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Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Mandragola wrote:
 Ideasweasel wrote:
Does anyone here own a forgeworld Styrix? Would the weapons be comparable size wise on a normal gw questoris Class?

So my reasoning being if I had a Magnetised knight and acquired just the Styrix guns could I magnetised them and got them to my normal gw knight easily enough?

Has anyone attempted such a thing?

You could do that pretty easily, yes. The only slight issue is that the Styrix's gun has a cable that goes to the knight's back, but if you put a second magnet there it would be fine.

I haven't used Helverins but I took a couple of Warglaives to a GT heat. I found them to be a bit of a liability if I'm honest, and I think that Helverins would be at least as bad.

The problem is that against Horde armies they can be surrounded pretty easily. They can't escape or fight their way out. The horde unit can then hold an objective (or maybe even more than one, depending on the rules you're using and scenario) and there's very little that you can do about it. An army with a Castellan, some IG infantry, scouts and smash captains wouldn't contain anything that could help.

Helverins provide very efficient shooting, and are particularly good in a meta with quite a lot of things like Eldar paper planes. But the moment something gets into cc with one that's it.


Cool, I might just save up for a Styrix or have a think about cutting the cable off
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Michigan

I've been working on converting up suitable substitutes to try it out.

   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






If you have any photos I’d be keen to see them and your thought process
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Mandragola wrote:
 Ideasweasel wrote:
Does anyone here own a forgeworld Styrix? Would the weapons be comparable size wise on a normal gw questoris Class?

So my reasoning being if I had a Magnetised knight and acquired just the Styrix guns could I magnetised them and got them to my normal gw knight easily enough?

Has anyone attempted such a thing?

You could do that pretty easily, yes. The only slight issue is that the Styrix's gun has a cable that goes to the knight's back, but if you put a second magnet there it would be fine.

I haven't used Helverins but I took a couple of Warglaives to a GT heat. I found them to be a bit of a liability if I'm honest, and I think that Helverins would be at least as bad.

The problem is that against Horde armies they can be surrounded pretty easily. They can't escape or fight their way out. The horde unit can then hold an objective (or maybe even more than one, depending on the rules you're using and scenario) and there's very little that you can do about it. An army with a Castellan, some IG infantry, scouts and smash captains wouldn't contain anything that could help.

Helverins provide very efficient shooting, and are particularly good in a meta with quite a lot of things like Eldar paper planes. But the moment something gets into cc with one that's it.


Interesting. What matchups did the helverins do poorly in? I found my castellan was very good at killing them. But I am thinking of taking them in place of the gallants because the gallants struggled so much against the eldar models in ruins or tau models in ruins matchups.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




 Ideasweasel wrote:
Does anyone here own a forgeworld Styrix? Would the weapons be comparable size wise on a normal gw questoris Class?

So my reasoning being if I had a Magnetised knight and acquired just the Styrix guns could I magnetised them and got them to my normal gw knight easily enough?

Has anyone attempted such a thing?

The FW questoris knights are the same kit as the GW plastic ones except for the weapons, armor plates, and head (which are resin).

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Mandragola wrote:
I haven't used Helverins but I took a couple of Warglaives to a GT heat. I found them to be a bit of a liability if I'm honest, and I think that Helverins would be at least as bad.

The problem is that against Horde armies they can be surrounded pretty easily. They can't escape or fight their way out. The horde unit can then hold an objective (or maybe even more than one, depending on the rules you're using and scenario) and there's very little that you can do about it. An army with a Castellan, some IG infantry, scouts and smash captains wouldn't contain anything that could help.

Helverins provide very efficient shooting, and are particularly good in a meta with quite a lot of things like Eldar paper planes. But the moment something gets into cc with one that's it.


