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Was going to post this in an edit but felt it should be out front.

Moz your words and some privately from teirlib, have made me realize that after receiving a condescending tone from a couple of posters that I was Dumb enough to allow myself to become somewhat rude and insulting. To all posters that may have been offended or irritated, My apologies.

Teirlib, feel free to call me on such behavior in public. But when you do so. Do it clearly, easy on the sarcasm because it almost went the other way befroe moz's words sank in.


To the OP, to me some of how this was approached came across as trollish and I responded in kind. I apologize for my statements. I still disagree but I do apologize.


If anyone feels the need to berate me please feel free to msg for the next day or two.

Sorry to Double Post

But I am going to show a logical reading/progression that must be made if we follow that 1 fateful line.

1) "....following the same rules as in the movement phase." found on page 34 for moving assaulting models

2) we move to the Movement phase to find out what the "rules" are. Starting on page 11 - 14.

****Everyone**** Stop and read the "Movement Phase" in your BGB.

3) As you have read, these are rules for infantry. You will also note that there were no rules for any other unit type in that entire section besides infantry. Everything from how far you can move (6") to coherency (2") to treating difficult and dangerous terrain only talks from an infantry point of view and none other. However there is a pretty picture of a Rhino on page 12.

4) Move to page 51 where you will find a caveat to the different unit types. I am not going to type it out. So read the first paragraph on page 51. You will find it basically says to follow all the rules for infantry unless specified in the unit rules differently.

5) move to page 53 (bikes) Here it tells us how bikes differ from infantry as noted on step (4). You will note that you can move 12" in the movement phase (not infantry) and you may ignore difficult terrain and treat it as dangerous terrain instead (not infantry) and it goes into detail about additional protection and special shooting rules that make it different to infantry. No where in there does it say 'move in assault the same pace as you move in the movement phase'

6) as per page 51 step (4) and page 34 step (2 and 3) that movement rules are infantry rules. I.E. move as infantry or 6".


So there you have it.

This *is* RAW folks
Live it
Love it
Learn it

Edited for clarity

And

The OP will have you believe that "following the same rules as in the Movement phase" is saying if you move at 'x' you can assault as 'x'. But no where in the rules for the movement phase (pages 11 - 14) as you have read does it say anything about moving at any speed other than 6". The only thing keeping bikes from moving 6" in the movement phase as well is the caveat provided on page 51, and then explained on pg 53 (bikes). The OP would also have you believe that the rules for bikes tells us that you move 12" in the assault phase. As you have read. It doesn't.

Can a Mod please close this now, pull an Inquisition, and mind scrub us all.

Steelmage99 wrote:Sure we did. And I asked the following question;

Gaz

Gaz wrote:

This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.

That is what it means, nothing more. Stop trying to add your own qualifications to a term that they've already clearly defined.

If that is what it means (and nothing more) then the assaulters are not affected by difficult terrain, coherency rules, "Move at the speeed of the slowest" and other important rules, are they?

....he chose not to answer.

And what was there to answer? Of course you follow the rules for the Assault phase, which is what those are. Try finding a rule that only applies to the Movement phase and not both phases or just the Assault phase. You're trying to take a Movement phase-only rule and apply it to the Assault phase. For example, the Assault rules clearly address coherency right there on the bottom of page 34.

NEWS FLASH!!!

The dark eldar FAQ explicitly states their jetbikes can only assault 6", even if they roll for the combat drug affect that allows you to assault 12".

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:NEWS FLASH!!!

The dark eldar FAQ explicitly states their jetbikes can only assault 6", even if they roll for the combat drug affect that allows you to assault 12".

G

Well that makes sense, drugs don't make vehicles go faster...

The rider might THINK he's going faster though...

I think it is obvious the 6" restriction applies to all units mounted on bikes.

G

Mattlov wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:NEWS FLASH!!!

The dark eldar FAQ explicitly states their jetbikes can only assault 6", even if they roll for the combat drug affect that allows you to assault 12".

G

Well that makes sense, drugs don't make vehicles go faster...

The rider might THINK he's going faster though...

unless that drug is Speed. (sorry I had to chime in)

thehod wrote:

Mattlov wrote:Well that makes sense, drugs don't make vehicles go faster...

The rider might THINK he's going faster though...

unless that drug is Speed. (sorry I had to chime in)

Augustus wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Augustus wrote:There is no rule in the book that says all units assault move as infantry unless stated otherwise (that's the 4th edition paradigm). What the rule says is units use the same rules they do in the movement phase as I have been saying all along.

