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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/02 23:49:02
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut
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Although it can be interpreted that the bikes get a 12" assault, I think a valid argument can also be made that the bikes can only assault 6".
The argument that they can assault 12" is dependent on the lines in the basic assault rules, not the bike rules. I'm not sure exactly how to structure this logically, but:
Basic move = 6"
Basic assault = Equal to movement, or 6"
Bike movement = replace 6" with 12"
Bike assault rules = not reduced by difficult terrain.
Does anyone see what I'm getting at?
The problem, of course, is that the rules could be interpreted in a different order. i.e.
Basic move = 6"
Bike movement = replace 6" with 12"
Assault move = modified movement distance
As far as I can tell, there's no textual difference between the two arguments.
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"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers
Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 00:48:49
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Using Inks and Washes
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Isn't this the point, as much as I hate to say it, that RAI has to take over. This type of significant rule changed wouldn't have been done via stealth and as it has only cropped up know one would have to argue that precedence would lean towards prior rules.
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2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 01:11:21
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Fixture of Dakka
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I hate how people coME to Dakka to abuse the rules. If bikes could assault 12" the rules would explicitly say so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 01:18:42
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It doesn't fly GBF as everyone for this argument is taking things way out of context to prove an invalid point. Augustus is missing the context of how the RB is laid out and applying things in his own order to justify his argument.
The RB explicity deals with Infantry type units for all the basic sections, (Moving, Shooting, Assaulting) up until the section where Unit Types are clarified starting on pg 51. The RB even makes mention of this fact at the very start pg 1. Things have to be looked at in sequential order, you can never just pull out a part here or there and come up with an explanation. Ignoring context and order always causes this type of problem.
When the statement from page 34, "...following the same rules as in the Movement phase..." comes along it is referencing only the Movement rules starting on page 11. Page 11 cleary states, "Infantry move up to six inches in the Movement phase".
The rules for 'Bikes' starting on page 53 are an addendum to the stated rules for Infantry from the aforementioned sections. Here, the bikes movement is modified from 6" to 12". You do not re-apply the rule from page 34, as the Assault rules for bikes make no new provision to allow such a change.
Edit: You beat me to the punch C99.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/03 01:19:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 01:35:27
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Horrific Howling Banshee
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nevermind, see my post on pg 7
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/06 17:37:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 01:45:02
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Proud Phantom Titan
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shirou wrote:I agree with Augustus that the rules as written support a 12" assault. I believe that this is an unintended consequence of the poor manner in which the sentence on page 33 about a 6" assault was written, but as it is, the 12" assault stands. That said, I expect that 99% or more of tournament judges will rule that bikes get a 6" assault, so in a practical sense, I don't think there's any change.
QFT ... i expect there to be FAQ about this sooner or later.
Theres only one spot that hints at what bikes should move and thats the tag on, that eldar jetbikes can move 6" in the assault phase even when then they don't assault.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 02:33:59
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Fixture of Dakka
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This proves there is indeed a reason for intent. If we have to flip through several sections of the RB just to verify if a bike can assault 12" that is a travesty. RAW is not the end all be all way to interpret the rules as this thread has proved. I know many many of you are huge advocates of RAW but somewhere we should draw a line. If bikes can assault 12" then the rules should explicitly say so. I love bikes. If the rules supported this I would support it wholeheartedly.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 03:15:32
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Lieutenant General
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I love how people can cherry pick the rules to get what they want. From page 34 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:
All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.
Sorry, but they tell you exactly what it means to 'follow the same rules as in the Movement phase', and using the same movement rate as they have in the Movement phase is not one of them.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 04:12:55
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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I cannot believe this fething thread has gone for two pages. There's no way ANYBODY is going to start playing bikes assault 12". Ridiculous!
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 05:33:21
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Fireknife Shas'el
All over the U.S.
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Check the turbobooster special rule. While not stated clearly the implied intent is pretty clear.
From what I've read here, there's a place in the bottom of the ocean with 9,900+ others waiting for some of you.
