Switch Theme:

Bikes charge 12 or 6?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





reds8n wrote:
Augustus wrote:
I think you are right! We should follow the basic rules for infantry, how far do infantry move in the assault phase?

It says infantry move 6 in the assault phase, doesn't it? Actually it doesn't, the Assault phase rules don't even refer to infantry at all! It only talks about units. Check it! It says units move at the same speed as in the movement phase...

The reason infantry assault 6 inches is because they also move 6 in the movement phase. The assault rules do not define an infantry assault distance, they never refer to infantry specifically, just to units.

Bikes assault 12 because they move 12 in the movement phase for the same reason.


...when page 33 talks about "units" it defaultly mean infantry units.

I find it astonishing the number of people who claim this is a RAW "loophole" but yet seem incapable of actually following the principles of RAW.


But it doesn't say infantry their red, it says units, infantry are a subset of units certainly. Don't you think if it was meant to say infantry, it would say infantry. The multiple 'unit' meaning is literal, not misquoting, you and others are reading meaning into a sentence to defend the precedent where there is no additional specification. Essentially by reading page 33:

"The Maximum most units can move during an assault is 6"."

instead as:

"The default infantry can move during an assault is 6"."

or

"An assault move is 6" unless specified otherwise."

Which is not what it literally says. Furthermore, it is not a loophole, it is the literal reading of the rules.

What surprises me reds8n is the number of people who blindly defend the 6 inch move with no case other than, that's how it worked in 4th edition.


   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Augustus, where's my pie?

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Moz wrote:Whilst the discussion is in the spirit of the YMDC 'we discuss the RAW'. It degrades the usefulness of YMDC overall. There was a time where I could be in a rules discussion at my FLGS and could cite a topic on dakka as a relevant argument for why it should be played that way. Nowadays I would just be ashamed to admit that I read most of this.


Oh come now? That's to bad to hear. Because playing by 4th edition precedents instead of reading the rulebook is the right way to do things? I suggest that's a bit academically flaccid. I suppose there are a lot of entries in this thread that come down to:

Try this at my store and you will be [hurt, beaten up, laughed at, my mom will stop you] etc. and they don't ad content but the structured arguments have good content in them, with well written details page quotes and logic!

Look at threads like this as an opportunity to use the ignore feature, it works well.

Moz wrote:Onward with the RAW discussion. Another element against your interpretation Augustus is that movement distances are explicitly stated as 'may move X " in the movement phase'. Now we are using the rules for the movement phase, but we are not in the movement phase . In order to move any distance at all in the assault phase, it must be specified how far you are allowed to move. Most units move 6", jetbikes and cavalry have special exceptions.


It says infantry move 6 in the assault phase, doesn't it? Actually it doesn't, the Assault phase rules don't even refer to infantry at all! It only talks about units. Check it! It says 'units' move at the same speed as in the movement phase...

The reason infantry (a kind of unit) assault 6 inches is because they also move 6 in the movement phase. The assault rules do not define an infantry assault distance, they never refer to infantry (a kind of unit) specifically, just to units generally, where it say 'units' move in assault with the same rules as the movement phase.

Bikes (another kind of unit) assault 12 because they move 12 in the movement phase for the same reason infantry assault 6.
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Augustus, You're still ducking my point. Answer or stop this ridiculous argument and give me my pie.

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Widowmaker






Syracuse, NY

Augustus it does tell us how far infantry units move: most move 6" in the assault phase, as a part of the 'most' category (that is, units without special rules dictating otherwise) infantry move 6" in the assault phase. Rules that are specific to the movement phase will have no bearing on this, despite the fact that the rules for the movement phase are used for assault movements. I'm thinking that it's actually sort of clever that it is written this way, since the movement rules only ever reference the movement phase when discussing distances moved.

The assault phase is not another movement phase.

You would say: My bikes move 12" in the movement phase, so they assault 12".
I would say: This is not the movement phase, as such your bikes behave like any other unit and assault 6".

