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Thanks... Just checking to make sure. Guess what I really need to do is take a look at the DH codex. I really don't know a thing about it.

The DH codex has a table which list the effect the NFW has depending upon the rank of the GK wielding it. Under the Grand Master entry, it gives a strength bonus and counts as both a power weapon and a force weapon.

The DH codex entry for Force weapons states:"...If the test is passed then the opponent is 'slain outright', no matter how many wounds it has".

The entry makes no mention of instant death and that, i suspect, is where the confusion arises because people start to argue about semantics.

It could well be a mistake by GW (look up the waveserpents front armour value in the rulebook for a good example of this) but as they have never, to my knowledge, officially corrected 'slain outright' to 'instant death' i'm happy to roll with it. GK's do need a bit of a hand after all...

you don't decide on the outcome of a rule because an army needs it. That is the weak sauce. Teh DH codex was written years earlier than the 5th edition rules. Most likely the designer used the phrase out of hand.

G

Oh, I forgot about the chart for the NFW. Wow, I feel like an idiot now.

All it is is a Power-Force weapon, really, with a fancy name.. As the codex states in the weapon's table that it is indeed a Force weapon, just with better stats as GBF has mentioned...

Apologies.

Teh DH codex was written years earlier than the 5th edition rules. Most likely the designer used the phrase out of hand.

Yes bu the DH book was written after the 3rd edition rulebook, which also includes the rules for Instant Death. If it were intended to be ID, they would have called it that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ifyouseekamy wrote:Oh, I forgot about the chart for the NFW. Wow, I feel like an idiot now.

All it is is a Power-Force weapon, really, with a fancy name.. As the codex states in the weapon's table that it is indeed a Force weapon, just with better stats as GBF has mentioned...

Apologies.

Yes, but the rules for DH Force Weapons are in their codex, so you follow them, per codex>rulebook.

Well I did not face Abadadabooey...

But I did face Kharn.

What beats an Ubercharacter? 8 WG terminators with a rune priest with storm caller.

Sorry Nurgleboy I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I run a GKGM and I would not play that he can outright slay an EW. It's just not right.

G

I don't run anything that has EW anyway, so there should be no issues if we find ourselves across a table from each other come July. Looking forward to a great WAAAAAGH!

KEWL !!!

: )

G

Abaddon's still not an Eternal Warrior though. Just a super bad ass with all the Marks of Chaos affecting him and also immune to insta-death. But not an Eternal Warrior.

Now, still in terms of Chaos Marines, the Daemon Prince is an EW and he's not as fearsome as Abaddon, albeit to say still a bad ass to be reckoned. To take a DP out shouldn't be too hard, as he can't join any unit, thus have no ablative wounds.

As for killing Abaddon, I've never faced him, but I might run him in the future for my CSM army. But anyway, I'd assume the best way to take him out would be concentrated heavy firepower, such as AP2 tanks or guns. Higher strength helps, of course. Force him to take his 4+ invuln save. Even if he is with Termies or a squad of Berzerkers, those wounds will demenish quickly when faced with a S10 AP2 large blast coming from a Medusa siege cannon or Demolisher, and possibly even more so with 5 Plasmacannon shots from an Executioner with Plasma spons. Now, this is just from the IG weaponry, but I think you see what I'm saying.

Do any servitors other than Vanilla Marine or IG ones Mindlock? No....codex rules.

Do Dark Angel/DH vehicles use "glancing" smoke or 4+ cover smoke? "glancing"....codex rules (rulebook even specifically states this)

Do DH/WH Stormtroopers have the new AP3 lasguns? No....codex rules.

Why is a Dark Angel Apothacary so much different from a Vanilla Marine Apothacary? Codex rules.

Why do only Vanilla Marine LandRaiders have an increased payload capacity for the same points as everyone else? Codex rules.

Why do DH, Blood Angel, Space Wolf and Dark Angel Storm shields provide less protection than Vanilla Marine ones? Codex rules.

How come Assault Cannons on GKLRC's do not rend and only shoot 3 times? Codex rules.

....AND WHY OH WHY DO NEMESIS FORCE WEAPONS "SLAY THINGS OUTRIGHT" RATHER THAN CAUSE "INSTANT DEATH"?