I would say helverins should be less vulnerable to that issue. Warglaive has short ranged gun(especially for full effect) and also cc weapon so it kinda makes it go FORWARD to be able to use the weapons. Helverin meanwhile has effectively unlimited range gun and isn't packing h2h weapon so less need to go forward. So the helverins are behind wall of big knights meaning to in combat with helverins they have to go THROUGH bigger knights. That or deep strike(turn 2+) behind.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

tneva82 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
I haven't used Helverins but I took a couple of Warglaives to a GT heat. I found them to be a bit of a liability if I'm honest, and I think that Helverins would be at least as bad.

The problem is that against Horde armies they can be surrounded pretty easily. They can't escape or fight their way out. The horde unit can then hold an objective (or maybe even more than one, depending on the rules you're using and scenario) and there's very little that you can do about it. An army with a Castellan, some IG infantry, scouts and smash captains wouldn't contain anything that could help.

Helverins provide very efficient shooting, and are particularly good in a meta with quite a lot of things like Eldar paper planes. But the moment something gets into cc with one that's it.


I would say helverins should be less vulnerable to that issue. Warglaive has short ranged gun(especially for full effect) and also cc weapon so it kinda makes it go FORWARD to be able to use the weapons. Helverin meanwhile has effectively unlimited range gun and isn't packing h2h weapon so less need to go forward. So the helverins are behind wall of big knights meaning to in combat with helverins they have to go THROUGH bigger knights. That or deep strike(turn 2+) behind.

I'm not really sure which is more vulnerable, but both share this problem. The armiger can at least fight its way out of some problems.

I don't think there's much point comparing the two, as they are such different units. I do think that Helverins will get stuck, even in games where you've got a lot of knights of your own. It's true they will be reasinably well defended but some things are just unstoppable, like plaguebearers if there's a tree to let them fall back and charge, alpha legion cultists or orks using da jump.

In a mixed army, say something like admech or IG, then you could protect Helverins with screens. In a pure knight force I think it's better to go for an army where nothing can be pinned in place.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Mandragola wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
I haven't used Helverins but I took a couple of Warglaives to a GT heat. I found them to be a bit of a liability if I'm honest, and I think that Helverins would be at least as bad.

The problem is that against Horde armies they can be surrounded pretty easily. They can't escape or fight their way out. The horde unit can then hold an objective (or maybe even more than one, depending on the rules you're using and scenario) and there's very little that you can do about it. An army with a Castellan, some IG infantry, scouts and smash captains wouldn't contain anything that could help.

Helverins provide very efficient shooting, and are particularly good in a meta with quite a lot of things like Eldar paper planes. But the moment something gets into cc with one that's it.


I would say helverins should be less vulnerable to that issue. Warglaive has short ranged gun(especially for full effect) and also cc weapon so it kinda makes it go FORWARD to be able to use the weapons. Helverin meanwhile has effectively unlimited range gun and isn't packing h2h weapon so less need to go forward. So the helverins are behind wall of big knights meaning to in combat with helverins they have to go THROUGH bigger knights. That or deep strike(turn 2+) behind.

I'm not really sure which is more vulnerable, but both share this problem. The armiger can at least fight its way out of some problems.

I don't think there's much point comparing the two, as they are such different units. I do think that Helverins will get stuck, even in games where you've got a lot of knights of your own. It's true they will be reasinably well defended but some things are just unstoppable, like plaguebearers if there's a tree to let them fall back and charge, alpha legion cultists or orks using da jump.

In a mixed army, say something like admech or IG, then you could protect Helverins with screens. In a pure knight force I think it's better to go for an army where nothing can be pinned in place.
You do realise that a number of codex's contain models that are perfectly capable of locking fullsize knights in CC anyway.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Ice_can wrote:
Spoiler:
Mandragola wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
I haven't used Helverins but I took a couple of Warglaives to a GT heat. I found them to be a bit of a liability if I'm honest, and I think that Helverins would be at least as bad.

The problem is that against Horde armies they can be surrounded pretty easily. They can't escape or fight their way out. The horde unit can then hold an objective (or maybe even more than one, depending on the rules you're using and scenario) and there's very little that you can do about it. An army with a Castellan, some IG infantry, scouts and smash captains wouldn't contain anything that could help.

