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Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:Ahem, I dispute SOB on the lower tier.

Can you make any other competitive list aside from Celestine, Jacob, 3 exorcists, 2-3 dominions, dca with a few crusaders. Aside from that I dont see sob bringing anything all that good. Not to mention jacob bomb is in a rhino..

As far as the other cheaper dollar armies which besides gk has the new factor and people running along at how scary it is??

Double conclave Uriah and Kyrinov, 3 Dominions, 3 Rets, 3 xBSS, Repentia to flavor. Kyrinov backstops the Rets.

Of course the other armies don't have the 'new factor'... They aren't new. Also, I think Draigowing is the least scary of the GK competitive armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just as a point of reference, here's 3 draigowing lists with costs. All costs approximate. Some of this stuff is going to be a pain to get the bits for, but assuming you can trade to get some of it. (Autocannons for that many dreads is a PITA.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420827.page
Draigo - $25
Librarian - Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding - $15
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons (2x MC), 2x MC-Hammer, Banner, Stave - $100
5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Stave - $50
1x Soladin
Stormraven - $60
Psyfleman Dread - $40
Psyfleman Dread - $40
$330

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/410322.page
Lord Kaldor Draigo - $25
Librarian - Might of Titans, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift - $15
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - $40
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - $40
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x MC-Hammer, Warding Stave, Brotherhood Banner, Apothecary - $100
5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Warding Stave - $50
1x Paladin - Hammer
$270

http://blackmoors40k.blogspot.com/2012/01/winning-draigowing-list-in-under-20.html
Blackmoor's list
Draigo - $25
Librarian - $15
Ven - $40
Ven - $40
11 Paladins - $100
Dread - $40
Dread - $40
Dread - $40
$340

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:Ahem, I dispute SOB on the lower tier.

Can you make any other competitive list aside from Celestine, Jacob, 3 exorcists, 2-3 dominions, dca with a few crusaders. Aside from that I dont see sob bringing anything all that good. Not to mention jacob bomb is in a rhino..

As far as the other cheaper dollar armies which besides gk has the new factor and people running along at how scary it is??

Double conclave Uriah and Kyrinov, 3 Dominions, 3 Rets, 3 xBSS, Repentia to flavor. Kyrinov backstops the Rets.

Of course the other armies don't have the 'new factor'... They aren't new. Also, I think Draigowing is the least scary of the GK competitive armies.

It's gk in general not specifically draigowing. So in ur "new" list you still have jacob, 3 exorcists, 3 dominions, etc? Not really a new list per se.. Thats like comparing 2 draigowing one with 15 pallys and the other having 8.. Not saying the actual list is terrible but that doesnt do much for the sob as a whole. I played the list i mentioned with draigowing and if the exorcist wasnt rolling 5-6 shots per tank the sob player would have been tabled. So no imo sob are low tier for lack of options and even their better lists cant beat the gk list you say is "least scary." But this is side tracking the thread again..

Draigo wrote:It's gk in general not specifically draigowing. So in ur "new" list you still have jacob, 3 exorcists, 3 dominions, etc? Not really a new list per se..

No...
I said Uriah and Kyrinov with Conclaves, 3 Dominions, 3 Retributors, 3 Battle Sister Squads and Repentia. Not really the same thing at all. And number of valid builds does not make a book higher or lower tier. If a book had only one valid build and it won 95% of the time, would you consider it 'lower tier'?

I played the list i mentioned with draigowing and if the exorcist wasnt rolling 5-6 shots per tank the sob player would have been tabled. So no imo sob are low tier for lack of options and even their better lists cant beat the gk list you say is "least scary." But this is side tracking the thread again..

That's one game. I've wrecked all the GK players I've played with my sisters. Which one of our experiences is more valid? (This is a trick question, btw. The answer is neither.)

GK's are definately a 'broken' book by the simple fact they've pretty much told every single Daemon player;
a) To even remotely stand a chance, you must now only bring Fateweaver + princes + fiends + crushers + min/maxed horrors & 'bearers and maybe a few dogs. Sorry if you bought anything else, but those units are now pretty much useless!

b) Even with your seriously limited list, we can take a psychic power you have no way what-so-ever of defending against and we'll remove every single gift you have except a herald's steed!

c) With just 10 guys we can outright invalidate your army's biggest advantage. With 30 of those guys, we can auto-win the game by winning the roll for 1st turn/stealing the initiative!