...you guessed it.....CODEX RULES

GBF...your interpretation creates more problems than it solves. If we play your way...we have to address all these other issues.

THIS is why its played the way we're talking about. You think "slaying outright" means "instant death"...strict adherance to RAW means that you are incorrect. This is why, when considering a tournament atmosphere, you would be in the wrong in suggesting what you are suggesting.

Repeatadly trying to hammer YOUR OPINION home doesnt make you right. "RAW" and "Codex Rules" makes the interpretation that you're futily fighting against correct.

Come up with some official ruling to bring some credibility to your argument. Saying the "rulebook states that forceweapons cause instant death" doesnt cut it. The rulebook also states that smoke launchers grant a 4+ cover save...unless the codex in question states otherwise. DH force weapons do not cause "instant death"...they "slay outright". Just because YOU think that means the same thing doesnt make it so, RAW says that you're wrong in assuming such.

<<munches popcorn whilst watching battle royale between WC members>>

@Shane: Nail. On. Head.

Friendly games: Agree beforehand/roll a dice.

Club games: Club rules/roll a dice.

Tournament: Check with faq/organiser.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:<<munches popcorn whilst watching battle royale between WC members>>

Not a battle..its a debate....and not even a heated one at that.

It's like an argument between me and spidey almost lol, only slightly more logical (my friend's just straight up stubborn)

I've made all my points so need to repeat them again.



G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I've made all my points so no need to repeat them again.



G

Definatly correct, you need newer and better points anyway!

GBF, Instant Death is completely different from 'slain outright', which isn't really a rule in itself. It's an effect.

Force weapons cause instant death.

Nemesis Force weapons slay outright.

Nemesis force weapons do not follow the standard rules for force weapons. They are their own weapon with their own rules.

Cheese Elemental wrote:GBF, Instant Death is completely different from 'slain outright', which isn't really a rule in itself. It's an effect.

Force weapons cause instant death.

Nemesis Force weapons slay outright.

Nemesis force weapons do not follow the standard rules for force weapons. They are their own weapon with their own rules.

This is incorrect. Nemesis Force Weapons follow the rules for Force Weapons, found in the Daemonhunters codex. Regular Inqusitor wielded Force Weapons work exactly the same. it's not the fact that they are Nemesis Force Weapons, just that the DH codex outlines how they function.

Witch Hunters FWs do the same thing.

A NFW is a force weapon and the table in the codex explicitly states this. Slays outright is exactly the same as instant death when applied to a force weapon in 5th edition. Obviously the wielded of the force weapon does not suddenly have S10 versus a T5 model. The rules on page 50 simply say to treat the attack as instant death. Killed outright is exactly the same in this sense... It's obvious S6 is not double T5. Do you think the designer had the rule for Eternal Warrior in mind when he wrote the DH codex? You are trying to loophole a rule... A classic rules lawyer tactic.

Here I'd a question for you? Does the NFW kill outright a Hive Tyrant? Here's another... Does a D weapon kill outright a Hive Tyrant? Think about it before you spout off an answer and say codex > rulebook. You haven't brought anything new to the discussion and have been repeating yourself in every post. I on the other hand have worked through the various rules to present my case clearly and am not using hsyteria to convince people that I'm right. To be honest a passion for your army that you play just shows you are biased. Like I said I use the GKGM from time to time and I would never claim he can instant death/outright kill an EW.

On another note the EW rule simply states that the model is immune to instant death.

Green Blow Fly wrote:A NFW is a force weapon and the table in the codex explicitly states this.

It also goes on to tell us what a Force Weapon does, it does not refer to the Rulebook, it has its own rules in the codex.

Here I'd a question for you? Does the NFW kill outright a Hive Tyrant?

Yes, since Synapse gives them immunity to ID.

Here's another... Does a D weapon kill outright a Hive Tyrant?

No idea, I don't play Apocabuymorecrapfromuslypse.

Think about it before you spout off an answer and say codex > rulebook. You haven't brought anything new to the discussion and have been repeating yourself in every post. I on the other hand have worked through the various rules to present my case clearly and am not using hsyteria to convince people that I'm right. To be honest a passion for your army that you play just shows you are biased. Like I said I use the GKGM from time to time and I would never claim he can instant death/outright kill an EW.

