Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How far is the assault move for a bike? Is it 12 or 6 inches?

The rules for bikes are found on page 53 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook. If there is not a different distance given for their assault move, then they follow the normal rules and only assault 6".

That was my initial interpretation as well.

However on inspection of the assault rules moves I found out something else.

The assault move rules do not specify assault moves are 6 inches. What they say is a unit moves as it does in the movement phase. For bikes this is 12 inches. There are explicit exceptions for jump troops but not for bikes.

This fact calls it into question.

Perhaps they move 12?

What you're referencing are specifications about how movement can be made in relation and proximity to enemy and friendly units. Under, "Declare Assaults" on page 33 it says, "The maximum distance most units can move during an assault is 6"." So for me, unless a unit is specifically said to assault further, like Beasts and Cavalry, then they only move 6" in the assault phase.

Edited for spelling etc.

im gunna hbave to go with ghaz and rymafyr on this one...
if it was something special for bikes, the would have put it in the rulebook under their entry

Ok, heres another question for you..what if they are ork bikes with the "painted red" upgrade? Can they assault 7"?

Indeed, that makes sense, and considering the historical precedent, that they use to charge move 6 inches in 4th edition, it would make sense that is still true.

However, the quote from page 33, also implies that some units do move more than 6, only that most do not. The question becomes, which ones move over 6 and why. I am beginning to think bikes are one of those units.

The "Moving assaulting units" rules do not specify move models 6 inches. On Page 34 P2 it says,
"make their assault rules following the same rules as in the movement phase"

The only way to find out what units can move over 6 in the assault phase is to see the special rules in the unit types section. There are really only 3 unit types to be concerned with, jump infantry, limited at assaulting 6, cavalry, specified as assaulting 12, and bikes, which have no stipulation for distance at all.

The only way to determine the distance bikes move is the assault rule which says

"make their assault rules following the same rules as in the movement phase"

For bikes that is 12.

burb1996 wrote:Ok, heres another question for you..what if they are ork bikes with the "painted red" upgrade? Can they assault 7"?

According to page 93 in the Ork Codex, "Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch."

The answer to your question, then, is "no."

RabbiTucker wrote:The answer to your question, then, is "no."

Red paint is an Ork vehicle upgrade and Ork bikes do not take it, irrelevant.

krusty wrote:im gunna hbave to go with ghaz and rymafyr on this one...
if it was something special for bikes, the would have put it in the rulebook under their entry

They did, it says they move 12.

Augustus wrote:Indeed, that makes sense, and considering the historical precedent, that they use to charge move 6 inches in 4th edition, it would make sense that is still true.

However, the quote from page 33, also implies that some units do move more than 6, only that most do not. The question becomes, which ones move over 6 and why. I am beginning to think bikes are one of those units.

The "Moving assaulting units" rules do not specify move models 6 inches. On Page 34 P2 it says,
"make their assault rules following the same rules as in the movement phase"

The only way to find out what units can move over 6 in the assault phase is to see the special rules in the unit types section. There are really only 3 unit types to be concerned with, jump infantry, limited at assaulting 6, cavalry, specified as assaulting 12, and bikes, which have no stipulation for distance at all.

The only way to determine the distance bikes move is the assault rule which says

"make their assault rules following the same rules as in the movement phase"

No, you have it backwards, In fact pg 33 says most units move 6" not "only most do not". Also, the rule for assaults is what you use for *every* unit unless that unit (either in a codex or from the unit description found in the BGB) says otherwise like in the rules for cavalry (which have a 12" assault as described in the BGB).

What you do, is apply the rule (6" as given by pg. 33) and *then* factor in any exceptions (cavalry). The part about following rules for movement is not what you think it is.

The rules for movement are found on pages 11-14. Such rules in include but are not limited to coherency, maintaining distance from enemies, not moving through gaps smaller than your base, etc...

