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Hollismason wrote:Sternguard still have 2 attacks so I mean that is something at least.


The main problem though is them assaulting and killing the librarian.

#1: 2 ws4 s4 attacks that allow saves is about as scary as Michael Jackson before the plastic surgery. It means theyre no more scary than a basic CSM in combat.
#2: You can protect the librarian by having him boxed in by sternguard initially. When you do the counter charge move, you have to move IC's attached to the unit first. He can't move because people are boxing him in, then the people move. Means you dont get to attack with him that turn, but on the flip side, he's alive and kicking come next movement phase to gate out.

any value to adding vulcan to the list to reroll those melta shots? Maybe substituting a combi-flamer or two for the meltas in the squads?

dumbuket wrote:any value to adding vulcan to the list to reroll those melta shots? Maybe substituting a combi-flamer or two for the meltas in the squads?

Probably more value in adding pedro and having 6 extra scoring units.

proximity it absolutely right about that.

proximity wrote:

dumbuket wrote:any value to adding vulcan to the list to reroll those melta shots? Maybe substituting a combi-flamer or two for the meltas in the squads?

Probably more value in adding pedro and having 6 extra scoring units.

Adding pedro would also make them slightly better in combat with the extra +1 attack to all friendlies within 12" of him also. Yep 3 str 4 attacks with saves, VERY scary But good for a counter charge when the ammo just won't cut it. Why? Because Units of 10 sternguard churn out what? 20 shots max at full strength, yet ina Pedro force a unit of 10 on the charge churn out a respectable 40 attacks, which is still quite good, especially if the sergeant has a power weapon or fist as well.

That's kind of gimping the set up.


I mean lets see the purpose.

You drop in and shoot gak, using Nullzone as a way to deal with invulnerables ( does this work against cover?).

Adding Pedro or anything else messes up the combo, because you only have 1 libarian now.

Facing a librarian with Sternguard is brutal, especially Vengeance rounds. How do these work anyway should you roll them seperate?

You pretty much cut your own balls off by dropping that second librarian.

True, but then again, nay player worth their salt will see the list before the game begins, or at the least the models, figure out what they are up against and target everything at eliminating those 2 librarians before anything else happens. Stelek's first post actually describes deploying the librarians behind and away from the sternguard to keep him safe:

In another thread someone asked how to keep the Librarian safe.

Place him more than 12" away from the enemy. Entirely legal, and makes it very difficult for him to get into combat (on the first round).

But this may keep him safe from combat but does nothing against shooting. Blow the librarians away, and the sternguard are now wholly stuck in a more static firepower role. We could argue this back and forth, and indeed have, but what this thread really needs is people's break downs of games using it so as we can see how it PLAYS, as stuff always looks good on paper and it is only when the games begin that games get brutal and we can modify it from there. Solid list regardless even before playing...I got off track. If someone is gonna blow away those isolated librarians, throwing Pedro into the force, whilst cutting off half the mobility aspect, gives a different yet just as flexible build, less predictable as not only are there more scoring units, but a better ability to do damage in combat, because massed basic attacks work wonders, and saying they don't we just look at the Nids and the Hormagaunts attacking enmass.

Auretious Taak.

The only thing I would change out of that entire list is getting the librarians term armour at least this gives them a invulnerable save. Its not much but at least it helps.

Everything is good in theory.

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

I assume you'll drop the tacticals first, then the stern guard?

If you have first turn and they start in reserve/deep strike your army must be mostly or entirely on the board first and you lose most of the power of the list.

Plus your army is 50 space marine models who's effective range is 12 inches.

Hollismason wrote:The only thing I would change out of that entire list is getting the librarians term armour at least this gives them a invulnerable save. Its not much but at least it helps.

Everything is good in theory.

Yeah termie armour for sure, and no not everything is good in theory. "Oh Look, I'm gonna pack 2 min units of CSM's with Icons and a Lord and max out on Demons for a Demon Bomb Night mare! Yeah That's gotta work. I'm going second, woot! Oh wait!" You'd be surprised how many people are THAT stupid.

