be 90% veterans!?) and no special characters (Who am I gonna take, Cato overpriced instant death when hit by a nob Sicarius) you get stomped by pretty much every other type of marine, barring that one chapter where all of the marines suffered from dwarfism.

I forget their name though...

Again, my game against Monster rain is one of the toughest I have ever played. C:SM or no. I ended up winning, but only because I psyked him out with my vindicaire

Well, I think part of the problem is that people will acknowledge that there are weaker builds in other Codexes but not in the GK one. I assure you that it's just as possible to make a bad GK list as it is to make a bad SM or SW or DE list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:Again, my game against Monster rain is one of the toughest I have ever played. C:SM or no.

Thanks, buddy! Yeah, playing too conservatively bites me on the ass sometimes.

Dok wrote:I ended up winning, but only because I psyked him out with my vindicaire

That, and your absolute refusal to fail a 4+ with that damnable Dreadknight!

Like I said before, you won that game because you outplayed me, not because I thought that the result was a forgone conclusion due to you playing "mean old GKs."

Monster Rain wrote:
Like I said before, you won that game because you outplayed me, not because I thought that the result was a forgone conclusion due to you playing "mean old GKs."

I lost my game because I started drinking at 10am and was asleep on the gaming tables in warhammer world by 1700hrs...

Ok we both played badly.. But you were worse because you were sober.

mattyrm wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
Like I said before, you won that game because you outplayed me, not because I thought that the result was a forgone conclusion due to you playing "mean old GKs."

I lost my game because I started drinking at 10am and was asleep on the gaming tables in warhammer world by 1700hrs...

Ok we both played badly.. But you were worse because you were sober.

I'd like to think I would have placed better at Adepticon if they hadn't been selling alcohol right outside the door. Kicking ass with the old Necron book at Adepticon is thirsty work!

Monster Rain wrote:
I'd like to think I would have placed better at Adepticon if they hadn't been selling alcohol right outside the door.

You must take me to the adepticon.. this instant!

Well, I think part of the problem is that people will acknowledge that there are weaker builds in other Codexes but not in the GK one. I assure you that it's just as possible to make a bad GK list as it is to make a bad SM or SW or DE list.

I think the most major problem is what GKs do to external meta. Draigowing is almost unbeatable without the right tools, but those tools aren't what is needed to beat the previous meta breaker (mech guard). Many codexes have an exceptionally hard time bringing the tools to the fight to battle both books in succession. The wolves are one of the few truly capable of it. You can meta to beat grey knights by taking an anti GK force (lots of ranged ap2 str8), but in a multi round tournament you're likely to run into a hard counter to your hard counter more often then not.

The perception of being overpowered or broken comes from their universal application of I6 force weapons (thus negating power armor based assault forces and monstrous creature dependent armies), their ludicrously cheap access to spammable psybacks and psyflemen (solving their ranged at issues), and their access to purifying flame (solving their built in problem with hordes).

They were essentially given the in built tools to flawless victory a few select (but popular) builds and the optional tools to defeat most others (without proportional built in costs).

The only exploitable weakness in the codex is to massed av12+ and theres only one codex in the game capable of capitalizing on that. There are very few in game tactics that can be utilized to beat them with most lists. playing keep away is difficult, denying cover or stalling is nearly impossible. Point for point they outshoot and outcombat many armies, and thanks to the shrouding they're also more resilient. They can be beaten with a list designed specifically to beat them, but that's not a particularly helpful attribute.

It was ok (but still kinda lame) when the leafblower was the only true metabreaking dominant build. When it showed up nob bikerz vanished. Now that you have to contend with it and draigowing simultaneously many armies are simply left scratching their heads as to how to deal with both. They're helping to distill the game into more of a rock paper scissors than it has been in the last few years and against all comers lists they're exceptionally capable.

They manage to be an all comers list while being an extreme derivation that is hard to beat with all comers lists. Unlike most derivative lists they only have a single realistic foil. That's a sign of something that is harmful to the meta.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Well, I think part of the problem is that people will acknowledge that there are weaker builds in other Codexes but not in the GK one. I assure you that it's just as possible to make a bad GK list as it is to make a bad SM or SW or DE list.

I think the most major problem is what GKs do to external meta. Draigowing is almost unbeatable without the right tools, but those tools aren't what is needed to beat the previous meta breaker (mech guard). Many codexes have an exceptionally hard time bringing the tools to the fight to battle both books in succession. The wolves are one of the few truly capable of it. You can meta to beat grey knights by taking an anti GK force (lots of ranged ap2 str8), but in a multi round tournament you're likely to run into a hard counter to your hard counter more often then not.

The perception of being overpowered or broken comes from their universal application of I6 force weapons (thus negating power armor based assault forces and monstrous creature dependent armies), their ludicrously cheap access to spammable psybacks and psyflemen (solving their ranged at issues), and their access to purifying flame (solving their built in problem with hordes).

They were essentially given the in built tools to flawless victory a few select (but popular) builds and the optional tools to defeat most others (without proportional built in costs).

The only exploitable weakness in the codex is to massed av12+ and theres only one codex in the game capable of capitalizing on that. There are very few in game tactics that can be utilized to beat them with most lists. playing keep away is difficult, denying cover or stalling is nearly impossible. Point for point they outshoot and outcombat many armies, and thanks to the shrouding they're also more resilient. They can be beaten with a list designed specifically to beat them, but that's not a particularly helpful attribute.

It was ok (but still kinda lame) when the leafblower was the only true metabreaking dominant build. When it showed up nob bikerz vanished. Now that you have to contend with it and draigowing simultaneously many armies are simply left scratching their heads as to how to deal with both. They're helping to distill the game into more of a rock paper scissors than it has been in the last few years and against all comers lists they're exceptionally capable.