The quote :

make their assault rules following the same rules as in the movement phase

only tells you that you must follow the rules given in the movement section of the BGB (i.e. coherency, distance to enemies, moving through difficult/dangerous terrain, etc...). Not a blanket statement that says whatever move distance you make is also your assault distance. This is reading way to much into what the writer is emphasizing.

padixon wrote:This is reading way to much into what the writer is emphasizing.

No its a literal interpretation.

How far do bikes move in the assault phase?

Page 33 "Maximum distance most units can move is 6" inconclusive

Page 34 "move following the same rules as the movement phase"

Page 53 "Bikes move 12 inches in the movement phase"

These are direct quotes. Not reading between the lines at all.

EDIT: format edit

I agree with Augustus, the rules are quite clear on the subject. Bikes move 12" in the movement phase, the assault rules state that assault moves are made as per normal movement for that unit. The normal movement for bikes is 12 inches, thus bikes assault 12 inches.

In the case of Cavalry and Jump infantry they move and assault at different rates, thereby needing the clarifications in the main rulebook. Bikes and normal infantry move and assault at 12" and 6" in both phases respectively, thus no clarification is needed.

Edit:Context clarifications

Augustus wrote:

padixon wrote:This is reading way to much into what the writer is emphasizing.

No its a literal interpretation.

How far do bikes move in the assault phase?

Page 33 "Maximum distance most units can move is 6" inconclusive

Page 34 "move following the same rules as the movement phase"

Page 53 "Bikes move 12 inches in the movement phase"

These are direct quotes. Not reading between the lines at all.

EDIT: format edit

I see your logic, but this is called 'jumping to conclusions'.

first, page 33 *does* tell you that your assault distance is 6". The writer put the word 'most' in there because he was being honest as Cavalry obviously have a larger assault distance. This is not inconclusive it is conclusive.

First rule in reading rules is 1) Follow the basic rules first: In this case it is a unit moves 6"
Second rule in reading rules is 2) Apply any exceptions as given in a unit entry: There is no exceptions in the bike movement for assaults *except* they ignore difficult terrain tests and make dangerous terrain tests instead.

Again, following movement rules is *not* the same as making the same move in the move as you would in the assault.

Movement rules breakdown

1) Infantry move 6"
2) Models in the way
3) All models move at the same rate
4) Random and compulsory movement
5) Turning and facing
6) moving and Close Combat
7) Unit Coherency
8) Moving through Terrain

These are the movement rules you must follow with *exceptions* given in the rules for assaults. I.E. moving closer than 1" to an enemy.

No where does it say that if you move 12" you can assault 12". In fact the *only* distance listed in the movement phase is 6", and gives no mention to bikes or other units that move faster.

Augustus wrote:No its a literal interpretation.

No, not a literal interpretation. For it to be a literal interpretation, it would have to say, "...Bikes assault 12"...".

Padixon has clarified the rest perfectly already.

padixon wrote:

first, page 33 *does* tell you that your assault distance is 6". The writer put the word 'most' in there because he was being honest as Cavalry obviously have a larger assault distance. This is not inconclusive it is conclusive.

You're wrong.

Pg33 "The maximume distance most units can move during an assault is 6"

This line is NOT definitive, it is a clarifier, it says most units do move 6" except for those that don't. For your case it would have to say units always move 6" except for the declared exceptions.

Pg34 "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the movement phase, with the exception that they may move within 1" of enemy models"

Bikes move 12" in the movement phase, where in the assault rules does it specifically say that bikes don't get to move normally in the assault phase? It only says that Bikes move per the movement rules when charging, the movement rules say 12 inches.

padixon wrote:

First rule in reading rules is 1) Follow the basic rules first: In this case it is a unit moves 6"
Second rule in reading rules is 2) Apply any exceptions as given in a unit entry: There is no exceptions in the bike movement for assaults *except* they ignore difficult terrain tests and make dangerous terrain tests instead.