GeneralX wrote:
I assume you'll drop the tacticals first, then the stern guard?

If you have first turn and they start in reserve/deep strike your army must be mostly or entirely on the board first and you lose most of the power of the list.

Plus your army is 50 space marine models who's effective range is 12 inches.

Generally, all three Sternguard units should be dropped in the first round, while the Tacticals stay in reserve.

The problem is to cope with fast armies that are held in reserve like mech Eldar.
In that case, one may drop the Tacticals first so that they occupy objectives.

I could see going against a seperate drop pod army or reserve army with Khan for marines, like he said that would be a big problem if you lost first turn choice and had to go first.

Yes, if a drop podded army has to go first and the opponent has all of his units in reserve, then it could ran into problems.
As I said, in that case, I'm more inclined to drop the Tacticals first so that they can occupy objectives.
The opponent has one round to counter this, i.e., take on the Tacticals, before the cavalry (Sternguard) arrives.
Some opinions about this?

wuestenfux wrote:Yes, if a drop podded army has to go first and the opponent has all of his units in reserve, then it could ran into problems.
As I said, in that case, I'm more inclined to drop the Tacticals first so that they can occupy objectives.
The opponent has one round to counter this, i.e., take on the Tacticals, before the cavalry (Sternguard) arrives.
Some opinions about this?

I'd combat squad the tackies as they may get alot of unwanted attention and being the only scoring units in the force it's iffy. Actually you have to DS 1 unit of Sternguard as well, so you could actually set up a concentrated ringed area for defense or whatnot. Looking at the list, throwing 1 unit of Sternguard with say 2 lascannons or two multimelta's in there for this scenario so as you have much more concentrated heavy firepower to bring to bear on the enemy along with the Tactical squad could be a better idea. Yes you won't have the ability to move and fire with 2 guys and lose the bolter shots, but you only have 2 Librarians only so a support sternguard force could work, especially combat squadding them, and sticking the 2 heavy weapons in one unit if need be. It would make that first starting force more able to deal with a wider range of threats when they drop, because alot of players may drop waaay out of range of you so a pair of lascannon's contributing to the 'lets get you at range you mongrel' feeling would be appropriate and beneficial IMHO.

Auretious Taak.

I see what you mean. That looks quite interesting.
The Sternguard unit accompanying the Tacticals in the first round should somehow protect the Tacticals. For this, they may land further away from the enemy and so some heavy weapons may be benefitial.

Wait, how do you "blow the librarians away" exactly? They *are* independent characters, right?

Played this list tonight and got my ass handed to me.

2 Lash Prince
3 Squads of 6 Plagues in Rhinos, 2x Plasma
9 Oblits

His deploy was 6 olbits, 1 rhino and 2 DP on one flank protecting his obj.

2 rhinos and 3 oblits on the other flank, opposite my obj.

I elected to go second, and DPAssault next to the heavy 2DP side, which was a huge mistake.

Dropped both DPs w Hellfire, but lost almost all of the SG to plasma blasts from 9 oblits.

the tacs were mopped up shortly thereafter, but I screwed up here as well by dropping both pods away from my obj.

I see the power in the list and will def. give it another go, with better target priority.

Meltaguns cause instant death to Obliterators. Perhaps he had them hidden well back to make them either unhittable or making the drop too risky. But that seems like the better target priority choice if available.

ya it was a toss up, they had 4+ cover in a building.
figured getting lashed and stomped the next turn would have been worse?

def screwed up, next time =(

As awesome as this list is, it sort of makes me angry.

Don't get me wrong - I applaud Stelek for making the best list I've seen from the new Marine Codex.

But most of us Marine players probably don't want to pay for and assemble 5 drop pods, and making the combi-meltas WYSIWYG will be a nightmare.

I'm just irked that the Marines became even more two-dimensional. Better, harder, sure, but waaay less interesting.

I don't see how this codex makes them more "two-dimensional" or less interesting. This list is not the be-all, end-all of C:SM; there's a lot of different things you can play in the codex. If anything, the options have opened up for more variations; there's actually good assault units in the codex for once, along with more shooting options.

