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I think my beef is that unpainted armies look naff. I don't know how people have the face to turn up to tournaments with them. They just look rubbish, what's the point in spending £10 or more on special characters and much more on vehicles and the like and not doing anything with them? They just end up grey and silver like the rest of the army, and just about every other army. All of them, just a sea of bland grey and metal. So what chapter are your Space Marines? Oh Blood Angels, cool so umm...which ones are the Death Company?

I like to have a really good layout when I play a game, something you can really visualise, something to be proud of and enjoy for several hours. A load of grey plastic and metal men fighting other plastic and metal men around scenery made up of coffee cups and heaps of magazines doesn't cut it unfortunately.

I don't mind borrowing a friend's army. It's fun to get a new perspective sometimes. And I lent a few units to another dark eldar player, he was playing a pickup game against someone preparing for a tournament and didn't have his full 2k touni army there. Since both our armies are painted totally differently, it wasn't hard to sort out what belonged to who after.

beard102479 wrote:I don't like playing people who haven't taken time to paint their army. Anyone can glue some "Nids" together and show up. Is it wrong that if I am not in a tournament that I refuse to play someone with an unpainted army? 1 or 2 models I can handle but an entire army with not one drop of paint on in? Come on people get your act together and take some pride in the hobby!!! Opinions welcome, please explain why you haven't painted your army or why you agree that it is very annoying to go up against a grey plastic Leman Russ?

There isnt really much to say that i havnt said before.
Just need to know , that yes to you Yourself its a hobby.

But to many others , its a game.

LunaHound wrote:
There isnt really much to say that i havnt said before.
Just need to know , that yes to you Yourself its a hobby
.
But to many others , its a game.

aint it the truth, this is why i can't hold people up to the same standards i hold myself to. because i go all out with my painting and modeling, doesn't mean the next guy has to, but when they start using fantasy movement trays for rhinos.... thats where i draw the line.

The trouble with Luna's position is that a lot of people in the "I don't have to paint!" crowd say that the game/hobby distinction is just another elitist insult against them. And, what do you know, the paint or else crowd does seem to claim that the non-painters are not hobbyists or at least are defective hobbyists.

The closest thing to a compromise is the KK/insaniak position that playing with painted figs is a separate hobby from playing with unpainted ones. But that's just a rationalization geared to deflating these threads.

Manchu wrote:The trouble with Luna's position is that a lot of people in the "I don't have to paint!" crowd say that the game/hobby distinction is just another elitist insult against them. And, what do you know, the paint or else crowd does seem to claim that the non-painters are not hobbyists or at least are defective hobbyists.

The closest thing to a compromise is the KK/insaniak position that playing with painted figs is a separate hobby from playing with unpainted ones. But that's just a rationalization geared to deflating these threads.

there are tournament regulations which must be obeyed when they arise. but as far as pick up games, and casual game nights, i am pretty much on the "i don't have to paint" side, because you really don't have to paint. For my personal armies, oh yes there will be paint, there will be lots of paint. I do not concider myself a better hobbiest because my army is painted and yours isn't, i am a believer in that we are all just there to have fun and play a game.

Yeah, that's my take on it, too.

The models are all that's needed to play. Tournaments are part show part game so painting is expected there. In a normal game why would it matter? Can anyone honestly say they've not once, in ANY miniature game played with unpainted models? How else do people learn their army, but by playing games. Imagine the time investment to buy an army, paint it, then play it and find out you spent all that time on an army that's not your style. You can trade it back in and see about trying a new one sure, but it's easier to sell an unpainted army than a painted one unless you're truly an excellent painter. My bugs spent a year and a half unpainted. I am *counts* 26 models away from it being completed. A person who owns the models deserves to put their purchase to use.

These arguments are silly and this is the third time I've seen this thread. @op, why did you even start this thread? Probably just to gloat about how you're better than "us" nonpainters. Anyone can say yes or no to a game with or without reason. Deal with it and move on. There's no sense in complaining about things you can't control.

if i enter a painting comp do i
have to glue the bits together?
or even take the models off the sprues?

@MOMUS

Manchu wrote:I think painting is very fun. It's awesome to see your stuff go through that transformation. That and I feel like I make progress in skill from model to model. Assembly is kind of a drag for me, however. What a pity that playing with an unassembled army is impossible.

Can I still get up on a soapbox and lecture everybody else about how playing WHFB/40k isn't about the hobby? "I'm no less into it because I refuse to put my little men together! How dare you question my preferences!" Whoops, here come the flames, gotta run!

There is a difference between those guys/gals that are slow painters. They like to play their army, but you will see them with only a few models or squads done every so often. Which is fine. And I have a very good friend who is a superb painter and puts just as much effort into every model as he would into a center piece type model. And he will play with unpainted, often times only some primed, and a few units that are drop dead gorgeous.

Then you have those guys/gals (and you know who I am talking about, there is always one at nearly every flgs, and probably a few of them right now in this thread) that show up every week, every month, and years with the same unpainted models. Then they pick up a new army...and years later still unpainted...then a new army...unpainted, and the horrible cycle keeps repeating.