Thank-you for spending all your time & money lovingly crafting your army, but GW says it's time for you to buy a new army and we're just here to re-inforce the point.
Yours sencerly,
Codex: Grey Knights


No book should ever have a massive and utterly one-sided advantage against another book in a 'balanced' system. And it's not like Daemons are some pile of steaming terd, 4th ed lame duck codex either! Hell, they were the first 5th ed codex! (They only came out in May because they piggy-backed on what was really a Fantasy release month)
My own daemon army has no huge problems dealing with any other army that isn't a 100% tailored list... Except 'Durp Knights' who instead kick my face in unless I bring a highly tailored list AND get lucky rolls to boot!

Sure, I feel for all the old GK players who played the army since way back when in CH and got laughed at for having such a crap army, but now face hate from everyone because of the bandwagon.
But it's also just as unfair that MY army has litterly been neutered to the point I can't compete anymore because your book is so obnoxiously OTT and unfair to me. Instead of bringing my shiny new Daemonrain to the tourny party now, I have to fall back onto an older army I'm rather bored with simply because a third of the field is playing GK's.

pretre wrote:

mattyrm wrote: 27% agree with you, and 25% think they are overpowered. Seems like more than half of the thread see's things your way.

Yeah, except the poll allowed multiple answers so isn't terribly valid.

Poll did not allow multiple answers. The numbers add up to 100%

Absolutionis wrote:

pretre wrote:

mattyrm wrote: 27% agree with you, and 25% think they are overpowered. Seems like more than half of the thread see's things your way.

Yeah, except the poll allowed multiple answers so isn't terribly valid.

Poll did not allow multiple answers. The numbers add up to 100%

That doesn't matter though, does it? No matter how many votes every person casts, it'll still add up to 100%, right?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

pretre wrote:

mattyrm wrote: 27% agree with you, and 25% think they are overpowered. Seems like more than half of the thread see's things your way.

Yeah, except the poll allowed multiple answers so isn't terribly valid.

Poll did not allow multiple answers. The numbers add up to 100%

That doesn't matter though, does it? No matter how many votes every person casts, it'll still add up to 100%, right?

No, multiple answers within one vote. You can vote for OP and No at the same time and it counts as 2 votes.

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's are definately a 'broken' book by the simple fact they've pretty much told every single Daemon player;
a) To even remotely stand a chance, you must now only bring Fateweaver + princes + fiends + crushers + min/maxed horrors & 'bearers and maybe a few dogs. Sorry if you bought anything else, but those units are now pretty much useless!

b) Even with your seriously limited list, we can take a psychic power you have no way what-so-ever of defending against and we'll remove every single gift you have except a herald's steed!

c) With just 10 guys we can outright invalidate your army's biggest advantage. With 30 of those guys, we can auto-win the game by winning the roll for 1st turn/stealing the initiative!

I just want to address your points from a tournament perspective. I feel for people with daemon armies and if the next codex had preferred enemy GK, I wouldn't be mad. That's GW's beef.

A) That's a pretty good list against most armies in the first place. If you can field that and beat most armies and compete with one that has a built in advantage against you, then I'm not sure what the problem is.
B) Only 3 units in the codex have dark excommunication. And if it was optional, most players sure wouldn't pay for it. It is optional on a librarian and I've never seen anyone spend 5 points on it. Also, it only works in CC. So if you take non gift dependent units against their guys with DE, you won't find it to be much of a problem. (again, if they even have DE)
C) I wouldn't say Daemons biggest advantage is their deployment. In fact, it seems to be a hindrance most of the time. But again, from a tournament perspective, I've only seen three people field any unit with warp quake in the last year of tournies. Most people spam purifiers, play henchmen troops, or play paladins. Only one of those lists has anything specifically against daemons and it's on a t3 model.

I've been saying it this whole thread, but I'll say it again. When a new army comes out, it should change the meta. If it doesn't, then what's the point of having different armies. If they didn't want to change the meta, everyone would be playing out of C:SM and blue marines would be fighting blue marines on every table. The unfortunate nature of the game is that you have to spend money and time putting together armies. And when you have to replace units you like that may not be good any more, that sucks. But if you class yourself as a competitive player, then these are things you have to deal with. You can't rock the same army against every opponent and expect the game to play the same way every time.

pretre wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

pretre wrote:

mattyrm wrote: 27% agree with you, and 25% think they are overpowered. Seems like more than half of the thread see's things your way.

