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Stelek wrote: (Kantor is expensive)

Kantor is only 25pts more than a base gear Epistolary Librarian.

But it still looks rather 'ard.

Don't think I'm going to be going to GT's for a while sadly.

ChrisAsmadi wrote:

Stelek wrote: (Kantor is expensive)

Kantor is only 25pts more than a base gear Epistolary Librarian.

But it still looks rather 'ard.

True, but why would I buy a Epistolary Librarian?

Not needed in this list, so he's 75 points more...loses me a librarian...and costs me combat tactics on my sternguard.

Fail. Epic fail.

Incidentally, how do you handle Monoliths?

Just go for phase out?

Sternguard beat the crap out of Necrons in CC fyi.

I can usually just outshoot them where I need to though.

I'm worried less about Monoliths as time goes on. Necrons need a new Dex badly.

Sushicaddy wrote:

Stelek wrote:Can't go to 2+ saves, you can't GTG if you turbo-boosted.

indeed. my mistake.

regardless, this is a rock hard list. are you considering it for GTs?

I think you have just ignored the main question , what's the tatic against bikenobs ?

Fire 24 meltaguns at them is usually what you do.

One 4+ save away from a very expensive death.

3+ if they boosted around.

I'll take my chances with those odds at frying some biker nobs.

You do know you can't take every army down with every army, right? If you could, we'd all be playing 'that army'.

Stelek wrote:You do know you can't take every army down with every army, right? If you could, we'd all be playing 'that army'.

...

Stelek wrote:These 'Armies of Death' are armies that work best against all armies

ok 24melta shots against turbo boosted bike nobs , 24*2/3*5/6*1/3 =4.4 died nobs ,then get ready for what's left.

also Battlewagons with nob unit in them, you blow the wagon up and next turn the nob unit just charge & slaughter your whole unit.

If I was going to field a Sternguard unit I would go with a full unit in a drop pod and 2x heavy flamer. Attach the Epistolary with the Veil psychic power and S6 AV3 template psychic power. Basically drop in the first turn and nuke your opponent's most potent unit if they are out there... otherwise keep the pod in reserve and wait for things to open up. If daemon armies become very popular then I would switch the template psychic power for the force your opponent to re-roll successful invulnerable saves... just have to wait and see how things shake out.

G

Not to mention if an Ork opponent manages to Deff Roll a unit or three of Sternguard...

Yes, incredibly likely with battlewagons.

+1 open topped? Somehow survived how many meltashots?

Seems far-fetched.

Stelek wrote:

Well, part of the S&T in this army is this:

What happens when you present your enemy with ZERO choices?

You lose. Often.

What happens when you give the enemy many targets, and more than a single choice?

You win. Often.

Agreed, and that's a good point. One of my chess teachers taught me that good strategy should not rely upon the enemy making mistakes. I too try to force lots of (often seemingly similar) choices on opponents. The ones who kicjk my butt are usually those who see through said plethora of choice to the vital units. Thus having a good core strategy (underneath the veil of poor choices presented to the opponent) is a good idea. You have one:

The trick is, the sternguard are NOT scoring units.

Only the tacticals are.

The tacticals will arrive and hide on turn 2 and turn 3.

If you are trying to kill the sternguard--I will probably win because drop pods on objectives + marines = contested and I only need 1 marine out of 20 marines to survive and sieze an objective to win.

If you ignore the sternguard and try to kill the tacticals--the sternguard will annihilate most armies that try it.

Now on the other hand if all I do is give you a bunch of scoring marines, you will just kill the sternguard (what I do not want) and then contest my objectives while you secure yours. Some players might try this ANYWAY, but at least it's going against the grain of my army and not against the weak side of it--so I have a chance.

...however, I contend that a canny opponent will do exactly what you say one could do here, _especially_ if your sternguard are not scoring. I would throw a fairly tenacious tarpit unit (like Avengers with PW/SS or 13+ gaunts) at the Sternguard to keep them busy while primary assault units (say, Banshees) go after the tacs until they are dead. Combat squads will make this harder, but something like Stealer Shock will still be able to pursue all of them. Once the tacs are dead, whatever killed them can head for sternguard, but whether they die or not is less important than keeping them occupied and unable to kill the opponent's scoring units. Meanwhile, the opponent's holding units (like Pathfinders or whatever throwaway infantry that have gone to ground on a distant objective) are securing the winning objective. Even if the Sternguard do get loose, your choice then becomes rescuing the last of your tacs or mauling the enemy scorers, which may be far away.