They manage to be an all comers list while being an extreme derivation that is hard to beat with all comers lists. That's a sign of something that is harmful to the meta.

Ok I can get behind this statement for sure. I would say though we had some of this before though when facing orkz and the ig were also 2 of the main armies. You need different things to beat them espeacially if the orkz were approaching the game with tons of bodies. Then to compensate they made armies who could field the firepower to fight the shooting armies and hordes which again made the meta skewed.

Ok I can get behind this statement for sure. I would say though we had some of this before though when facing orkz and the ig were also 2 of the main armies.

In my experience IG (and then wolves) pushed the orks out due to psyker battle squads and jaws. The overlap between orks and IG was shortlived and hardcounters for one worked on the other in a lot of situations.The overlap between guard and GKs seems like it's going to last a lot longer and in their prime neither guard nor nob bikes were nearly as prevalent as what we're seeing with GKs.

mattyrm wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
I'd like to think I would have placed better at Adepticon if they hadn't been selling alcohol right outside the door.

You must take me to the adepticon.. this instant!

Not this year, alas.

Next year is looking good, though. Get on it! We can round up a few more guys and be team "Fething Leathered!"

___________________________________________________________________

As to GK being "meta busting" I'm afraid I just don't see it. Aside from Draigowing it's just another LAV spam army that also happens to ignore shaken and stunned results (by which I'm generally disappointed with receiving anyway).

mattyrm wrote:
Space Wolves would rape my face, as I said, I faced them at 1000 points and they had something ridiculous like 15 missle launchers, how can you compete with that if not resorting to cheese?

And GK are as good as them right?

Not according to any objective data. Space Wolves are still better than Grey Knights.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Ok I can get behind this statement for sure. I would say though we had some of this before though when facing orkz and the ig were also 2 of the main armies.

In my experience IG (and then wolves) pushed the orks out due to psyker battle squads and jaws. The overlap between orks and IG was shortlived and hardcounters for one worked on the other in a lot of situations.The overlap between guard and GKs seems like it's going to last a lot longer and in their prime neither guard nor nob bikes were nearly as prevalent as what we're seeing with GKs.

Wouldnt you say the thing that hurt orks and ig though was the cost? I mean I remember doing some money. The orkz and IG both have a rep for being expensive.

Another would be the folks using their sw,ba what have you as count as gk.

People keep saying theyre powerful so of course you will get many new players.

Then the ease for someone to buy a draigowing with around 150 dollars.

All these combine to add a lot more attention then say sw, ig, etc. Then forcing people to pay more attention to them. In my local area we have 2 gk players so they local meta hasnt shifted as dramatically. I mean in a 30 plus person tourney and only 2 have them you dont have to worry. We have every army represented here from the "lower" tier sob, nids etc to the "upper" ig, de, ba etc.

Draigo wrote:Then the ease for someone to buy a draigowing with around 150 dollars.

Draigowing isn't quite that cheap, although it is a relatively inexpensive army. You can do something similar with Nob Bikers and a few other 'cheap' to construct armies.

the "lower" tier sob, nids etc to the "upper" ig, de, ba etc.

Ahem, I dispute SOB on the lower tier.

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:Then the ease for someone to buy a draigowing with around 150 dollars.

Draigowing isn't quite that cheap, although it is a relatively inexpensive army. You can do something similar with Nob Bikers and a few other 'cheap' to construct armies.

the "lower" tier sob, nids etc to the "upper" ig, de, ba etc.

Ahem, I dispute SOB on the lower tier.

You can have a fully legal draigowing army with a single 5 man box of GK terminators. They are the cheapest army in the game. I'd probably have had better luck if I had said "Grey knights are the cheapest army in a decade"!

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:Then the ease for someone to buy a draigowing with around 150 dollars.

Draigowing isn't quite that cheap, although it is a relatively inexpensive army. You can do something similar with Nob Bikers and a few other 'cheap' to construct armies.

the "lower" tier sob, nids etc to the "upper" ig, de, ba etc.

Ahem, I dispute SOB on the lower tier.

Can you make any other competitive list aside from

Celestine
Jacob
3 exorcists
2-3 dominions
dca with a few crusaders

Aside from that I dont see sob bringing anything all that good. Not to mention jacob bomb is in a rhino..

As far as the other cheaper dollar armies which besides gk has the new factor and people running along at how scary it is??

Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:Then the ease for someone to buy a draigowing with around 150 dollars.

Draigowing isn't quite that cheap, although it is a relatively inexpensive army. You can do something similar with Nob Bikers and a few other 'cheap' to construct armies.

the "lower" tier sob, nids etc to the "upper" ig, de, ba etc.

Ahem, I dispute SOB on the lower tier.

Can you make any other competitive list aside from

Celestine
Jacob
3 exorcists
2-3 dominions
dca with a few crusaders

Aside from that I dont see sob bringing anything all that good. Not to mention jacob bomb is in a rhino..

As far as the other cheaper dollar armies which besides gk has the new factor and people running along at how scary it is??

If you cast the scarabs (and ebayed the spiders) you could probably do a damn cheap scarab farm list. It's not going to come even close to how cheap it is to make a draigowing army though.

Scarab farm is a pricey list, wait until Tomb Spyders get plastic models (same with wraiths). It's why we aren't seeing a lot of it at present.

Tomb spyders are selling for ~30USD per right now on ebay, and they're only 500 points of the scarab farm list. Between scarabs and spyders you're nearing the 400-500 dollar mark, and you've got about 50% of an army.