Yeah, except the poll allowed multiple answers so isn't terribly valid.

Poll did not allow multiple answers. The numbers add up to 100%

That doesn't matter though, does it? No matter how many votes every person casts, it'll still add up to 100%, right?

No, multiple answers within one vote. You can vote for OP and No at the same time and it counts as 2 votes.

Yes, but they'll still be part of the 100%. I guess it depends on whether the poll actually counts the number of people who've voted for each alternative or if it counts the number of votes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

pretre wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

pretre wrote:

mattyrm wrote: 27% agree with you, and 25% think they are overpowered. Seems like more than half of the thread see's things your way.

Yeah, except the poll allowed multiple answers so isn't terribly valid.

Poll did not allow multiple answers. The numbers add up to 100%

That doesn't matter though, does it? No matter how many votes every person casts, it'll still add up to 100%, right?

No, multiple answers within one vote. You can vote for OP and No at the same time and it counts as 2 votes.

Yes, but they'll still be part of the 100%. I guess it depends on whether the poll actually counts the number of people who've voted for each alternative or if it counts the number of votes.

The polls on dakka are set up to always add to 100%.

If you vote for multiple options, they count as separate votes, so at the end of the day if 200 people vote, and they casted 500 votes total, the %'s are based on the percentage of total votes, not voters.

mattyrm wrote:When you play UM, always have at least 20 tactical marines on the table (Fluff, im sorry but I cant field a SM company and it be 90% veterans!?) and no special characters (Who am I gonna take, Cato overpriced instant death when hit by a nob Sicarius) you get stomped by pretty much every other type of marine, barring that one chapter where all of the marines suffered from dwarfism.

I forget their name though...

I don't really find this to be the case. I field 20-30 Tactical Marines in most games, with no "power" special characters (occasionally Telion or Cassius), and I win most of my games even in competitive tournaments. I'm by no means the world's best player, either. I really do think Codex: Space Marines has what it takes to compete with any Codex in the game (except maybe Codex: Black Templars, but hopefully that'll be revised soon anyway).

pretre wrote:And just as a point of reference, here's 3 draigowing lists with costs. All costs approximate. Some of this stuff is going to be a pain to get the bits for, but assuming you can trade to get some of it. (Autocannons for that many dreads is a PITA.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420827.page
Draigo - $25
Librarian - Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding - $15
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons (2x MC), 2x MC-Hammer, Banner, Stave - $100
5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Stave - $50
1x Soladin
Stormraven - $60
Psyfleman Dread - $40
Psyfleman Dread - $40
$330

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/410322.page
Lord Kaldor Draigo - $25
Librarian - Might of Titans, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift - $15
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - $40
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - $40
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 1x MC-Hammer, Warding Stave, Brotherhood Banner, Apothecary - $100
5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Warding Stave - $50
1x Paladin - Hammer
$270

Hey! I've seen those lists somewhere before.

BTW, I had 2 games against the Battle Sisters just recently at 1500. Against the very same army, I brought out 2 different and competitive GK armies - Draigowing and then my Crowe-Purifiers.

I won't spoil the ending yet as I will be making a battle report, but let's just say, at lower points, SoB's are actually pretty good. SoB's scale better at lower points (1500-1750) whereas GK's work better at higher points (1750-2K). Thus, I was playing at my non-optimal points level, but against an opponent that really didn't have all that much experience against the GK's. As a matter of fact, my GK's were the first that he's ever fought.

So what's the point, you ask?

Can what's considered one of the weaker codex - the Battle Sisters - take on one of the strongest codex run by an experienced general?

pretre wrote:
And just as a point of reference, here's 3 draigowing lists with costs. All costs approximate. Some of this stuff is going to be a pain to get the bits for, but assuming you can trade to get some of it. (Autocannons for that many dreads is a PITA.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420827.page
Draigo - $25
Librarian - Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding - $15
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons (2x MC), 2x MC-Hammer, Banner, Stave - $100
5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Stave - $50
1x Soladin
Stormraven - $60
Psyfleman Dread - $40
Psyfleman Dread - $40
$330

*Screams in horror, I play against that list so often waaaaaaaaaaaaa

jy2 wrote:So what's the point, you ask?

