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I'm with Shane on this one. Whilst it almost certainly isn't intentional that NFW's can get round the eternal warrior rule, i think it's a happy co-incidence. NFW's are meant to be the most powerful weapons out there and i would not be at all surprised if a new GK/DH codex had wording that let them keep this effect.

A happy coincidence does not make for a good call on a rule. You are saying that a weapon that inflicts instant death works on a model with eternal warrior while the rule for eternal warrior states exactly the opposite. A rose I'd a rose by any name. Just because the entry for the NFW states that is slays the model outright does not mean it is not instant death, it is most certainly instant death.

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's interpretation of the rules, not the codex. I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that the 3rd edition rule for the NFW was intended to instant death a 5th edition model with Eternal Warrior. In fact this was never ruled on by GW and came about by way of the INAT FAQ. At the time there was a lot of love going around for Grey Knights as an underdog appealing army.

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NFW's don't cause instant death, they slay outright. THAT is the wording in the codex. If you want to subscribe to the "yea but they meant this...." crowd, you create many more problems than you will solve. The ONLY way to interpret NFW rules is that they can kill off eternal warriors when you consider GW's new stance of not updating wargear within older codeii.

So you're saying that NFW's should be UPDATED to cause the "instant death" rule? Thats fine...we need to also upgrade our assault cannon to fire 4x rending, and our storm sheilds need to also be a 3+ invuln, of course this would also mean that Daemonhunter servitors need to be suceptable to "mindlock" and then there are some other rules to change.....

On second thought, nevermind...we'll keep our "outright slayage" NFW's, and if you play a Grey Knight in a GW or Adepticon Tournement...guess what rules you'll have to play by....

....Yes, Scarbrand just got "Slain Outright".

Kill outright Is inflicting instant death... To say it's not is incorrect. Eternal Warriors are immune to instant death. Kill outright equals instant death in every sense of the term, it's just another name for the same thing.


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I never play Skarbrand by the way. If someone was all funny about I'd just shot the grand master with the grinder's tongue insta death him. Sorted.

Green Blow Fly wrote:A happy coincidence does not make for a good call on a rule. You are saying that a weapon that inflicts instant death works on a model with eternal warrior while the rule for eternal warrior states exactly the opposite. A rose I'd a rose by any name. Just because the entry for the NFW states that is slays the model outright does not mean it is not instant death, it is most certainly instant death.

Dunno how many times this needs to be said, but.....

Ignoring "codex rules" for a minute...since "codex rules" esentially make basic Inquisitor weilded Force Weapons even kill off Eternal Warriors....Ignoring that....

"NEMESIS force weapons" are not "Force Weapons" any more than "Flamers" are "HEAVY flamers" or "Bolters" are "Heavy Bolters"(they're not) Therefore "Nemesis Force Weapons are not subject to any of the rules concerning mundane "Force Weapons".

"Nemesis Force weapons" SLAY MODELS OUTRIGHT. They do not cause instant death at all, in any way shape or form.


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Green Blow Fly wrote:Kill outright Is inflicting instant death... To say it's not is incorrect. Eternal Warriors are immune to instant death. Kill outright equals instant death in every sense of the term, it's just another name for the same thing.

Inflicting "instant death" is inflicting a specific rule in the rulebook. NFW's do not inflict this special rule. The same way that Grey Knight Assault cannons do not inflict "rending" rules when they hit.

...You're cherry picking in reverse.

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I never play Skarbrand by the way. If someone was all funny about I'd just shot the grand master with the grinder's tongue insta death him. Sorted.

Too bad he still uses the "retinue" rules when with his terminator bodyguard. You cannot pick him out....even in close combat. Sorry.

Thank you all for the replies!

I've decided to take my Space Wolves and use my WG Termies with a Rune Priest to counter characters. Since you can outfit them anyway you want, a Storm Called squad with lightning claws and stormshields and thunderhammers should do well against Abaddon and other Uber Characters, as they go first when charged and do well in HTH.

I will miss the unit when the new Codex comes out.

I will post here how the tournament went and if I faced Abadabadabooey.

Slain Outright is the same thing as 6,6 on a SAG. Anyone who dares say my infernal ichor of instant doom doesn't remove from play your model can go *grabs self*.

I forgot about Old Zogwort. A wonderful character-killer. Oh, what's that, Abbadon has turned into a squig? Oh dear, now where's you hitting power?

zogwort lol suddenly maccrage is weaker than a grot =P

da mind worm ...JUST STAND THERE AND THINK OF ALL THE BAD THINGS YOU HAVE DONE ....lol no wounds etc so off you go my son

So the consensus is that if a model is killed immediately regardless of how many wounds it has that is not instant death? I can see if Abby scattered off the table during a deep strike and you rolled a 1 or 2 for the mishap. Turning him into a spawn is different, he is basically transmorgified. To me the term kills outright is the same as instant death, you are applying semantics to say it doesn't. A NFW is a S6 FW, the table in the codex specifically tells us so.