   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







As much as i like Mr T's turtle pie, bring them up as part of the debate only weakens your argument

on page 51 we are asked to follow all the same rules as infantry ... when assaulting we follow the same rules as in the movement phase ...and this is where the rule brake and you can go ether way

A)Bikes can move 12" in the movement phase so they can also move 12" in the assault phase
or
B)Bikes can move 12" in the movement phase that only mean they can move 12" in the "movement phase" ... in the assault phase they fall back on the infantry rules and move 6" but are not slowed by difficult terrain

nether rule is 100% i fall on the B) side since that's how it was played in 4th ... Now could GW have made a massive change and not told any one?(writing it in the BGB doesn't count) yep bikes now get cover saves when turbo-boosting, they get Relentless, scouts can turbo-boosting in their scout move (thanks FAQ)

GW could have solved all this with moves 6", or moves 12"
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Tri wrote:As much as i like Mr T's turtle pie, bring them up as part of the debate only weakens your argument

on page 51 we are asked to follow all the same rules as infantry ... when assaulting we follow the same rules as in the movement phase ...and this is where the rule brake and you can go ether way

A)Bikes can move 12" in the movement phase so they can also move 12" in the assault phase
or
B)Bikes can move 12" in the movement phase that only mean they can move 12" in the "movement phase" ... in the assault phase they fall back on the infantry rules and move 6" but are not slowed by difficult terrain


Almost. We're told to follow the same rules for movement, NOT the specific ( ie bikes in this case) UNITS rules for movement. The exception being--as it states-- that you can now go within 1" of an enemy model. The only other changes we have to follow are any listed under the Assault rules caveats of the bike rules. The only rule here is they ignore difficult terrain and treat this as dangerous terrain instead. Therefore bikes still follow the rest of the normal assault rules and only assault 6".

The only way you could choose to follow your point A) is by misreading what is written. Which cannot be defined as RAW then by any stretch of the imagination.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Oh



But it doesn't say infantry their red, it says units, infantry are a subset of units certainly. Don't you think if it was meant to say infantry, it would say infantry. The multiple 'unit' meaning is literal, not misquoting, you and others are reading meaning into a sentence to defend the precedent where there is no additional specification.


No, it does refer to infantry. AGAIN, I'll refer you to the little box on page 52 "Different unit types", which explains that ALL the rules so far have refered to infantry. IT's the default terminology, much as we use the male pro noun generally.

You're the one misreading stuff.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Only brought up pie when he started ducking my point. The point of proper use of reading comprehension for determining sentence meaning.

In the assault portion of the rule it says Most units move 6". The use of the Qualifier here acknowledges that there will be some units that do not. With the use of A hard number, 6", the sentence becomes an unless otherwise stated clause with 6" as the default.

Cavalry acceeds to this convention with the statement that they charge 12". There is no such statement for bikers. Nowhere in the BRB does it say or even clearly imply that there is a 12" assault for the bikers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/04 20:43:38


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne






Steelmage99 wrote:I think a few people need to read up on the rules of this forum.

We are not discussing wether this is a good idea, wether we would use this in an actual game or wether it is fluffy or not.
We are discussing what the rules actually say.
A lot of what goes on in the YMDC, is purely intellectual exercises. We all know this. It has been so for ages.


Moz wrote:Whilst the discussion is in the spirit of the YMDC 'we discuss the RAW'. It degrades the usefulness of YMDC overall. There was a time where I could be in a rules discussion at my FLGS and could cite a topic on dakka as a relevant argument for why it should be played that way. Nowadays I would just be ashamed to admit that I read most of this.


Moz, there are certain rules in 40k that have no easy answer because of the inconsistencies in language/verbage/style that GW uses to write their rules. The reason we come here is not to be able to settle a dispute for every rule out there that may pop up, but rather to increase awareness of some of the really big rule humdingers that can derail a game very quickly. With increased awareness, we can discuss with our opponents and avoid arguments and at least have an understanding of where the rules breakdown. There are many instances like this in the rules, and unfortunately there are no real good answers.

Recent examples would be, Eldrad's Staff, single or double handed, and the whole FNP transferring to the unit with a joined IC nonsense. Don't forget Deff Rollaz.

Reaching into the way-back machine, this was true in 3rd/4th edition as well, with Siren and Grey Knights.

Saying that you're embarrassed by threads like these is not the fault of the players, but rather the fault of GW's poor rules writing.

My own personal opinion is that the assault rules mention 6" as the normal assault move that most units can make, but the intent was that a specific unit would add a clarifier if it could move farther in the assault phase. Examples here would be Warp Spiders and Stormboyz led by Zagstruk. However, the rules are not ironclad here and I could see how it's possible to think that bikes may be allowed a 12" assault. I think that position is inherently weaker than the other side, but it's hard to say for certain which is more correct beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.

Whitedragon Paints! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/613745.page 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Professional




Empire Of Denver, Urth

Amen, Whitedragon!

“It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood” -- Karl Popper 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







Help us, Obi-Wan Yakface; you're our only hope.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






I agree, whitedragon. Well said.