Helverins provide very efficient shooting, and are particularly good in a meta with quite a lot of things like Eldar paper planes. But the moment something gets into cc with one that's it.


I would say helverins should be less vulnerable to that issue. Warglaive has short ranged gun(especially for full effect) and also cc weapon so it kinda makes it go FORWARD to be able to use the weapons. Helverin meanwhile has effectively unlimited range gun and isn't packing h2h weapon so less need to go forward. So the helverins are behind wall of big knights meaning to in combat with helverins they have to go THROUGH bigger knights. That or deep strike(turn 2+) behind.

I'm not really sure which is more vulnerable, but both share this problem. The armiger can at least fight its way out of some problems.

I don't think there's much point comparing the two, as they are such different units. I do think that Helverins will get stuck, even in games where you've got a lot of knights of your own. It's true they will be reasinably well defended but some things are just unstoppable, like plaguebearers if there's a tree to let them fall back and charge, alpha legion cultists or orks using da jump.

In a mixed army, say something like admech or IG, then you could protect Helverins with screens. In a pure knight force I think it's better to go for an army where nothing can be pinned in place.
You do realise that a number of codex's contain models that are perfectly capable of locking fullsize knights in CC anyway.

Sure. There are some models that can lock a full size knight in combat, though not all of them would choose to put themselves in combat with one in order to do so. But unlike a full size knight a Helverin does nothing much in close combat, and any unit can trap it. So instead of having a unit of bikes or something trap a knight, and seeing them get trodden on by it, your opponent can surround a helverin with cultists and keep it there all day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 03:35:32


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Those cultists need something special way to get to helverin. About worst unit to try. Slow so they have hard time getting past big knights to helverins about foot minimum behind big knights.

Hormagaunts are more credible threat

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Sure, the cultists might not be able to get there on turn 1 – though alpha legion ones may well be able to. Units can go a very long way once they’ve moved, charged, piled in and consolidated.

I’m not trying to say that cultists are the best counter to helverins. I’m saying that loads of units are a problem for them. If the helverin kills 4-5 cultists, ork boyz or whatever a turn in turns 1 and 2 before getting swamped it’s still not a useful contribution to the game.

If you read back through this thread you’ll find a few accounts from people who’ve used helverins at events. Their stories back up what I’m saying. The Helverins did pretty well in some games but were useless in others, and overall were not really worth it.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Then again I have found helverins to be useful in every game while warglaives have sucked.

And cultists? Why you would be shooting them at cultists? Don't remember game when there wasn't some vehicle or beefier infantry on the opposite side than cultists. Only exception being orks but then again as my orks have found 8+ autocannon shots per model hurt anyway. Especially when they have effectively unlimited range so have no trouble avoiding combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 10:01:59


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Well I’ve played several games where the only available target was 1-200 orks. cultists, plaguebearers or whatever. It’s pretty common for armies to comprise chaff infantry and characters.

I’m not saying that Warglaives are good, and I’m not comparing Helverins to Warglaives. They are obviously totally different units that do different jobs in different ways, so it’s never a choice between one or the other. I’m saying both are a liability against hordes. They offer your opponent a safe place to put his guys – in combat with your armiger.

And of course it’s not just hordes that are the problem. Eldar can get jetbikes anywhere on the board in a turn. Smash captains can re-deploy. A random raven guard intercessor squad could use SftS and potentially lock down a Helverin for the whole game, unless you send a big knight to help.

GSKs, Wolves and Orks are getting their codexes soon, and there’s bound to be more bad news for Helverins in there.

This problem certainly isn’t limited to knights. Right now I don’t think that any shooty unit in 40k that can’t fall back and fire is truly competitive. One of the weirder changes in 8th has been that tanks have gone from being scary metal things that might run you over to soft cuddly things that you wanted to hug.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 11:09:59


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well. If smash captain goes hunting helverin it has done it's job and more. I rather lose helverin(at which point btw being tagged isn't worry) than full knight which BA smash captain is more than capable of one shotting. Actually that goes to lots of stuff. If they want to redeploy to rear(after clearing up IG screens from there which btw means no T1 helverin tag) and go hunt for lone helverin feel free. Less pressure to big knight.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Fair point. A smash captain list will just kill your actually dangerous units first, while letting your helverins kill ~20 points worth of IG a turn each.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Actually helverin is nice to have around to blow that smash captain once it's killed big knight. Tons of shots so good way to get through that 3++ and -1AP doesn't bother. Flat D3 meanwhile is nice for hunting those.

Though those buggers are still annoying as short of IG screen around you(which will at least save you 1 turn) there literally is nothing you can often do but hope for dices. Put in 9", charge with high chance, no overwatch, knight dies or at least is crippled. Not much more you can ask for hunting knight :-/

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Yeah, hopefully smash captains will be nerfed heavily, and other marine stuff will be improved to be worth taking.

I recently played a guy with 5 smash captains (2 of them deathwatch) and Mephiston. They hid behind an IG screen and a unit of 10 crusaders with 2+ invulnerable saves. Fun.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So, Helverins are fantastic vs Drukhari. They really put the hurt on their Ravagers and Raiders etc. But, when they are faced with only standard infantry squads (regardless of type or faction) they start to struggle. 8 shots on average is nice, yes, but you’re only hitting with 5 of them and probably wounding with 3-5 of them. A unit in cover will likely survive, and a 10-man basic infantry squad will just carry on afterwards.

When they work, they work really well, but I’ve found that in a lot of event games, they aren’t fantastic.
I’ve seriously started considering switching to Warglaives for the melta to pop vehicles, and then running another Knight with Gatling Cannon for the horde/light vehicle killing.

I also agree that big, durable horde style armies are still a “big thing” right now, however, I feel like it is starting to shift/will shift soon – however, the Ork release might change that again.

As for smash captains, I’d argue they’ve done their job better if they get in and kill a big Knight only to then die to a Helverin. I’d take that trade every day of the week. A Knight can potentially destroy your army. A Helverin can usually, at best, kill a couple of units.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Going to have to disagree with Helverins being bad.

Yes certain machups are worse than others, but i’ve never found my helverins to be useless. I feel like your overestimating how easy it is trap them. First, keep in mind Helverins don’t mind board hugging as a 74 (+d6 if raven) inch threat range gets nearly everywhere. This means that a 32 +2d6 charge range might not actually get you to a Helverin. Which brings me to my next point. It’s lot really that bad of thing if your opponent goes after them. For example, a quickened shinging spear unit will usually only be charge and kill one thing if they go after the Helverins. That means the rest of your knights are much safer. (Btw Helverins are pretty good at killing shining spears, one shot kills if they fail their +4/++4 save.)
Slam captains should always go after big knights, so I’d be quite happy to have a Helverin absorb one of their charges. And unless it’s genesteler cult most hords will have a hard time getting to the Helverins. At the very least they’re fast objective grabbers, which is always useful.

Finally, I’d like to point that a lot of armies find Helverins. The last game I played my helverins Helped finish off a couple of oppesing knights. 3 damage is a lot and adds up after enough hear and there shots get through. I believe it’s best not to dimiss a unit until after playing 4-5 games with it (unless there’s something that clearly is strictly-better than it.)
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Kdash wrote:

I’ve seriously started considering switching to Warglaives for the melta to pop vehicles, and then running another Knight with Gatling Cannon for the horde/light vehicle killing.


I find helverin decent even for that. Yeah -1AP only but flat D3 and lot more shots(8 vs 2 in average...) and ton more range. Reach from anywhere and no need to be within dirt close range for full effect.