Can what's considered one of the weaker codex - the Battle Sisters - take on one of the strongest codex run by an experienced general?

This brings up a good point relevant to this thread. If you were to take the current codexes and take their relevant tournament builds and rank them, would a GK be on top? I don't think so. SW (GH/LF spam for example) is still hard for any list to beat.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I can't see the poll, I didn't vote

Try the "View Results" link directly below the "vote" button.

More people like tomb kings than think GKs are ok. Thats gotta hurt the tomb kings.

lol not tomb kings... Tomb King. More people like me rather then think they are an ok codex. Pretre put that up because I hounded him for the poll hehe

GK are not the most overpowered army in the last decade. They, imho, are inferior to guard, which is an older book. And guard was wicked when it came out too; its meta-impact completely changed the game. The entire argument about the meta shift caused by GK is based on the very meta that guard created.

That aside, GK are still second in my mind. If you think SW is better or even on the same level as GK, you are wrong. Point-for-point, simply wrong.

I also dispute the claim that any GK list will beat any other list. 40k is much, much more about player experience than list building in the vast majority of games. That said, I believe that if you play two games against a player of equal experience, one with a space marine army and one with a GK army, you will definitely realize that one has built-in training wheels. So much so that many of the top competitive players are moving away from GK because it is so easy to win with them.

Finally, on the note of codices that change the meta:
Yes, every codex should "change" the meta. But look at the change GK is making and look at the change both sisters and necrons have made and compare them. It's not even close. And then all three of them to guard. Still not even close. A codex should shift the meta, not change it. Maybe a few less vehicles here, or each army grabbing an armored unit there. Some minor adjustment. Paying 10 pts or 0 pts for searchlights is a shift. Forgoing entire list archetypes definitely is a large-scale change.

I understand that with codices like GK, SW, and Guard, they need to have staying power as their rules are updated relatively rarely, and they make GW lots of money. I don't understand why GW feels the need to make other new releases (SoB, Necrons) much weaker, rather than try to get at least part of the player base to buy in to a new army.

Kitzz wrote:GK are not the most overpowered army in the last decade. They, imho, are inferior to guard, which is an older book. And guard was wicked when it came out too; its meta-impact completely changed the game. The entire argument about the meta shift caused by GK is based on the very meta that guard created.

That aside, GK are still second in my mind. If you think SW is better or even on the same level as GK, you are wrong. Point-for-point, simply wrong.

I also dispute the claim that any GK list will beat any other list. 40k is much, much more about player experience than list building in the vast majority of games. That said, I believe that if you play two games against a player of equal experience, one with a space marine army and one with a GK army, you will definitely realize that one has built-in training wheels. So much so that many of the top competitive players are moving away from GK because it is so easy to win with them.

Finally, on the note of codices that change the meta:
Yes, every codex should "change" the meta. But look at the change GK is making and look at the change both sisters and necrons have made and compare them. It's not even close. And then all three of them to guard. Still not even close. A codex should shift the meta, not change it. Maybe a few less vehicles here, or each army grabbing an armored unit there. Some minor adjustment. Paying 10 pts or 0 pts for searchlights is a shift. Forgoing entire list archetypes definitely is a large-scale change.

I understand that with codices like GK, SW, and Guard, they need to have staying power as their rules are updated relatively rarely, and they make GW lots of money. I don't understand why GW feels the need to make other new releases (SoB, Necrons) much weaker, rather than try to get at least part of the player base to buy in to a new army.

What is this talk about necrons being so much weaker???? I just got curb stomped by a necron list at 2k points while running my 2k GT guard list . Mind you it was DoW and he had that the whole board is DT guy so I lost 4 transports and 3 infantry units that died in there transports on turn 1. That kind of change to the game mechanics make a shooty gunline against necrons a real handicap. Especially when that same army has a Ctan making difficult terrain checks stack as well as Immotep making it rain lightning on your units. So sorry if I could not see the weak necro codex past all of this.

So you chose to walk on turn one and auto-lose a third of your army rather than wait in reserve and get half your army on turn two? And btw, that is his best possible mission against any army, and his list is specifically designed to beat yours.

The three units you just mentioned make it so that a) he can only have 5 royal court members, and only 1 per squad and b)he has 700 points distributed amongst 3 models. Also, it's fairly evident you had no idea the combo was coming, because it's completely avoidable, and only happens one out of every four or so games for him.