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Agreed. Once you know what the rules actually say and the problems that causes, then you can move on and make any adjustments or house rules you deem necessary before a problem arises.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

I'm going to have to agree with the 12" assault for the reason stated before. However, I'll never play it that way. It is IMO a poor worded situation. Bikes have been a 6" assault for 10+ years, I see no reason why its 12" now.

See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






Jayden63 wrote:I'm going to have to agree with the 12" assault for the reason stated before. However, I'll never play it that way. It is IMO a poor worded situation. Bikes have been a 6" assault for 10+ years, I see no reason why its 12" now.


So Tyranids can be screwed in a different way.

Every other new rule tends to bend us over pretty hard, why not this one since Tyranids don't have bikes?

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne






Mattlov wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:I'm going to have to agree with the 12" assault for the reason stated before. However, I'll never play it that way. It is IMO a poor worded situation. Bikes have been a 6" assault for 10+ years, I see no reason why its 12" now.


So Tyranids can be screwed in a different way.

Every other new rule tends to bend us over pretty hard, why not this one since Tyranids don't have bikes?


Please....Tyranids hardly suffer that badly in 5th. Now if you replace "Tyranids" with "Necrons", then I can agree with you.

Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.

Whitedragon Paints! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/613745.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Florida

whitedragon wrote:
Mattlov wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:I'm going to have to agree with the 12" assault for the reason stated before. However, I'll never play it that way. It is IMO a poor worded situation. Bikes have been a 6" assault for 10+ years, I see no reason why its 12" now.


So Tyranids can be screwed in a different way.

Every other new rule tends to bend us over pretty hard, why not this one since Tyranids don't have bikes?


Please....Tyranids hardly suffer that badly in 5th. Now if you replace "Tyranids" with "Necrons", then I can agree with you.


Also include: Tau, Guard, DH

Comparing tournament records is another form of e-peen measuring.
 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit






wait wait wait wait... huh..?

Oh.. and space marines!! We got screwed....

Anyways, I will be a mouth breather here and agree with the OP, from my re-reading of the codex (however insubstantial that was) there is nothing that restricts the movement of bikers to 6"s.

However, I will hide this loophole from my friends for as long as possible in the hopes that the white scars don't start whooping up on me like they used to :*(

I play (homegrown chapter)
Win 8
Draw1
Loss1

Follow the word of the Turtle Pie. Bathe your soul in its holy warmth and partake in its delicious redemption. Let not the temptation of Lesser desserts divert you, for All is Pie, and Turtle is All

97% of people have useless and blatantly false statistics in their sigs, if you are one of the 8% who doesn't, paste this in your sig to show just what a rebel you are 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Welcome to 40K the gathering.


Your taking parts from 4 pages to create the illusion of a rule.

Following basic english rules of reading the most units assault 6" sets up the only distance during assault stated except for the "Noted" exception of the beasts/cavalry.

Sentences from one paragraph are not used to modify the meaning of sentences from another. If they do there is to be a reference to the aforementioned sentence.

There has been no other modifier to the rule stated in the BRB.

Please go back to playing yu-gi-oh and leave the game I enjoy to those of us that are not that ****ing Guy

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Wow i finally got done reading all 5 pages!!! With that all i have to say is Focusedfire here's your pie!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/05 05:04:34


 
   
Made in us
Hunter with Harpoon Laucher




Castle Clarkenstein

Have fun finding an opponent Augustus. Or maybe that's why you have so much time to argue nonsense. Your arguement's going to get either blank stares or outright laughter at any tournament.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Colorado

Augustus is one of the most well respected and feared tourney players in Colorado. He will have no trouble finding opponents. And I doubt he will play this rule the way he reads it until clarified.

NoTurtlesAllowed.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

What part of Colorado? Is he playing at Gamers Haven?


@Bradmammajamma- mmmmm Pie, thank you. Sweet tooth satified, savage beast soothed, me shut up now.



edited for humor

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/05 05:33:06


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Colorado

Augustus is from Denver, he will sometimes make the trip to the Haven anual or the Air Force Academy tourney.

NoTurtlesAllowed.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

AAAHHH, there is a lot of military in the area. Some decent games for a state so isolated.

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Colorado

To throw some fuel on the fire, I presented the argument to a friend of mine who is a retired college professor of litterature with a masters in language.

to quote "It does not matter that they say for most this will be 6. What matters is that move and assault are the same no matter what. The rest is poor writing."

NoTurtlesAllowed.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Did you present the argument or give him the book to actually flip through? If its the second, by which college is he employed?

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Colorado

She is retired from the University of Miami, and I presented the argument and the book.

NoTurtlesAllowed.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Glad I never wasted money at U of Miami.

Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: