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Canonness Rory wrote:
Does a unit with eternal warriors ignore sweeping advances, or shokk attack guns?

Altho i'm not familiar with the exact diresword wording ( i assume it's not the eldar WL diresword) but after reading i have to agree with the above argument. EW are not immune to sweeping advances and therefore not auto immune too other things that causes them to be 'removed from play' or 'slain outright'.

To the OP: as an Eldar player i use my Avatar or Harelquins. With rending i have never seen them not take out any Uber Character on the charge. If they are charged its a different matter tho....

you have to go back and read through this thread in it's entirety. The NFW is a force weapon and follows the rules for a force weapon found on pg 50 of the RB. The dire sword is a red herring in this discussion and shifts the focus. The dire sword is not described as killing the enemy unit outright. The term kills outright is a descriptor, not a rule and the NFW being a force weapon as described in the table in the DH codex causes instant death.

G

Force weapons are fethed due to thier write up

"Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim may have. The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapons power against any one opponant that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that players turn ........... (skipped a bit since it is about usinf psychic powers) If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers INSTANT DEATH ......... (goes on with more crap once again)"

So basic force weps are gone in terms of EW.
i take it NFW are worded differently?

Green Blow Fly wrote:The NFW is a force weapon and follows the rules for a force weapon found on pg 50 of the RB.

No, they do not. They follow the rules for "Force Weapon" on pg 17 of the DH book, as do the Witch Hunters FWs, that follow the rules on pg 21.

JD21290 wrote:
So basic force weps are gone in terms of EW.
i take it NFW are worded differently?

Way to show up late for the debate and not read the thread!

Really, it has nothing to do with it being a "Nemesis Force Weapon, just that the DH (and WH!) codex describe how their FWs work (differently!).

Actually nurgleboy, i was following off from GBF's post about P50 of the book.

but as it goes, allways take the wording from the codex over the book, so if they have seperate rules in the dex then they follow those.
not a DH player, so i wouldnt know, but as far as it goes then they would be following the rules in the dex.

and im sorry, i didnt think you could really how up late on a thread, maybe you could follow what im saying aswell.
like maybe when i said earlier that slain / killed outright is not instant death.

Yo JD the term 'slain outright' is not a rule such as instant death. It is just a description of how a force weapon works if the wielder scores a wound and passes their Ld test. People are trying to use TWO words as a loophole.

G

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:The NFW is a force weapon and follows the rules for a force weapon found on pg 50 of the RB.

No, they do not. They follow the rules for "Force Weapon" on pg 17 of the DH book, as do the Witch Hunters FWs, that follow the rules on pg 21.

JD21290 wrote:
So basic force weps are gone in terms of EW.
i take it NFW are worded differently?

Way to show up late for the debate and not read the thread!

Really, it has nothing to do with it being a "Nemesis Force Weapon, just that the DH (and WH!) codex describe how their FWs work (differently!).

Umm... nurgling, I'm fairly certain the rules in the back of the 5e rulebook > DH. Call it a hunch, but I think that latest version is what they go by at GW.

Yo JD the term 'slain outright' is not a rule such as instant death. It is just a description of how a force weapon works if the wielder scores a wound and passes their Ld test. People are trying to use TWO words as a loophole.

No they are not GBF, they are simply stating that ID and slain outright are not the same atall.
which i do agree they are not the same.
going by wording (RAW) the model is slain outright, so thats it, gone.

It's not RAW at all.

G

How so GBF?
it says slain outright, thats how its written, then thats how its played.


says nothing about instant death.

Slain outright is just a bit of fluff to describe how the NFW works when the wielder scores a wound and passes their Ld test. It is defined as a FW in the table, refer to pg 50 of the RB junior.

G

GBF, you cant just say that "its a bit of fluff"
its stating how it works, its not fluff atall.
Ignoring rules will get you nowhere.
you either follow them or dont play.

JD stop, just stop.

