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I don't know, sure sounds like shooting to me. You know what they say - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be a duck.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I don't know, sure sounds like shooting to me. You know what they say - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be a duck.

What part of "It doesn't use the shooting rules" don't you understand?

note the blast rule is indicated in a little chunk of the weapons profile ether as "blast" or "large blast". Unless you've got a profile with that you don't use the blast rule. simple as simple can be.

Gwar! wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I don't know, sure sounds like shooting to me. You know what they say - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be a duck.

What part of "It doesn't use the shooting rules" don't you understand?

You never answered my question - is this a psychic assault?

holocaust is used in the assault phase. on a successfully test place the large template touching the casting model any friend or foe under the template are hit on a 4+ at str5 armour saves as normal. All casualty are added to combat resolutions

Afrikan Blonde wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I don't know, sure sounds like shooting to me. You know what they say - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be a duck.

What part of "It doesn't use the shooting rules" don't you understand?

You never answered my question - is this a psychic assault?

I did answer it. Try reading. It is a Psychic Power. Not all Psychic Powers done in the shooting phase are Psychic shooting attacks. They must explicitly be stated to be Psychic shooting attacks. Holocaust is not stated to be such, mainly because it doesn't even happen in the shooting phase or use the Blast Rules.

Seriously mate, if you are gonna post in a Rules Debate forum, RTFM before posting m'kay?

I disagree with you. There are other instances of shooting attacks that are psychic and are not necessarily called out as a shooting attack. For instance lash was later referred to by GW as a shooting attack. It is also obvious that hit on 4+ for models partially covered was in reference to the old rules for blast templates when this codex was released. Are you aware of older versions of the rules?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I disagree with you. There are other instances of shooting attacks that are psychic and are not necessarily called out as a shooting attack. For instance lash was later referred to by GW as a shooting attack. It is also obvious that hit on 4+ for models partially covered was in reference to the old rules for blast templates when this codex was released. Are you aware of older versions of the rules?

Yeah, because it is done instead of firing a weapon. Oh, it is also done in the shooting Phase (there is a clue for you).

Now, can you explain why you think an Attack that does not use the shooting rules and does not happen in the shooting phase count as shooting please?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:It is also obvious that hit on 4+ for models partially covered was in reference to the old rules for blast templates when this codex was released. Are you aware of older versions of the rules?

Guess what bozo, we are not playing the old editions. That 4+ rule is now a special rule in that codex. But fine, if you wanna play with the old edition rules, I wanna let my Space Wolves All Deep Strike for free, fire their bolters and then assault, like I could in the old edition! That ok with you?

So you are resorting to name calling now? I see you are still avoiding my question.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So you are resorting to name calling now? I see you are still avoiding my question.

What question? I have answered every singe question you have put forth in this thread you insufferable troll.

And you have yet to answer MY Question:
Now, can you explain why you think an Attack that does not use the shooting rules and does not happen in the shooting phase count as shooting please?

So you are saying that a psychic power that counted as a shooting attack in the 3rd edition no longer is a shooting attack because GW changed the rules for how blast templates work? Are you familiar with the 3rd edition rules? It's important because that was the framework under which the DH codex was written. You can probably find a copy on eBay.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So you are saying that a psychic power that counted as a shooting attack in the 3rd edition no longer is a shooting attack because GW changed the rules for how blast templates work? Are you familiar with the 3rd edition rules? It's important because that was the framework under which the DH codex was written. You can probably find a copy on eBay.

Well, firstly, it was not a shooting attack back in 3rd edition, so where you have that Idea I have no idea.

Secondly, I have Played every edition since 2nd, and own every single rulebook and codex from 3rd onwards (missing a Few 2nd ed ones). I even have a Copy of Rogue Trader.

Thridly: WE NO PLAY 3RD EDITION ANY MORE! You want to use 3rd edition rules? Fine, I will use my 3rd edition Space Wolf Codex, Deep Strike everything for free, then Fire my bolters, then assault because "that was the framework under which the SW codex was written. "

Gwar you have to understand how 3rd edition worked to properly apply this codex using 5th edition. What you have said leads me to believe you have failed to grasp this important point.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Gwar you have to understand how 3rd edition worked to properly apply this codex using 5th edition. What you have said leads me to believe you have failed to grasp this important point.

You still have yet to answer my question. Would you be OK with me doing that with my Space Wolves? And if not, why are you a massive hypocrite? Also, How does 3rd ed have anything to do with how 5th ed is played?

You, good sir, are nothing more than a Troll, Charlatan, Hypocrite and some other mean words I am not permitted to say.

You obviously resort to calling names when losing an argument.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You obviously resort to calling names when losing an argument.