Okidan_Champion wrote:Played this list tonight and got my ass handed to me.

2 Lash Prince
3 Squads of 6 Plagues in Rhinos, 2x Plasma
9 Oblits

His deploy was 6 olbits, 1 rhino and 2 DP on one flank protecting his obj.

2 rhinos and 3 oblits on the other flank, opposite my obj.

I elected to go second, and DPAssault next to the heavy 2DP side, which was a huge mistake.

Dropped both DPs w Hellfire, but lost almost all of the SG to plasma blasts from 9 oblits.

the tacs were mopped up shortly thereafter, but I screwed up here as well by dropping both pods away from my obj.

I see the power in the list and will def. give it another go, with better target priority.

This is definitely one of the hardest list you can face. But you better had gone for the weak flank (as you said).

How would this list do against the demon lists out there? I could see flamer heavy or Khorne heavy lists potentially putting the hurt on this list. Am I wrong or anything that could deal with drop pod forces well could deal with this well?

Frazzled wrote:How would this list do against the demon lists out there? I could see flamer heavy or Khorne heavy lists potentially putting the hurt on this list. Am I wrong or anything that could deal with drop pod forces well could deal with this well?

As stated earlier and by stelek as well, the Libbies use their power that forces re-rolls on armour saves - flamers? may lose a combat unit to em, but meh, next turn lay the smack down on them and wipe em out.

wuestenfux 2008/10/16 18:27:45 Subject: Stelek's Sternguard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okidan_Champion wrote:
Played this list tonight and got my ass handed to me.

2 Lash Prince
3 Squads of 6 Plagues in Rhinos, 2x Plasma
9 Oblits

His deploy was 6 olbits, 1 rhino and 2 DP on one flank protecting his obj.

2 rhinos and 3 oblits on the other flank, opposite my obj.

I elected to go second, and DPAssault next to the heavy 2DP side, which was a huge mistake.

Dropped both DPs w Hellfire, but lost almost all of the SG to plasma blasts from 9 oblits.

the tacs were mopped up shortly thereafter, but I screwed up here as well by dropping both pods away from my obj.

I see the power in the list and will def. give it another go, with better target priority.

This is definitely one of the hardest list you can face. But you better had gone for the weak flank (as you said).

I agree with Wuestenfux here, however, the fear of lashed then charged will get 2 of your combatted units killed right as opposed to whatever got dropped by the oblits dropping in, and if the oblits were annihilated then yeah the 2 demon princes would have charged, but again 1 full unit of 10 gone instead of 2 or 3 units. Hmmm, how I think I would have done it would have deployed as you did combat squadded the lot and melta gunned the rhino, then the plague marines then the oblits. I'm tired. bed calls.

To annihilating the librarian independent characters, stelek on the first page answered the question on protecting them by dropping em 12" away from the units, either way they are separate to the units aren't they and if not units of 5 with a librarian = kill that squad completely first. Librarian is dead. Shoot through own guys and kill him? I'll read over the independent character rules again, haven't made it that far in the 5th ed rulebook yet to be honest.

Auretious Taak.

How would this list do against the demon lists out there? I could see flamer heavy or Khorne heavy lists potentially putting the hurt on this list. Am I wrong or anything that could deal with drop pod forces well could deal with this well?

Well, Daemons affected by null-zone have to re-roll invulnerable saves.
The outcome of the game is influenced by who goes first. Does it?
If the SM goes first, the three drop pods can be spread out which is bad for the Daemons.
The Daemons eventually shoot the drop podders in first round, but who cares, they cannot charge which is good. Their shooting is mostly crap anyway.
Then in round two, the two Librarians can use the beacons to redeploy two squads so that some Daemon packs are left in the open, far away from the action.
I guess you see what I mean.