I'm sure this is directed elswhere...?

On another note the EW rule simply states that the model is immune to instant death.

Which is funny they didn't just put that as his rule in the first place. I'll never understand the writer of the CSM codex. Very akin to the fluff line about Havocs using Rhinos a lot to redeploy...WTF?

Green Blow Fly wrote:A NFW is a force weapon and the table in the codex explicitly states this.

So what? DH forceweapons operate according to 'Codex rules' not what the rulebook states

Slays outright is exactly the same as instant death when applied to a force weapon in 5th edition.

I dunno how you come to this conclusion since is in direct opposition to RAW.

Obviously the wielded of the force weapon does not suddenly have S10 versus a T5 model. The rules on page 50 simply say to treat the attack as instant death. Killed outright is exactly the same in this sense... It's obvious S6 is not double T5. Do you think the designer had the rule for Eternal Warrior in mind when he wrote the DH codex? You are trying to loophole a rule... A classic rules lawyer tactic.

STR is meaningless in this arguement so this portion of your arguement is a complete waste of time.

Here I'd a question for you? Does the NFW kill outright a Hive Tyrant?

yes, as a matter of fact it does.

Here's another... Does a D weapon kill outright a Hive Tyrant?

dunno, dont play apocabuymorecrapfromuslypse.

Think about it before you spout off an answer and say codex > rulebook. You haven't brought anything new to the discussion and have been repeating yourself in every post. I on the other hand have worked through the various rules to present my case clearly and am not using hsyteria to convince people that I'm right. To be honest a passion for your army that you play just shows you are biased. Like I said I use the GKGM from time to time and I would never claim he can instant death/outright kill an EW.

and you would be wrong according to RAW, Codex Rules, RULEBOOK ITSELF (when you take into account what it says about Smoke on vehicles), and even the INAT FAQ.

On another note the EW rule simply states that the model is immune to instant death.

...and?

did you notice that the whole of dakka, including apparently the INAT FAQ guys, seems to disagree with you. Guess you're smarter than all of us....

I'm with Deadshane1 on this. Even though GK use force weapons the fact of the matter is they have their own rules (i.e different wording) for their force weapons in the codex. And as we all know codex trumps rulebook.

Slain outright is not the same as instant death, otherwise it would be called instant death, not slain outright.

It's the same thing.

Are you just sore because your Daemons aren't immune to the primary weapon of Daemonhunters?

Green Blow Fly wrote: To be honest a passion for your army that you play just shows you are biased.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Are you just sore because your Daemons aren't immune to the primary weapon of Daemonhunters?

Pot/Kettle

I think the whole point is that if they were the same then there would have been some sort of errata or FAQ to sort it out. Since the wording is different we have to assume (by RAW) that the intention of the ability is also different.

Yeah GW has done such an excellent job addressing all of the open ended issues with their rules in general I feel you must have missed something. I noticed you have cleverly avoided the glaring points that close this argument:

The table in the codex
The designer wrote the book years ahead of the EW rule

RAW doesn't apply in the way you are trying to use it. You just have constructed a conniving argument that's all,

And no the NFW doesn't kill a Hive Tyrant outright. I told you to read the rules.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Yeah GW has done such an excellent job addressing all of the open ended issues with their rules in general I feel you must have missed something. I noticed you have cleverly avoided the glaring points that close this argument:

Hmm... OK let's see....

The table in the codex

As stated before: the table says they are FWs, then it has the rules for FWs stated in the codex as well.

The designer wrote the book years ahead of the EW rule

And I said a while back, the Eldar codex (1st appearance of EW) has a "killed outright" weapon IN it as well, same wording, in the same book. Plus, if it were ID it would have said it was ID, since ID has been around since 3rd edition.

RAW doesn't apply in the way you are trying to use it. You just have constructed a conniving argument that's all,

Er... the RAW is working against you here, GBF. I totally understand it probably goes against the RAI (which is what you are arguing) but, unless you don't own a DH codex, I don't see how you can say/prove this.

And no the NFW doesn't kill a Hive Tyrant outright. I told you to read the rules.

Er... still don't know where you're getting this. Synapse grants immunity to ID, NFW (and all Inquisitorial FWs FTM) don't cause ID.

demolisher cannon to the face always works =)