Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Codex trumps rulebook so yes the old rules are still in effect. I don't think it really matters whether or not it is a shooting attack. I asked the question to make sure about whether or not the blast template would scatter. I'm not trying to get over on anyone.

Codices only trump rulebook in certain circumstances. That statement is not a Draconian rule for every circumstance.

If you can make a codex work within the current rules you must do so, only if a codex explicitely tells you to ignore a rule should you do so.

Also Codex trumps rulebook is different altogether from Codex makes you use last edition rules. That is not true. Ghazghulls Waaagh doesn't allow you to move 6 inches base anymore because of how it interacts with the new rules.

Legacy codices may interact with new rules in different ways to how they used to, but that doesnt mean you should ignore the new rules. it means you should make the legacy codices fit with the new rules.

Codex does not trump Main rules.

Specific trumps general.

Generally, the main rules are not as specific, thus the confusion.

To get back the OP's original question, no, the template used for Holocaust does not scatter because the rules for Holocaust detail how the template is placed, which does not include any reference to scattering the template. If you need a 5th Ed example of template placement that does not scatter, refer to flamer templates or the Vortex of Doom power in the Space marine Codex, which places the template center on the Librarian without scatter if the psychic test is failed. Both examples reflect specific rules for placing templates in the same manner is detailed under Holocaust.

Rerally, the only different between Holocaust and a flamer is which phase it's used in, which template is used, and which models may be hit by after the template is placed.

SJ

I need a cat avatar.

jeffersonian000 wrote:To get back the OP's original question, no, the template used for Holocaust does not scatter because the rules for Holocaust detail how the template is placed, which does not include any reference to scattering the template. If you need a 5th Ed example of template placement that does not scatter, refer to flamer templates or the Vortex of Doom power in the Space marine Codex, which places the template center on the Librarian without scatter if the psychic test is failed. Both examples reflect specific rules for placing templates in the same manner is detailed under Holocaust.

Rerally, the only different between Holocaust and a flamer is which phase it's used in, which template is used, and which models may be hit by after the template is placed.

SJ

Sounds familiar. Pretty much exactly what I already posted. I don't think he is listening, he just wants to believe what he wants.

After reading the rules I don't see how this is even an arguement. It says it is in the assault phase. It says to place the template anywhere in contact with the psyker. Hell it strikes at initiate 1. What makes anyone think this is a scattering shooting attack is beyond me.

JGrand wrote:After reading the rules I don't see how this is even an arguement. It says it is in the assault phase. It says to place the template anywhere in contact with the psyker. Hell it strikes at initiate 1. What makes anyone think this is a scattering shooting attack is beyond me.

GW faq'ed it to count as a shooting attack ...

If you play that it's a shooting attack would you get a cover save from the enemy unit you are engaged with in close combat?

Tri wrote:

JGrand wrote:After reading the rules I don't see how this is even an arguement. It says it is in the assault phase. It says to place the template anywhere in contact with the psyker. Hell it strikes at initiate 1. What makes anyone think this is a scattering shooting attack is beyond me.

GW faq'ed it to count as a shooting attack ...

You mean Psychic Shooting attack.

All that means is that if you intend to use Holocaust, you may not fire your stormbolter in the same turn, may not have run, and if you are able to cast two psychic powers a turn, the casting model may only 'Holocaust' once.

Ordinarily it would mean that you cannot use it if the model is locked in combat but I beleive holocaust specifically states that it IS used in CC or during the assault phase...trumping the rulebook. (I dont have my codex at work so cannot quote it)

The rules for Psychic Shooting attacks do not state that you use all other rules from the shooting section. Since the Holocaust power specifically states how to use it, and it is so different from any other shooting attack....

...No deviation.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Tri wrote:

JGrand wrote:After reading the rules I don't see how this is even an arguement. It says it is in the assault phase. It says to place the template anywhere in contact with the psyker. Hell it strikes at initiate 1. What makes anyone think this is a scattering shooting attack is beyond me.

GW faq'ed it to count as a shooting attack ...

You mean Psychic Shooting attack.

All that means is that if you intend to use Holocaust, you may not fire your stormbolter in the same turn, may not have run, and if you are able to cast two psychic powers a turn, the casting model may only 'Holocaust' once.

Ordinarily it would mean that you cannot use it if the model is locked in combat but I beleive holocaust specifically states that it IS used in CC or during the assault phase...trumping the rulebook. (I dont have my codex at work so cannot quote it)

The rules for Psychic Shooting attacks do not state that you use all other rules from the shooting section. Since the Holocaust power specifically states how to use it, and it is so different from any other shooting attack....

...No deviation.

I personally ignore GW on this as its not a shooting attack in any form if you can use 2 Psychic powers you can use this and one in the shooting phase (or shoot a storm-bolter) ... oh and Holocause never says it can be used in CC only that it strike at I1 ... if you follow GW to the letter then it can only be shot if you are not in CC but can effect a unit in CC where it will strike at I1

Some other lines of thought regarding Holocaust.
Could it be used during the assault phase even if you were not engaged in close combat?
If engaged in combat could the template be placed in a manner where it didn't fall over the unit it was in combat with, and maybe on a unit that you weren't even in combat with?

This thread is filled with:

[X] Phail
[X] Facepalm
[X] Troll
[X] Unlogic
[ ] Win
[ ] Potential
[X] Way Too Long For Subject Matter

Raland wrote:Some other lines of thought regarding Holocaust.
Could it be used during the assault phase even if you were not engaged in close combat?
If engaged in combat could the template be placed in a manner where it didn't fall over the unit it was in combat with, and maybe on a unit that you weren't even in combat with?

Well this is a massive grey area ... i would play it this way

It can be used while not in CC.
If it effects a different CC then that of Caster then then the wounds caused are added to that CC's results not the Casters CC result .




Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:This thread is filled with:

[X] Phail
[X] Facepalm
[X] Troll
[X] Unlogic
[ ] Win
[ ] Potential
[X] Way Too Long For Subject Matter

[X] Off topic

So does the enemy unit get a cover save? One of my opponents claims it does, which is very helpful for his daemonic troops?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So does the enemy unit get a cover save? One of my opponents claims it does, which is very helpful for his daemonic troops?

Cover saves may never be taken in the assault phase.

Sounds good to me!

Gwar! is right as always.

Mod:

This thread is generating complaints under Rule no.1, which are fully justified from what I have read.

PMs have been sent to people.

I am locking the thread.

Please contact another moderator if you would like it re-opened.