G

GBF, what about my post??

No, they do not. They follow the rules for "Force Weapon" on pg 17 of the DH book, as do the Witch Hunters FWs, that follow the rules on pg 21.

What do those rules say?

G

JD stop, just stop.

Why should i stop? simply because you have no base for your argument other than saying its "fluff"?

Green Blow Fly wrote:What do those rules say?

G

Both codices say:

...the opponent is slain outright no matter how many wounds it has...

You arse just repeating yourself. It's like you want the last word which is just plain childish.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:You arse ...

Freudian slip?

Wow, that was either resorting to name calling or just plain old bad spelling.
then maybe i need to repeat it a few more times until you get the point.

...the opponent is slain outright no matter how many wounds it has...

that is the rule, not fluff.
RAW states they die, so they die.


Why would you seem to think this is instant death? it makes no reference to it at any point.

Because FWs went from "slain outright" to "Instant Death" with the advent of 5th edition. The Inq codices are the last remaining holdout of books that don't refer to the BRB for the rules for FWs. So they use their own rules.

GBF is just too skilled at "LALALALALA I can't HEAR YOU!!!" to understand.

"Allways take the rule from the codex"
like BA only gaining a 4+ from storm shields rather than the newer 3+.

The last bit i agree 100% with

GBF,

First you are asking Nurgleboy to quote the FW rules on page 17/21 (DH/WH), when he does, you just put it down by saying "You're just repeating yourself.

What is this discussion actually about? The working of NFW, or you wanting to be told you're right without being so.

Once again:

#1 NFW are a special kind of ForceWeapon -> Check (stated in DH codex)
#2 ForceWeapons inflict Instant Death -> Check (5th edition RB)
#3 Models with the EW USR (or a wording stating they do) ignore this effect and suffer 1 wound as normal.
#4 Codex trumps RB, in case of different rulings for same wargear/weapons/rules etc -> Check
#5 In contrary to point 2, the DH/WH Codex do NOT use the term "Instant Death" anywhere in their wording for Forceweapons (whether because the term didn't exist by then, or because it's meant not to be there doesn't matter -> RAW)

The only conclusion i'm getting from this exact use of RAW:

Models with the EW USR (or "Immune to Instant Death" CAN be slain by DH/WH Forceweapons/Nemesis Forceweapons.

I really cannot find anything in both the Codici and Rulebook to make a solid argument against this point. It might not be the most logical way, but RAW this is completely correct.

On the other hand, I must agree with you that GW has been really stupid concerning updates of rulings, not only for WH/DH. Some disadvantages we encounter when using RAW on the DH Codex:

- "Daemon" Rule doesn;t exist any longer
- Dedicated Transports cannot be used by other units
- 4+ CC Stormshields, against a single opponent
- Heavy 3 Assault cannons
- Less transport capacity in Landraiders
- More expensive Rhino/Chimera
- Near useless psychic powers

These are things DH players have to cope with when playing our armies, which makes DH a quiet difficult army to play with.

Grt. Pim

I'll read the DH codex tonight. Still sounds like a bit of fluff to me like when people said in 4th that Space Marines always auto regroup after falling back.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I'll read the DH codex tonight.
G

This explains a lot....

Look I have read it many times including this weekend. I just want to go over the most pertinent items. So far it is a bunch of GK players that insist they are right.

G

im a BA / ork / nid player, not a GK player.
as for being part of fluff - its actually with the rules of the weapon, not as part of the fluff (like alot of wepaons now have)

<---not a GK player, just plays by the rules

Insist the rules are right more like, as opposed to your total lack of citation.

He is a chimer in type. It adds no weight. Neither do statements such as...

"These are things DH players have to cope with when playing our armies, which makes DH a quiet difficult army to play with."

G

No GBF, he was simply pointing out how daemon hunters use all codex only gear.
they do not use the mainstream rules for things, if its in thier dex then they must use it as its written.