Again, following movement rules is *not* the same as making the same move in the move as you would in the assault.

Your saying exactly what i'm saying except you are following a rule that doesn't exist. Bikes are clearly stated to move 12" in the movement phase, and they assault per the movement phase rules, with the exception of ignoring Diff terrain. The line in the assault rules about 6" is for clarification that most units move 6 inches. How is following the rules in the assault phase different from what I am saying? The movement rules say 6" for infantry and 12 for bikes.

padixon wrote:

Movement rules breakdown

1) Infantry move 6"
2) Models in the way
3) All models move at the same rate
4) Random and compulsory movement
5) Turning and facing
6) moving and Close Combat
7) Unit Coherency
8) Moving through Terrain

These are the movement rules you must follow with *exceptions* given in the rules for assaults. I.E. moving closer than 1" to an enemy.

No where does it say that if you move 12" you can assault 12". In fact the *only* distance listed in the movement phase is 6", and gives no mention to bikes or other units that move faster.

Correct, except in the Bike rules where is specifically says bikes move 12 inches. You apply those rules to the assault move, hence the Jump pack models special rules for assaulting, otherwise they would assault 12" since they move 12" in the movement phase, but because they are specifically precluded from assaulting 12" by the jump pack special rules they move 6" like infantry. By your logic there would be no need for that rule, since they already would be limited to 6" by the line at the beginning of making assault moves.

Augustus put down the crack pipe.

G

However, one could argue that, as it specifically notes that jump infantry only move 6", unless otherwise stated, a unit moves as far as its move value.

This comes down to yet another RAW vs. RAI argument. I can see the points Augustus is trying to make, and I understand (and sympathise with) the counter-argument.

As far as I can tell, your personal interpretation should depend wholly on how much you enjoy getting kicked in the shins and enduring the nomenclature of 'That F'ing Guy'.

Interesting question.

Going by the wording and arguments, I would say they charge 12".

I hope that Dakka does not endorse this as it obviouly goes against the intent of the rules.

G

I tried fellas, sorry.

Dudes, if you bring this up in anything official or heck to anyone, just know I tried to tell you otherwise and protect you from the embarrassment that is soon to follow, when you get the lol face.

Good catch Augustus.

I can't find anything that support that normal bikes should not be able to move 12" in the assault phase as that's what they do in the movement phase.

BTW Green Blow Fly. I don't think it's that obvious that it's against the intent of the rules. Just because it was so in 4ed doesn't mean it's the same way now. They have reworded the section describing how far you can assault.

i agree with agustus they charge 12.

though there's no way I'm going to play that way, i run a wazdakka biker horde and if they could charge 12 then i could be in assault turn 1. there's is just something wrong with that

Webbe wrote:Good catch Augustus.

I can't find anything that support that normal bikes should not be able to move 12" in the assault phase as that's what they do in the movement phase.

BTW Green Blow Fly. I don't think it's that obvious that it's against the intent of the rules. Just because it was so in 4ed doesn't mean it's the same way now. They have reworded the section describing how far you can assault.

Thanks for the support guys!

This honestly is one where I don't like being right. I think this rule will ad a lot to some units that don't need it namely the Ork biker army of internet fame/infamy. I think it might ad a little bit to some other units as well that wont hurt to much, like marine bikes and particularly Eldar bikes and the seer council.

I was originally of the opinion that bikes would assault only 6 inches. Having built, played and loved Eldar in the last edition for years, I asumed that this was the case in 5th. Furthermore I am always skeptical when a rules change seems to break a precedent from before. That said, after having thoroughly reviewed, I have come to the conclusion that bikes charge 12, fully recognizing this is a departure from the previous edition of the rules, and most likely a departure from how most folks play.