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Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09
If they are too stupid to live, why make them?
In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!
Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 05:58:46
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Stormin' Stompa
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"Implied intent" is by its very nature NOT clear in any way shape, or form.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 06:19:26
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Fireknife Shas'el
All over the U.S.
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"Controlling their bikes at such speeds takes all their concentration and skill, however, so they canNOT move through difficult terrain, shoot, launch assaults, or execute any other voluntary action in the same turn."
Just by breaking up the movement doesn't mean your not relying on turbo boosters. You move 24" in a turn you've used turbo boosters. It reads as you can move up to 24" and because it's relying on flat out speed you move 24" in a turn you can't take any voluntary action.
There is the implied intent.
There would be no reason for the turbo-Boosters rule if the bikes could 24" combined every turn.
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Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09
If they are too stupid to live, why make them?
In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!
Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 08:06:22
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Deadly Dire Avenger
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If im not mistaken under bikes they are listed as infantry and the bike is a peice of wargear they get. For the listing "bike" they get to MOVE 12". Other than that they use infantry profile which would be a 6" assult. You guys should have remembered that guy that wanted to say that you could put bikes in a landraider cuz they were listed as infantry in their description.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 08:16:25
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide
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Land raider + ork biker + 12" Charge + Assault Ramp =
wtfpwn
That would just be a sweet image, ork bikers popping out of the front of
a Land Raider.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 08:20:25
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ghaz wrote:I love how people can cherry pick the rules to get what they want. From page 34 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:
All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.
Sorry, but they tell you exactly what it means to 'follow the same rules as in the Movement phase', and using the same movement rate as they have in the Movement phase is not one of them.
Ghaz, are you claiming that moving 12 in the movement phase is not a rule for bikes in the movement phase then? Do you realize how ignorant that sounds it's obviously wrong. They have a unique rule for page 53, where it says, "Bikes may move up to 12 inches in the movement phase." Obviously that rule is used in the movement phase, because that's what it literally says. So if you use the same rules you use in the movement phase, the rule from page 53 is also one of them.
Or maybe you could explain to everyone what phase:
"Bikes may move up to 12 inches in the movement phase."
occurs in?
I'm surprised to read you defending something so clearly wrong.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/03 08:21:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 08:24:51
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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focusedfire wrote:...There would be no reason for the turbo-Boosters rule if the bikes could 24" combined every turn.
Really?
How about if they wanted to move move 24 with no charge target in range?
How about if they wanted to turboboost to get invulnerable saves?
What if they wanted to move away from fast assaulter units?
What if they needed to get behind intervening cover that was greater than 12 away but not 24?
What if they needed to reach an objective?
Get to a unit that was routing to be in 6 inches in the enemy turn?
Block a transports exit point...
Think any of these are good reasons?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 08:26:12
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Nurgleboy77 wrote:I cannot believe this fething thread has gone for two pages. There's no way ANYBODY is going to start playing bikes assault 12". Ridiculous!
Really how about the group of people that agreed?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 08:28:18
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tri wrote:shirou wrote:I agree with Augustus that the rules as written support a 12" assault. I believe that this is an unintended consequence of the poor manner in which the sentence on page 33 about a 6" assault was written, but as it is, the 12" assault stands. That said, I expect that 99% or more of tournament judges will rule that bikes get a 6" assault, so in a practical sense, I don't think there's any change.
QFT ... i expect there to be FAQ about this sooner or later.
Theres only one spot that hints at what bikes should move and thats the tag on, that eldar jetbikes can move 6" in the assault phase even when then they don't assault.
Ahh, yes but that was from the LAST PRINTING in V4, where the assaulot distance rule was different, and it was explicitly specified that assault moves were 6 inches unless specified otherwise, which isn't in the book anymore.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 08:31:42
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Rymafyr wrote:
The rules for 'Bikes' starting on page 53 are an addendum to the stated rules for Infantry from the aforementioned sections. Here, the bikes movement is modified from 6" to 12". You do not re-apply the rule from page 34, as the Assault rules for bikes make no new provision to allow such a change.