Except there is such a rule, as we keep telling you.

Different Unit Types
So far the rules have just dealt with troops that
move around on foot – infantry. This section
covers different unit types, and these not only
add new tactical elements to your games, but
also more complexity to the rules. These unit
types have different rules for the way they move,
how terrain affects them, how far they can
assault, and so on. You will find that Codexes
often add even more changes and exceptions for
specific models. In any given situation during a
battle, if the Codex doesn’t say any different,
follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and
if those rules don’t say anything different, follow
the basic rules for infantry.If you’re just starting out....

...

Bold emphasis mine. Notice how in your first italic emphasis it always refers to 'unit'? Disregarding the part about codex exceptions disqualifying the entire second quote of yours (we are after all just talking about the core rules here) the unit type is bikes reds8n, they do have a special rule for movement, they move 12. That is the rule to follow, the next sentence following the comma doesn't apply, because the unit type is bikes. The rules for the unit type do say something, they say they move 12.

Good quote.

The codex exception in no way disqualifies the rest of the statement whatsoever, it merely clarifies the situation with regards to priority, otherwise, for example, WAzzdakka and similar couldn't have their special rules as they would be overruled by the rulebook.

And yes, as I said, they have a special rule for movement IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE, as they do not have a special rule for assaults-- other than treating diff. terrain as dangerous-- then they are treated as infantry. You quoting the very rule that means they don't have a 12" move.

AS it says, it varies from situation to situation in the game. In the shooting phase you apply their shooting rules-- you check to see if the unit has any special rules ( which in this case they do) and if they don't then treat them as infantry.

QED.




Incidentally, yeah, sorry about the blind stupidity crack, t'was late and I was cranky.

Spot on Red. In order to over-rule a general BRB rule , you need a specific rule.
The bikes movement in an assault has no specific over-rule (unlike Beasts and Cavalry which does)
Therefore we must treat them as any other infantry unit.
Just a normal 6" charge.

P1: The Movement phase and Assault phase are distinct, separate phases
P2: During the Assault phase, a unit moves using the rules of the Movement phase
C1: A unit will move in the assault phase following all rules for movement except those that are specific to 'during the Movement phase'
P3: All units move as infantry except when specifically stated otherwise in the unit types section

follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don’t say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry.

P4: Bikes may move up to 12" during the Movement phase (capital M, game term: Movement phase)
C2: Bikes will move at the speed of infantry during the Assault phase (6")

Updated P3 with relevant justification from rules.

The DE FAQ is the answer.

G

Let me attempt a summary.

A. "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules of the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models." (pg 34)

There is a qualifying statement following A that lists some rules of the Movement phase. If we assume that this list is not exhaustive (and it is an assumption), we can conclude

B. Models move the same distance in the assault phase as in the movement phase.

We also have

C. "Infantry can move up to six inches in the Movement phase." (pg 11)

From B and C we can conclude

D. Infantry move six inches in the Assault phase.

Additionally we have

E. Bikes (and other non-infantry units) "follow the rules for the appropriate unit tpe, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the rules for basic infantry." (pg 52)
F. "Bikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase." (pg 53)
G. No explicit statement about a bike's assault distance is made.

Argument 1. E, F and G tell us that we must use the rule for infantry to determine the assault distance for bikes. A, and hence, B, but not D, is the rule for infantry. From B, E, F and G we conclude that bikes assault 12 inches.

Argument 2. E, F and G tell us that we must use the rule for infantry to determine the assault distance for bikes. D, not A (or B) is the rule for infantry. From D, E, F and G we conclude that bikes assault 6 inches.

You can put forth various reasons why A(B) or D should be considered the "rule for infantry," but there is no clear answer presented in the rules. Personally, I think that the "most units" comment on page 33, the movement phase qualifier on page 53 (point F), the Eldar jetbike entry on 53, the DE FAQ (as pointed out by GBF), and the sheer unlikelihood of bikes being given a 12 inch assault in such a roundabout and ambiguous manner all suggest strongly that Argument 2 is the correct interpretation. It's not a deductive proof, but it certainly is a reasonable inductive conclusion.

By Raw it definently seems bikes would move the same distance they do in the movement phase. Follow the rules for the movement phase would be following the rules for how far things move in the movementh phase too. The fact that jumppacks have a diffrence in movement stated to them only seem to enfore this, why would they print it out othervise?

Think its silly RAW but still..

Modquisition:
This thread has had multiple reports due to flaming, trolling, and inappropriate use of an innocent piece of pie. . Upon reviewing, it really can't be edited out.

Closing.