It's pretty literal in the book. IMHO.

youbedead wrote:i agree with agustus they charge 12.

though there's no way I'm going to play that way, i run a wazdakka biker horde and if they could charge 12 then i could be in assault turn 1. there's is just something wrong with that

Maybe, if armies are >24 inches apart at the set up it would still take 2 turns, and essentially be no different than turbo boosting anyway... But yea, look out for Orks.

padixon wrote:I see your logic, but this is called 'jumping to conclusions'.

first, page 33 *does* tell you that your assault distance is 6". The writer put the word 'most' in there because he was being honest as Cavalry obviously have a larger assault distance. This is not inconclusive it is conclusive.
...
No where does it say that if you move 12" you can assault 12". In fact the *only* distance listed in the movement phase is 6", and gives no mention to bikes or other units that move faster.

I think it is pretty direct, but how about this angle to try and persuade you:

What if a case revolved around the line in the jump infantry rules. They move 12" but are specified to move 6" in the assault phase. If units were always limited to moving 6" in the assault phase wouldn't this rule be redundant and not exist? There fore since bikes have no written exception to the assault distance, they move at 12". Right?

Augustus wrote:

padixon wrote:I see your logic, but this is called 'jumping to conclusions'.

first, page 33 *does* tell you that your assault distance is 6". The writer put the word 'most' in there because he was being honest as Cavalry obviously have a larger assault distance. This is not inconclusive it is conclusive.
...
No where does it say that if you move 12" you can assault 12". In fact the *only* distance listed in the movement phase is 6", and gives no mention to bikes or other units that move faster.

I think it is pretty direct, but how about this angle to try and persuade you:

What if a case revolved around the line in the jump infantry rules. They move 12" but are specified to move 6" in the assault phase. If units were always limited to moving 6" in the assault phase wouldn't this rule be redundant and not exist? There fore since bikes have no written exception to the assault distance, they move at 12". Right?

lol, yes, you do have me there a bit. And I don't have an answer to that good counter. However, each entry in the units section breaks down all 3 phases for each unit type. And describes in detail how they function in each phase. And the only one listed for bikes, is they are not slowed down by difficult terrain and treat it as dangerous instead. But going by your logic (that you caught me on), then why would they put this in there since they already are not slowed down by difficult terrain and treat it as dangerous instead as pointed out in their movement rules, kinda redundant by the logic you have presented. IMHO, the only answer I have for this, is the writer (for Jump jets) was implying the 'infantry' part of the rule, to pertain that they don't take dangerous terrain rolls as if they were moving, but difficult terrain tests because they are now on foot. But, to specify 6" as the rule does, I do not have an answer.

But seriously, I have listened to all the pod casts offered on the GW website. They list a ton of new and different things that 5th ed changed or was new. And if this is true, this would be a 'BIG' one indeed, but it was not even close to being brought up. In fact Alesio (sp?) said when he wrote the rulebook, he wrote the whole thing from the POV of infantry, with exceptions made for vehicles and when noted in the unit type sections. I really firmly believe this could have been written better to avoid this obvious confusion, as the number of believers in this interpretation is showing.

Augustus wrote:

padixon wrote:I see your logic, but this is called 'jumping to conclusions'.

first, page 33 *does* tell you that your assault distance is 6". The writer put the word 'most' in there because he was being honest as Cavalry obviously have a larger assault distance. This is not inconclusive it is conclusive.
...
No where does it say that if you move 12" you can assault 12". In fact the *only* distance listed in the movement phase is 6", and gives no mention to bikes or other units that move faster.

I think it is pretty direct, but how about this angle to try and persuade you:

What if a case revolved around the line in the jump infantry rules. They move 12" but are specified to move 6" in the assault phase. If units were always limited to moving 6" in the assault phase wouldn't this rule be redundant and not exist? There fore since bikes have no written exception to the assault distance, they move at 12". Right?

Nice find.

Reason to have the assault distance in every other entry,but not for bikes?

Would it not be easier to add the 6" or 12" as given distance than assume from page 34?
I think someone forgot the mention of the assault distance when writing about terrain.

It will never fly.

G