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But its rules state "slain outright" as in straight up slaughtered, not just instant-death, but greater than that. Like, butchered alive.

Slain outright is on a grander scale than mere insta-death attacks. If GW wanted it to cause insta-death, they would have said so in its rulings. Regular Force Weapons are ruled as such, while as Nemesis Force Weapons are ruled as Slain Outright.

Again it's all just semantics as far as I am concerned. Nowhere in the rules does it state slain outright is butchered alive... You are whimsically adding on your own opinion which has nothing whatsoever to do with the rules. In fact i think it makes my line of reasoning stronger. I understand it's quite useful for those that play GK and want to interpret it this way but obviously they are very biased and have a stake in their claim.

This would be better addressed over in YMDC instead of hijacking this thread. Someone should query this there IMO.

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Look at it this way GBF, a normal force weapon uses the psychic power to enhance the powerweapon effect of the weapon, causing massive damage when it goes through the target. Eternal warriors with their massive resistance to damage are not killed by this. Nemesis force weapons literally cause massive explosive effects when they hit. Just because you are an Eternal warrior does mean you will survive being exploded from the inside out by a massive blast of psychic force.


As for the OP, one thing to remember is persistence. If you can kill it over the course of two or three turns, with minimal loses, go ahead. A lot of people don't shoot things if they don't think they can kill/cripple it in one turn, which is a big mistake with really tough units like this.

More fanboy fluff does not equate to rules.

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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:Does Gift of Chaos affect Eternal Warriors? I can't remember, but I've had my SM HQ voiped by the power several times. Just make sure you have a spawn model laying about.

Gift of Chaos doesn't insta-kill or inflict wounds. In KP games it's better to not put a spawn into play.

Also, just remember that big characters take big points. No big characters = more little guys = more special weapons that kill big guys fairly easily. I personally believe the guy with more models and more melta guns always has the better chance at winning.

Absolutely true... Being a tyranid player it's all about multiples of decent special weapons that can either focus on a character or kill other things. I'd much rather have 2 elite carnifexes with stranglers and talons rather than a godfex that costs twice as much. Or two small cost dakka tyrants instead of one giant flying one that doesn't have a decent invulnerable save anyways.

GBF, nemesis force weapons were around the same time the rulebook had rules for specifically weapons that cause 'instant death'. Its not like a case of a codex being out before there was a rulebook statement to clarify the rules. NFW are simply different and hold their own ruling. SAG is a perfect analogy, it doesnt cause 'instant death' as this specific phrase is nowhere in the gun description. By your idea you could argue 'remove from play' is the same as 'instant death' as a model is technically losing all its wounds at once. It simply isnt so, as the specific wording is all that counts as Shane has been putting it down. RAW isnt RAI no matter which way you slice it...

Gah. This is beginning to sound like a MTG Q&A session!

@General Hobbs: There is no one way to deal with abby/uber characters. Best thing to do is look at their rules, try to find some weakness your army can exploit, then give it a go!

With SW/SM's you don't really have cheap troops to tarpit him and i'm guessing you don't have a mech force that can just dance around him. Thus, Anything that can negate his 2+ and FNP will be a winner!

GBF I would ask you to look at the Eldar codex, under the rules for the Diresword. It has almost the same wording (if different mechanics) as the NFW and it is in the same book that Eternal Warrior was first introduced. It is not a case of "that rule wasn't around yet" its a case of "its a different rule, that essentially does the same thing".

Eternal Warriors only take one wound from a force weapon.

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Is that specified anywhere? I'm curious as I've never faced a force weapon...

Read the rule for Eternal Warrior in the rulebook.

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How is Abbadon getting FNP as people have stated he has??

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it just says eternal warriors are immune to instant death. It doesn't say anything about only taking 1 wound.

I will check when I get home.

Ok, I have a .pdf version of the rule book (copied from mine) here at work and it's just a single sentence... Seems something like that should have more than a sentence when it covers such an important topic.

Assuming by Eternal Warrior you mean "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" (in terms of Abaddon) all it says is he is immune to the Instant Death rule, it says nothing about the Slain Outright ruling. The only special abilities granted to Abaddon are being Fearless, an IC, his special weapons, and having the MoCA. I just checked.

Edit: The only CSM Eternal Warrior is the Daemon Prince. An DP's aren't so big compared to Abaddon, but still.

GFC please read the rules for force weapons on page 50 of the rulebook.

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Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Ok, I have a .pdf version of the rule book (copied from mine) here at work and it's just a single sentence... Seems something like that should have more than a sentence when it covers such an important topic.

So indeed it says the force weapon inflicts "instant death". And that those who are immune to instant death are not affected. Question solved. Thank you!

Ifyouseek, what is this "slain outright" rule... Is that something you made up or is there an actual rule that is wholly different than instant death? I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything here.

There is no slain outright rule. The NFW is S6 force weapon as shown in the table in the DH codex.

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