Ok, if it is true that all infantry move only 6 unless specified otherwise (which isn't in the rules for the record) then why does it explicitly specify jump infantry assault 6 instead of 12? That's completely redundant and meaningless if you are right. Answer that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 09:35:09
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If one were to compare the rules for bikes on page 53 of the 5th edition rulebook to the bike rules on page 53 of the 4th edition rulebook, one should notice that there are no material changes.
The only difference is that in 4th edition, in 4th edition on page 36 the rules explicitly states The assault range is 6" unless otherwise specified.
In 5th edition, that statement is missing and in its place is the less helpful The maximum distance most units can move during an assault is 6".
I think that's the primary source of skeptism about any claims about bikes assaulting 12", and I can't imagine either of the two clubs I play at ruling in favor of the change. They're both much more likely to lump as yet another editorial error.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 09:50:45
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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Solkan: Yes I agree it's probably a mistake. I also think the intent is 6" assault.
But do I know the intent is 6" assault?
No! I can't be sure. Why would they change central wording in the assault rules without checking what other rules the change of wording would affect?
The rulebook is written so that people that haven't ever heard about 4ed should be able to play the game.
If I don't know what RAI is I go with RAW!
RAW bikes can assault 12".
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/01/03 09:53:17
In one game turn an Imperial guardsman can move 6", kill a few guys with his flamer, assault 6", kill two more guys with his bayonet, flee 12", regroup when assaulted, react 6", kill one more guy with his bayonet and then flee another 12".
So in one game turn an Imperial guardsman can move 42" and kill more than 5 people. At the same time a Chimera at top speed on a road can move 18"... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 11:22:18
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Augustus wrote:
Ghaz, are you claiming that moving 12 in the movement phase is not a rule for bikes in the movement phase then? Do you realize how ignorant that sounds it's obviously wrong. They have a unique rule for page 53, where it says, "Bikes may move up to 12 inches in the movement phase." Obviously that rule is used in the movement phase, because that's what it literally says. So if you use the same rules you use in the movement phase, the rule from page 53 is also one of them.
Or maybe you could explain to everyone what phase:
"Bikes may move up to 12 inches in the movement phase."
occurs in?
I'm surprised to read you defending something so clearly wrong.
You're (purposefully ?) misrepresenting him here.
Bikes have 3 special rules with regards to them in the movement phase : they can move up to 12" rather than the standard 6", they ignore the affects of difficult terrain and treat it as dangerous instead, and they can turbo boost. These rules relate to tehir movement phase only.
The only special rule they have with regards to assaults is again to do with difficult terrain ( and obstacles), it makes no reference to them having any ability to move further than the basic 6" which is the default move for all assaulting models.
Beasts/cavalry specify that they can assault more than 12"
That fact that the included a mention of how far Jump Infantry can assault is irrelevant. What matters is they did NOT include a caveat that lets bikes assault moe than 6" like they did with the beasts/cavalry.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 11:32:09
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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reds8n wrote:That fact that the included a mention of how far Jump Infantry can assault is irrelevant. What matters is they did NOT include a caveat that lets bikes assault moe than 6" like they did with the beasts/cavalry.
RB page 54, BEASTS & CAVALRY section wrote:MOVEMENT
Beasts and cavalry move like infantry.
Ring a bell?
So without their 12" assault rule Beasts/Cavalry would only assault 6" as that's what they move in the movement phase.
Same goes for Jump Infantry. Without their 6" assault rule they would assault 12" as that's what they move in the movement phase.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/03 11:32:58
In one game turn an Imperial guardsman can move 6", kill a few guys with his flamer, assault 6", kill two more guys with his bayonet, flee 12", regroup when assaulted, react 6", kill one more guy with his bayonet and then flee another 12".
So in one game turn an Imperial guardsman can move 42" and kill more than 5 people. At the same time a Chimera at top speed on a road can move 18"... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 11:49:27
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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You're right, and then you're wrong.