Still waiting for an answer.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Gwar you have to understand how 3rd edition worked to properly apply this codex using 5th edition. What you have said leads me to believe you have failed to grasp this important point.

No AB, you're wrong on that. How it worked in 3rd has no bearing on how it works in 5th. Rules change, and how items/abilites/etc work or don't work change along with them. And I've been playing since 2nd and do have all the books since then.

psychic power that counted as a shooting attack come in 2 forms
Standard these have a recognised weapons profile Range X" S:Y AP:Z. The only difference between this and a standard gun is a psychic is need to fire it.

Abstract these can range wildly in form and target spesific model groups or even areas. The only thing these things have in conmen is that they happen in shooting phase and effect the enemy.

Note all shooting attacks happen in the shooting phase.

Another interesting note: 5th ed rules on psychic shooting attacks disallow the use of such powers while locked in hth. Yet IIRC, Holocaust can be used while locked in hth. Ergo, it is not a psychic shooting attack.

Page 50:
PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACKS
Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat,

Refer to what I said earlier... holocaust works like blast templates back in 3rd and 4th editions; that is the partially covered models were hit on the roll of a 4+.

don_mondo wrote:Another interesting note: 5th ed rules on psychic shooting attacks disallow the use of such powers while locked in hth. Yet IIRC, Holocaust can be used while locked in hth. Ergo, it is not a psychic shooting attack.

Sorry but codex trumps rulebook.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Refer to what I said earlier... holocaust works like blast templates back in 3rd and 4th editions; that is the partially covered models were hit on the roll of a 4+.

don_mondo wrote:Another interesting note: 5th ed rules on psychic shooting attacks disallow the use of such powers while locked in hth. Yet IIRC, Holocaust can be used while locked in hth. Ergo, it is not a psychic shooting attack.

Sorry but codex trumps rulebook.

very true ... but you keep ignoring that shooting only can happen in the shooting phase. It is technical a psychic close combat attack.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Sorry but codex trumps rulebook.

Yeah, so where in the codex does it say it is a shooting attack?

Hmmm, hate to bring it up, but while ABs argument is totally wrong, Holocaust may indeed be a shooting power (but not for the reasons he states). Refer to the DH FAQ:

Q. Which Daemonhunter psychic powers follow the shooting rules?
A. Scourging and Holocaust follow the shooting rules.

So a case of right answer for all the wrong reasons............?

don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, hate to bring it up, but while ABs argument is totally wrong, Holocaust may indeed be a shooting power (but not for the reasons he states). Refer to the DH FAQ:

Q. Which Daemonhunter psychic powers follow the shooting rules?
A. Scourging and Holocaust follow the shooting rules.

So a case of right answer for all the wrong reasons............?

FAQ is House rules. RaW you follow what the codex says. Also, just because you follow the shooting rules, does not mean it is a shooting attack, the same way as the Scout Move is movement but not a movement phase.

don_mondo wrote:Hmmm, hate to bring it up, but while ABs argument is totally wrong, Holocaust may indeed be a shooting power (but not for the reasons he states). Refer to the DH FAQ:

Q. Which Daemonhunter psychic powers follow the shooting rules?
A. Scourging and Holocaust follow the shooting rules.

So a case of right answer for all the wrong reasons............?

lord just once i'd like it if GW was consistent ... if holocaust follows the shooting rules then it can't be fired because it never says it can be used in CC .... so the only way to use this power is not to be in cc but within range ....

You are not instructed that it uses the blast special rule. You cannot declare that it does because it's instruction bears resemblance to a component of another rule.

Previous editions are completely irrelevant.

FAQs are not house rules. All large events in the US use them.

Previous editions show intent... yes I know that is a dirty word here but some of us understand why it is needed at times.

Tri wrote:lord just once i'd like it if GW was consistent ... if holocaust follows the shooting rules then it can't be fired because it never says it can be used in CC .... so the only way to use this power is not to be in cc but within range ....

Sure you can, first line of the rule is "Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the Daemonhunters' Assault phase, at an effective initiative of 1".

Assuming you do use shooting rules, any that would actually matter are overridden by the specific rules the codex gives. Use in assault phase, place Ordnance template such and such a way to determine hits, etc.

There is no profile that states it is a Blast weapon, therefore it isn't.

Previous editions show previous RAW.

And are entirely irrelvent to current rules discussions unless one is simply trying to confuse things.

Specific rules override general rules.
(codex > BGB is false)

The main rules specify what a psychic shooting attack is.

Holocause does not fit the specifications.

Who cares about intent when determining how a currently printed mechanic works? Intent is for how you choose to play something, not for how something works as printed.