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Afrikan Blonde wrote:If you don't understand I don't think it will help if I try to explain.

No, please, explain. I wanna hear your mad explanation.

You said that GW does not by RAW allow an action to occur in a non action phase. This proves you are wrong.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:You said that GW does not by RAW allow an action to occur in a non action phase. This proves you are wrong.

wth?

You can move in the shooting phase so why can you not shoot in the assault phase? It is the RAW by the DH codex since codex trumps rulebook.

. . .

Wow.

Just wow.

You did not read the book or the posts, did you?

Did you?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Did you?

You are an idiot.

Also the rules explicitly let you run instead of shooting. The rules do not let you shoot in the Assault phase.

Ok so the reason why you can move in the shooting phase is because there is a rule in the rulebook called run.

I dont think anyone would ever give you crap if you used holocaust and did not scatter the template (although I know that is irrelevant to the rules discussion)

If you take the FAQ for gospel truth, you can't use the power. It is just another of the useless psychic power that the daemonhunters posess.

If the FAQ is just house rules, then disregard them, read the codex, and follow the rules in the codex, as they say in the codex. Wait here I will break them down for you: 1)"Holocaust is a psychic power that can be used in the Daemonhunter's assault phase, at an effective initative of 1." Ok so this means that it can only be used during your assault, not your enemies, at initiative 1. 2)" If the psychic test is passed, place the ordanance template anywhere in contact with the psycher (or brother captain in the case of a unit of terminators)." This means that you have to pass a psychic test and place the large blast template over the enemy as long as a smidge is touching the base of the psychic model. 3)"All models, friend or foe, under the template suffer a strength 5 hit with armour saves taken as normal. Those partially under the template take a hit on a dice roll of 4+." This means that if you are fully under the template you get a str 5 hit automatically. If you are partially under the template (meaning you are not all the way under the template) you get hit on 4+, but the nice thing is that you still get your armor save. 4) "If a grey knight terminator squad uses this power and suffers a perils of the warp attack, it will affect every member of the squad at the same strength value." This means that if you are terminators using it and you get a perils of the warp, it hurts everyone, sucky day. 5)"Any and all wounds inflicted by this power count towards the combat result." This means that any wounds that happen (friend or foe) go towards seeing who won the combat.

Now I think this is how you should play this psychic power, it is in line with all 5th edition rules and shouldn't cause any problems. I don't know gak about 3rd edition, but in 5th edition this it seems to work.

Thank you.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Thank you.

He wasn't agreeing with you.

so you were saying that you can't use holocaust?

Gwar and I have butt heads much lately, but finally we freakin' agree on something.

DOODZ! Damage caused during the assault phase are not shooting attacks. I don't care how they are resolved, they are not shooting attacks. Those happen during the shooting phase. Just like damage caused during the movement phase are not shooting attacks.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:If you take the FAQ for gospel truth, you can't use the power. It is just another of the useless psychic power that the daemonhunters posess.

1. Go by the FAQ and say it is a shooting attack
2. Try to commit a shooting action in the assault phase by using Holocaust.
3. Action fails because you have a general rules conflict (shooting not being allowed during assault), unless some specific rule overrides the general conflict.
4. See the first line of the Holocaust power that says that it may be used in the Daemonhunters' Assault phase.
5. Action succeeds because it has a specific override to the general conflict.

There, that's out of the way. Next. Does the template scatter?

1. Go by the FAQ and say it is a shooting attack
2. If it follows the shooting rules, and has blast in the type category of its profile, it uses the blast rules.
3. Look for the profile, find that since it doesn't exist, it can't be a blast weapon.
4. Use the special and unique rules for determining hits using Holocaust that you are given, which do not include rolling scatter.

Are we done now?

Dashofpepper wrote:Gwar and I have butt heads much lately, but finally we freakin' agree on something.