That aside, I never said necrons are weak. I said they were much weaker than the armies I was talking about. Try playing draigowing against the same list and let me know how it goes.

Also, related thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429462.page

I lol'd @ list of undefeated armies.

Kitzz wrote:
Also, related thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429462.page

I lol'd @ list of undefeated armies.

2x Space Wolves
3x Grey Knights
1x Orks
1x Imperial Guard

Why exactly is that list laughable? With the exception of the Ork army being there, it's basically a list of the top 3 armies in the game. Maybe the Ork player got some favorable matchups, luck or straight up outplayed people.

I don't know the amount of each army played in the tourny, but this is not at all surprising to me.

I laughed because I had just gotten done saying in this very thread that those were the three top armies.

I lol'd but am completely and utterly unsurprised.

Kitzz wrote:I laughed because I had just gotten done saying in this very thread that those were the three top armies.

I lol'd but am completely and utterly unsurprised.

You said it after dozens of posts stating that and showing that sw were the top torueny winner of last year. So wasn't a new revelation on this thread.

I never said it was a revelation. You guys certainly read a lot into my "lol'd."

Kitzz wrote: I never said it was a revelation. You guys certainly read a lot into my "lol'd."

No but if nothing new is added and it becomes a loop the thread is locked.

I just want to say, hell no, SOB is not lower tier, When you have a good sisters of battle army vs any top tier army, they d pretty well.

Had a proxy game with SOB vs Mech guard and they won, 14KP to 4KP.

There might have been a few mistakes but outflanking meltagun/MM is crazy. Also their S8 AP1 48 inch exocist is deadly. Against paladins that is just amazing, it forces them to sta in cover all game or risk it and come close but get killed.

In my local games workshop, GK always win but thats because everyone sucks as a general here, I come in with orks and GK have a larger dead pile than the orks.

It so depends on the players, I think all the good players saw the potential in GK and all became GK players that is why they were so amazing for some time.

Last but not least, necron av13 spam???!!!! that is the greatest GK counter. IF you think about it, it makes sense

1. Outflanking meltas do very well until you meet an opponent that sets up a one-tank loss in exchange for you losing all of said outflanking meltas. Again, if someone does not know what a list is trying to do, they will have a much harder time beating it.

2. Necron AV 13 is indeed the greatest GK counter, unless they run any of the following:
Paladains with psycannons (That's Draigowing)
Land Raiders, hammerhand, and eviscerators (That's henchmen)
Purifiers with psycannons (That's purifier spam)
Terminators, Dreadknights, interceptors, strike squads, purgation squads, storm ravens, laz or laz-plas razorbacks, daemonhammers, librarians, techmarines, jokaero, and of course, psybolt dreadnoughts (that's everything else in the entire codex)

I thought about it, and I realized that there isn't a single unit in the vast majority of GK army lists that doesn't normally come equipped with a weapon that excels at taking down AV 13 open-topped X compared to almost any other army.

That said, there is a great GK counter out there. It's tau.

lol, tau. How freaking ironic. But also, true.

If Greyknights are being played by a lot of people in comparison to other armies, it's because the codex is still relatively recent. If they seem to be winning more than other armies, it's relative to the number of people playing them. If you have five people playing GK, and one playing Orks, one Tau, and one IG, what army in that group of eight is most likely to report a win?

I see more Necrons win than GK nowadays. Why? Because everyone went out and got Necrons when the new codex dropped, and they've been playing with those new armies.

Also, as I state repeatedly to anyone that will listen: "OP" is a sore loser's way of saying "I don't have the skill or the drive to make an army that can take this one".

No, actually necrons are not winning more, and not as many people have picked them up, and on top of that, most people don't play GK. Most people play marines. Plain, old, vanilla marines. In tournaments, this still holds true the vast majority of the time.

And that codex is definitely not what I'd call recent.

Kitzz wrote:No, actually necrons are not winning more, and not as many people have picked them up, and on top of that, most people don't play GK. Most people play marines. Plain, old, vanilla marines. In tournaments, this still holds true the vast majority of the time.

And that codex is definitely not what I'd call recent.

Source?

as a matter of fact, people, lets source everything in this thread from now own. Will bring an answer much quicker.

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Also, as I state repeatedly to anyone that will listen: "OP" is a sore loser's way of saying "I don't have the skill or the drive to make an army that can take this one".

Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.