Once folks figure out this pattern, they will go for it every time IMO. I think you have coined a good build that may become standard, but warn that there may be a standard response that will become well known too. Hard, concentrated armies like this confirm my choice of Pathfinder units for holding those distant objectives in GT builds, even if the rest of my list is mech.

Make sense?

Yes it does. It would be interesting to see how tactics evolve around this build when people (say a given opponent who sees it often) start using a common response, and you then have to adapt or do the unpredictable.

Please do post batreps with this list sometime.

Question about the Librarian's teleport power, can he teleport Allies or just Space Marines?

battlewagon nobs have less of a chance against this list than biker nobs due to the 4+(or 3+) cover save of the biker nobs.

2 nob squads in wagons - around 500-600 points each

squad 1 meltas nob wagon 1, blows it up.
squad 2 meltas the nob squad 1, kill 5-6
squad 3 meltas the nob wagon 2 blows it up
pod 1 deathwinds nob squad 2 kill 1-2
pod 2 deathwinds nob squad 2 kill 1-2
pod 3 deathwinds nob squad 2 kill 1-2

nob sqaud 1 takes test at a 7 with a re-roll
nob squad 2 takes a 7 with a re-roll

lets say for arguments sake that both nob squads pass. then they charge? then sternguard are still ws4 st 4 I4 A2 marines, and 10 vs 4 is good odds for the sternguad+librarian.

or lets say both squads attack on marine squad. either you kill them all, or they get away due to the librarian power. either way you need to absorb another round of sternguard fire from 2 sqauds PLUS a tac squad may pod in.

If you have a ork warboss in with each nob squad it's even worse, as the librarian will likely kill a warboss with his force weapon.

so lets say that the orks kill an entire sternguard squad, the remaining sternguard can charge in a kill the rest of the ork nobs pretty easily with 60 ws 4 st 4 i4 attacks + 4 force weapon attacks (another dead warboss).

now you are down around 1400 points in a 1750 point game, and the game is pretty much won by the marines, on marine turn 2

I agree that the nob bikers will fare a lot better against this army, but hey, it's one of the few, and most people don't run 2 nob biker squads at 600 a pop (plus two biker bosses at around 300 for both) at 1750. additionaly, like stelek said, a few bad die rolls, and the biker mobs are HURTING.

I like it. It's not what I would run, but I like it.

BTW with the drop pod assault rules, those sternguard can drop in on turn 1 BEFORE nob bikers get to turbo boost.

If you sit pathfinders on distant objectives, sternguard can drop and kill them too, or kill a bunch of your army and then teleport over to them. You don't have to run across the board with a librarian.

Froggage wrote:BTW with the drop pod assault rules, those sternguard can drop in on turn 1 BEFORE nob bikers get to turbo boost.

If you sit pathfinders on distant objectives, sternguard can drop and kill them too, or kill a bunch of your army and then teleport over to them. You don't have to run across the board with a librarian.

true, but they can still gtg. either way they are getting a 3+ cover save. however, I have totally failed 7 3+ coversaves in a turn*... how about you?


*I've also made 15 3+ saves in a turn. it's the fun of dice rolling



I think we are now officially beating a dead horse now.

If somebody's 600 point biker nob unit is going to ground turn 1 you have already won.

I am usually on the fail 18 of 21 3+ saves side of the luck.

I like Karl Malone enjoy beating a dead horse to death...

If they are on the board on turn 1, you've already won.

Sushicaddy wrote:battlewagon nobs have less of a chance against this list than biker nobs due to the 4+(or 3+) cover save of the biker nobs.