As for smash captains, I’d argue they’ve done their job better if they get in and kill a big Knight only to then die to a Helverin. I’d take that trade every day of the week. A Knight can potentially destroy your army. A Helverin can usually, at best, kill a couple of units.


True that but alas not much you can DO except screen to delay. Killing them in advance you have pretty much shieldbreaker only and even with raven strategem that's super dodgy and requires them to not use DS to strike. However helverin at least can migate damage by providin way to get rid of it cheaply before it kills ANOTHER knight. Other option is gatling cannon but that's more expensive solution.

Fast, reasonably cheap, effectively unlimited range and flat D3 is pretty good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 06:22:44


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




having issues with objectives with my knight list - valliant, crusader & gallant

what would be a good option for objective holders

thinking 3 squads of scions with 2 commanders to DS in turn 3

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Asside from the standard 3x inf 2x cc

My first choice is

3xhwt mortar as that gives you some anti hoard and helps your backfield letting your infantry squads move move move to the midfield objectives 99pts

Next up a unit or 2 of rough riders to sweep in and grab an objective away from your starting lines 60pts with plasma guns

Scions are poor objective holders because they are squishy less tanky for their points and while they are certainly good for ds in and plasma spam they are not living more than 1 turn
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




daismith906 wrote:
having issues with objectives with my knight list - valliant, crusader & gallant

what would be a good option for objective holders

thinking 3 squads of scions with 2 commanders to DS in turn 3

It depends on the mission scoring your playing progressive scoring I'm not sure scions will help, end game maybe, but realy cheapest of the cheap infantry squad that posses no threat would be a good choice or scouts but your giving up a lot loosing Grand Strategists and Kurov's not to mention a msu marine battalion is 300 plus points, however if marines get price drops or Guard get nerfed come FAQ or CA they could be a good option though I see most people jumping to ad mech
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




cheers guys whats the best heavy weapons/special weapons if any to load ouit the standard x3 infantry squads?

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Guard are a fair price for what you get add a pt per man they would still see as much use in soup only mono guard players would suffer. Add to much and you replace guard with the next cheapest option.

Its the grand strategist trait thats the issue

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/24 13:16:21


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




U02dah4 wrote:
Guard are a fair price for what you get add a pt per man they would still see as much use in soup only mono guard players would suffer. Add to much and you replace guard with the next cheapest option.

Its the grand strategist trait thats the issue
I wasn't trying ro go off topic with the whole guard farm issue, more putting a qualifier that while basic infantry squads guard farm is currently the best the FAQ or CA could have a huge impact or no impact depending on what GW's change.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Just started magnetizing my Warglaives and was curious if I should magnetize the weapons for the potential to switch them around with helverins? Is that the only difference between the models, just the weapons loadouts?

Also,

tneva82 wrote:
Actually helverin is nice to have around to blow that smash captain once it's killed big knight.


Nice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/24 19:48:21


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





daismith906 wrote:
cheers guys whats the best heavy weapons/special weapons if any to load ouit the standard x3 infantry squads?
Mortars are amazing for their cost and if your playing ITC they are important to deny secondaries (unit size 9 instead of 10).
I wouldn't bother with any of the other options.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Facisminthe41m wrote:
Just started magnetizing my Warglaives and was curious if I should magnetize the weapons for the potential to switch them around with helverins? Is that the only difference between the models, just the weapons loadouts?

They don't need to be magnetized really. The arms have a sort of slot-fit arrangement so you can mount them, pose them as you like and even remove them to swap them. No magnets required.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Karhedron wrote:
Facisminthe41m wrote:
Just started magnetizing my Warglaives and was curious if I should magnetize the weapons for the potential to switch them around with helverins? Is that the only difference between the models, just the weapons loadouts?

They don't need to be magnetized really. The arms have a sort of slot-fit arrangement so you can mount them, pose them as you like and even remove them to swap them. No magnets required.
but can you get them on and off with the shoulder guards in place? I can do it on my questorus but I don't it for my Helverins.
   
 
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