DOODZ! Damage caused during the assault phase are not shooting attacks. I don't care how they are resolved, they are not shooting attacks. Those happen during the shooting phase. Just like damage caused during the movement phase are not shooting attacks.

we all know what happened with that FAQ ... some one that doesn't use the DH skimmed through looking for psychic shooting attacks, saw that holocaust used the large blast and put 2 and 2 together and got 8. Thank god its a house rule and it can be ignored ...

so you use the FAQ, you say it is usable because codex trumps rulebook.

Codex trumps rulebook then, don't roll for scatter because it specifically tells you what to do. and it doesn't tell me to roll for scatter, it tells me exactly how to place the template, as well as how each model is wounded.

BTW, when exactly should i roll for scatter with this psychic attack?

Grey Knight Luke wrote:so you use the FAQ, you say it is usable because codex trumps rulebook.

Codex trumps rulebook then, don't roll for scatter because it specifically tells you what to do. and it doesn't tell me to roll for scatter, it tells me exactly how to place the template, as well as how each model is wounded.

BTW, when exactly should i roll for scatter with this psychic attack?

only time you roll for scatter is when you have a weapons profile with blast in it for example

The model my make also has a psychic shooting attack, it use the following profile
Range 48" Str:4 AP:5 Heavy, blast

I agree with you.

Is Nurgle's Rot considered a psychic shooting attack? I don't have my rules with me right now.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Is Nurgle's Rot considered a psychic shooting attack? I don't have my rules with me right now.

That is a shame, because these forums are not a substitute for codexes.

And FYI, it is done in place of a shooting attack, but has it's own special rules to allow it to affect models in a unique way.

Do the rules specifically state that it's unique?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Do the rules specifically state that it's unique?

Yeah it kind of does. It even explicitly allows you to use it in Close Combat, and to affect models in Close combat. That makes it unique.

Sounds like it has something in common with holocaust then.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Sounds like it has something in common with holocaust then.

Nope, because it is done in the shooting phase, and is a shooting attack. Holocaust is not done in the shooting phase and does not use the shooting rules.

I thought you can cast rot in the close combat phase like Boon of Mutation. Like I said I don't have my rules with me.

Afrikan Blonde wrote: I thought you can cast rot in the close combat phase like Boon of Mutation. Like I said I don't have my rules with me.

You can cast rot in the shooting phase even if you are Locked in Close Combat at the time

Live bait is often used while trolling.

THIS THREAD

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I disagree with you. There are other instances of shooting attacks that are psychic and are not necessarily called out as a shooting attack. For instance lash was later referred to by GW as a shooting attack. It is also obvious that hit on 4+ for models partially covered was in reference to the old rules for blast templates when this codex was released. Are you aware of older versions of the rules?

I realize I stopped reading each post on page 2 (of a billion) and am certain this has been covered, but I will do so now.

It is NOT a shooting attack because it has NO shooting profile. Otherwise it would be listed in the 'weapons' section with a full profile. It doesn't say it is a blast weapon, nor anything else like that. It states it uses a template to guage who would be hit. It also never states he rolls to shoot, which is where a deviation would happen.

Please also keep in mind that even IF it was a shooting weapon (with needed profile) it has a specific set of rules, which trumps the shooting rules.

I hope this helps.

Afriken Blonde in regards to you using old codices and rules to "set precidents" i'd like to point out that your arguement can be turned on its head. The simple fact that the rules are no longer in use could be used as evidence that your arguement is wrong, as if GW had wanted the old rules to be any kind of precident, they'd of continued them in 5th edition.

The fact they are gone in modern rules really proves that what you consider a precident is not a precident, but rather GW decided against the rules they once had.

A better precident would be swooping hawk grenade packs, they are used in the movement phase yet still do damage, and they specifically tell you how to scatter as the usual shooting rules do not apply. But of course this precident doesn't really agree with your arguement, so it has been ignored.

It might also help to notice that Holocaust is closer to a flamer than a missile launcher. To determine hits, you place a template down with the edge touching the shooter, rather than firing a projectile that explodes. That's a flamer mechanic.

You don't roll scatter for a flamer template. You don't roll scatter for the customer template weapon that Holocaust is.