2 nob squads in wagons - around 500-600 points each

squad 1 meltas nob wagon 1, blows it up.
squad 2 meltas the nob squad 1, kill 5-6
squad 3 meltas the nob wagon 2 blows it up
pod 1 deathwinds nob squad 2 kill 1-2
.......

when units disembark from destoryed vehicles ,they could jump off behind the wrecks , this way they have 4+ coversave, unless the vehicles were exploded.

and you do really think two S4 attacks could wound a T5(T6 with bike) IC that easy? 1/3 chance I say ,to the other 2/3 the warboss will more likely finish him off.

Stelek wrote:If they are on the board on turn 1, you've already won.

correct , you rarely have a chance to concentrate all three units' melta fire to one bike unit , they just stay in reserve and let you land your pads .

Seems like a fitting place to ask this question, considering how much DS this army has.

Against the new scout speeder, what happens if you're trying to come in with your beacon within the range of the DS interrupt thing the speeder has?

ED209 wrote:

Stelek wrote:If they are on the board on turn 1, you've already won.

correct , you rarely have a chance to concentrate all three units' melta fire to one bike unit , they just stay in reserve and let you land your pads .

Of course, you land your pods more than 18" away from the board edge (if possible), and just gate them into the nob units when needed.

The fact that you can deep strike two sternguard units every turn seems lost on people.

Doing so off of drop pod locator beacons is just alot of win.

Lormax wrote:Seems like a fitting place to ask this question, considering how much DS this army has.

Against the new scout speeder, what happens if you're trying to come in with your beacon within the range of the DS interrupt thing the speeder has?

It annoys you and you deep strike anyway.

Having multiple scout speeders makes for a fun 'go away demons and drop podders' army list.

Drop pods at least could really care less, it's not like they'll die.

Demons? Oh right, they're "competitive" and double scatter and icons not functioning just makes them so much more fun.

The scout speeder can sit in front of your army and prevent most deep strikers from landing.

When you combine it with a inquisitor w/mystics in a land raider...yes, demon players won't even play you.

Land speeders are easy to destroy.

G

yes, they are easy to destroy...except when they only need to start on the board to do their damage, since you start with nothing on the board.

Except they have a measly 6" range. Shouldn't be too hard to drop outside of that range.

ED209 wrote:

Stelek wrote:These 'Armies of Death' are armies that work best against all armies

ok 24melta shots against turbo boosted bike nobs , 24*2/3*5/6*1/3 =4.4 died nobs ,then get ready for what's left.

also Battlewagons with nob unit in them, you blow the wagon up and next turn the nob unit just charge & slaughter your whole unit.

Then...

ED209 wrote:

Sushicaddy wrote:battlewagon nobs have less of a chance against this list than biker nobs due to the 4+(or 3+) cover save of the biker nobs.

2 nob squads in wagons - around 500-600 points each

squad 1 meltas nob wagon 1, blows it up.
squad 2 meltas the nob squad 1, kill 5-6
squad 3 meltas the nob wagon 2 blows it up
pod 1 deathwinds nob squad 2 kill 1-2
.......

when units disembark from destoryed vehicles ,they could jump off behind the wrecks , this way they have 4+ coversave, unless the vehicles were exploded.

and you do really think two S4 attacks could wound a T5(T6 with bike) IC that easy? 1/3 chance I say ,to the other 2/3 the warboss will more likely finish him off.

So let's pretend like you have two nob units in two battlewagons.

I have 3 sternguard units dropping on you.

I combat squad one sternguard, and blow up both battlewagons.

My other sternguard are surrounding just one battlewagon, and blow those nobs away. Cover saves = meaningless against sternguard, thanks for playing is about all that conjures up.

Now your other nob unit charges forward, and kills a sternguard unit.

Then, my other sternguard massacre it.

Where's the problem?

We don't really need to get into the precise deep strike patterns you can do with gate and locator beacons, right?

Right.

kadun wrote:Question about the Librarian's teleport power, can he teleport Allies or just Space Marines?

Anyone in his army seems eligible, if he can join their unit.

Nurglitch wrote:Except they have a measly 6" range. Shouldn't be too hard to drop outside of that range.

Except they don't.

You've seen that huge model turned sideways, right?

Now bring three of them.

Then add in a Land Raider with Inquisitor + Mystics stuck inside.

Yeah...go ahead and drop 24" away.

That always works out well for Demons.