Frazzled wrote:How would this list do against the demon lists out there? I could see flamer heavy or Khorne heavy lists potentially putting the hurt on this list. Am I wrong or anything that could deal with drop pod forces well could deal with this well?

see batrep for details... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/220335.page

demons do put the hurt on space marines. You gotta hope that your drop pods land AFTER his soul grinders land. Demons have some control on that. You may get lucky as they stuff their grinders in their non-preferred wave, then roll a '1' and have to go first. Or you may have to go first, have the enemies soul grinders both show up on 2, and really hurt your sternguard.

Or everything might go well, then you whiff with your combi-meltas on the grinders.

I admit to playing a little too cavalier in that batrep. I think you can do a little better with a much more conservative style. But my initial findings are that demons are about as tough of a mismatch to space marines as orks are to demons...

Winnable, but not without out-playing your opponent and/or more than a little bit of luck.

Well, Daemons are a tough nut to crack for Space Marines.
But with some tactics as outlined above it can be achieved.
The summoning of the Daemons has some flaws even if the waves appear in the right order.

Any ideas how you might adapt this to 1500 points? I was having a play, and the best I could come up with was:


2xLibrarians w/Null Zone + Gate of Infinity.
1xtactical squad, flamer/multi-melta, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon + Deathwind.
1 Scout Squad w/ 5 Scouts. Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
2xsternguard squads w/8 combi-meltas, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon + Deathwind.
1xsternguard Squad only 7 Strong w/ 6 combi-meltas, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon + Deathwind.

Obviously, you sacrifice a potential scoring unit (if you combat squaded), plus a drop pod (and hence a gate point) for a scout squad of dubious utility and survivability, but it was the only way I could think of doing it without sacrificing a sternguard squad. You could also change it so each sternguard squad is only 9 strong, but then you loose a lot of combat squad potential.

I guess another option would be to ditch the Tactical squads in drop pods entirely and instead:

2xLibrarians w/Null Zone + Gate of Infinity.
2xsternguard squads w/8 combi-meltas, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon + Deathwind.
1xsterguard squad only 6 strong, Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon + Deathwind.
2x Tactical Squads, flamer/multi

But then you loose a fair bit of manoeuvrability on the tactical squads, as well as some sternguard.

I don't know, it's tricky. Anyone got any ideas?

I´m adapting your list to my stile of play, also to 2.000 points witch is what we play in my area....

HQ:
Pedro Kantor+3 Honor Guards+Drop Pod+Deathwind M.L+Locator Beacon 355
Librarian+Stormbolter+Gate of Infinity+Null Zone 103

Troops:
10 Tact marines+Multimelta+Meltagun+Drop Pod 210
5 Scouts+4 Snipper Rifles+Missile Launcher 85

Elites:
10 Sternguards+Power Fist+10 CombiMeltas+Drop pod+Deathwind M+Beacon 390
5 Sternguards+Power Fist+4 CombiMeltas 170
1 Inquisitor+Auspex+2 Mistics+3 Gun Servitors+3 Heavy Bolters 109

Heavy Support:
6 Devastators+4 Plasma cannon 206
6 Devastators+4 Plasma cannon 206
6 Devastators+4 Missile Launcher 166

I refuse to go without a CC Unit, so Pedro´s Honnor Guard will do the job, and that will be the first Pod to land.
2nd Pod will be the 10 Sternguards and I will gate the other 5 with the librarian instead of using a 3rd drop pod for them.
SO far We got 1x10 sternguards with 10 combimeltas, 1 Lbrarian with 5 Sternguard that in most of th battles will reach something to rapid fire in this 1st turn,
and the Pedro Kantor HtH Squad to be droped where it hurts more. (its 13 power weapons attack charging plus 4 powerfist hits) also they got bolters to fire.

Now we also have my favorite 5th Ed. Metagame unit, the inquisitor + the mistics and HB deployed near a Plasma devastators squad, he even got a Auspex

And my core Playing marines Squads, 2x6 Plasma cannon devastators and 1x6 Missile launchers devastator.

This list is strong for a tournament.

Nice Army again Stelek,

Like it better than the DE one because its mobility is downright kinky, and marines in drop pods are a class act.

OTG