You're right that without the special 12" assult rule beasts/cavalry would only assault 6" in the assault phase.
For jump infantry they would move 12 ( as they do) and then assault 6 still as they have no clause that says they operate specially in the assault phase.
See the little box on page 52 " different unit types" : " ..follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if these rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry".
The bikes have no caveats in the assault phase other than the aforementioned difficult/dangerous terrain one. Therefore they follow the basic rules for infantry which means they assault 6".
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 11:50:41
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Dakka Veteran
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I hate to point this out, but this is another rules Easter egg hunt gone array.
I have been seeing this for years, with every new edition. I guess I am foolish to think 5th ed would be immune to it, even though this is the least adjusted edition (IMO).
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DA 3rd Co. w/duelwing 6000+ pts
Mostly tanks 2000+ pts
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4000+ pts (Daemonhunters)
Kabal of the Hydra 5000+ pts
Skullrippa'z Freebootaz 6000+ pts
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and not finished until I own some of every army
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 13:33:54
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Proud Phantom Titan
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No its GW forgetting to rule check ... I don't think they would slip in a change as drastic as this with out at least an example ... RAW they get 12" assault move, I'm sure at some point GW will FAQ it to 6".
that said who knows maybe GW will FAQ in favour of 12" ... "no we didn't make a mistake it how we wanted you to play"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 14:07:10
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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[DCM]
.
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Tri wrote:
that said who knows maybe GW will FAQ in favour of 12" ... "no we didn't make a mistake it how we wanted you to play"
That would require GW to actually write a FAQ AND 'remember' to rule on something that is, quite honestly, NOT that confusing?
In other words, NOT asked frequently?
OK, sure...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/03 14:35:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 14:47:56
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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Augustus wrote:Nurgleboy77 wrote:I cannot believe this fething thread has gone for two pages. There's no way ANYBODY is going to start playing bikes assault 12". Ridiculous!
Really how about the group of people that agreed?
I would say that none of the people areeing to the concept would apply it in practice. I'd be willing to bet even you who put this ridiculous thing forward don't play it like that.
I think the last sentence i nthe box on pg. 52 shuts this debate down fairly well. The only thing the 12" assault crowd has to go on is the fact that the 5th rules say "most units assault 6" where the 4th rules said "all units assault 6" unless otherwise specified" . This discrepency is easily chaulked up to different writers and assumtion.
Odd that we haven't seen the Yak in here. Maybe it's too stupid to justify with a ruling?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/01/03 14:56:47
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 14:57:11
Subject: Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Dakka Veteran
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Ok after reading the rules I'd have to say that the assault move is 6".
1. No where does it say that during the assault phase that you get to move the distance you moved in the movement phase. You just simply move.
2. Yes they put 6 inches in the Jump Pack section but they didn't put anything in the Bike Section. (This however doesn't mean you get to assault 12 inches.) Just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can. Furthermore when you go down to the Jetbike entry it says they move like bikes with some exceptions. The Eldar bikes can move in the assault phase even if they do not assault. What is this movement? It's 6 inches. So why would an Eldar bike not move the same distance as other bikes in the game or even other jetbikes? Because the movement for bikes/jetbikes in the assault phase is 6".
This is the type of Rules Lawyering that makes the game suck.
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1850 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1850+ 1000 and counting |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/01/03 15:23:05
Subject: Re:Bikes charge 12 or 6?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Webbe wrote:Solkan: Yes I agree it's probably a mistake. I also think the intent is 6" assault.
But do I know the intent is 6" assault?
No! I can't be sure. Why would they change central wording in the assault rules without checking what other rules the change of wording would affect?
The rulebook is written so that people that haven't ever heard about 4ed should be able to play the game.
If I don't know what RAI is I go with RAW!
RAW bikes can assault 12".
What a load of crap. [Moderator edited for content.] Please remember Dakka rule no.1.
G
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/04 20:39:29
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