I prefer to play against a painted army ( I myself have well over 500 models, all painted). I work a full time job, married with 3 children, help my son with his school work, take care of the baby, and I find time every day to do a little bit of painting, and on my off days I do more. The I don't have time to paint is not an excuse. The I am to lazy to paint is one.

However, I really don't mind playing against unpainted armies at all, as long as you ARE working on it. Then it is absolutely fine. As someone else already said, we've all shown up with at least one model not finished.

Painted miniatures really bring the game to life and becomes a much more enjoyable experience. Its like a game with awesome graphics compared to one with next to no graphics. We don't mind playing the game with horrible graphics if its fun...but a game with great graphics can really bring the game to life.

In conclusion: Playing with/against a painted army (even ones not that well done) is still a much more enjoyable experience than one that is just bland...I can agree with the OP in that even I have chosen not to play against a player who ALWAYS has a completely unpainted army, it just depends on who shows up, I will pretty much choose to play against a painted army over the unpainted one if the choice presents itself.

I only want the armies recognisable as a criteria to play, although granted I don't do many pickup games (raiders are a pain to transport, I prefer arranged so I know I'll get a game if I'm hauling the things in).

I have seen one of the store's apoc matches with a lot of chaos marines. Two armies of which were unpainted, and mostly indistinguishable. So, 15 min before the match, one player is quickly dabbing a stroke of red paint on all his CSM, and the other guy a dab of blue paint on his CSM. Not my desired game, but at least doable. Still be better if they'd sprayed them with a coloured primer, it doesn't take long and drastically improves an unpainted army (and lets you see which one is yours).

In fact, I usually play with a fully painted army
and I expect the same from my opponent.

Gornall wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
One of the gamers in my regular game is actually more concerned with this stuff than anything else. It matters more to him that he's got the right iconography and numbering in his squads than it does if they're either painted well, or play well on the tabletop.

That's great for him. He found something that caught his interest and went for it. I think that's the point. 40k has enough different aspects that it can appeal to a variety of different people, each with different ideas of what is "fun". The key is finding the ones that share your ideas of fun so you can have enjoyable experiences and don't have to fight about the "right" way to enjoy "the hobby".

Ok...Except the title of this topic is "No Paint? No Play?", not "Are only people who paint true fans of the game?".

I keep seeing you and others quoting Redbeard and arguing things that are irrelevant.

Warhammer is not a very deep game. It is not hard to play (if you think it is, you need to open up and look at some of the other much more skill based games). This is why, to me, the most intriguing aspect of the hobby is the painting, and then fielding my painted models on a great looking table.

But guess what? The immersion of the entire battle/scenario is thrown right out the window for me when I see Im about to play a gray horde. Everything on the board begins to look worse. This severely hinders my enjoyment of the game.

Redbeard is also 100% correct that there have been a lot of excuses in this topic, excuses trying to be passed off for laziness/poor time management/no care to paint. If you have time to play, you have time to paint. If you have money to spend on models, you have enough to spend on paint. If you dont want to paint, that's fine, that's your right, but I have the right to refuse to play you because you dont have your army painted. It is a choice not to paint. If the reason is due to someone being new or still working on them, that's fine, but dont think that it's somehow more enjoyable for me.

So my point is, while I wont necessarily refuse to play someone with a giant gray blob, if theres 2 identical players to play against - one with a painted army and one without - Im going to pick the painted one everytime. Im sorry to say, but the people who were posting "you are looking down on us as lesser humans, boohoo " need to get a grip on reality and grow some thicker skin. If you dont like the thought of this happening to you (the horror) , there's a simple solution - paint.

Night Lords: Once again... that's your enjoyment of the game. My argument is that just because you define your enjoyment of the hobby that way, doesn't mean that is THE way.

If you want it more on topic: Yes, you have the right to not play people if their army isn't painted. No questions asked. Anyone calls that "elitest" or anything like that does need to grow thicker skin (grip on reality is a bit harsh IMO) and accept by not painting their army, they might miss out on some games.

Gornall wrote:Night Lords: Once again... that's your enjoyment of the game. My argument is that just because you define your enjoyment of the hobby that way, doesn't mean that is THE way.

I have yet to see anyone argue this, which is why Im genuinely confused as to why you keep bringing it up.

Several people have made comments that if you're not painting your army, then you shouldn't bother playing 40k and go find a different game (Clix, Chess, etc). I'm just arguing that because you don't think 40k is a deep enough game to enjoy for the gaming aspects alone doesn't mean that other people can't find it to be a good fit.

You guys have written a butt load, so I'm just going to through in my double singles.

For casual play rejecting a match with someone who hasn't painted their models would be faux pas. It's not uncommon for people to not be ready or in the process of painting their armies. Some armies are just too big! (See: Orks, Imperial Guard). But chronic non-painters are even more faux pas, regardless of their army size. I, personally, do not play units that aren't at least two colors (I have a Leman Russ that sits out 90% of the time and is low on my priority list that is only green and black with a half converted turret, no sponsons or hull). So rejecting them, politely, isn't that bad, but could be considered unsportsmanlike if you're doing nothing else.

At professional levels, however, such as Tournaments or Leagues, I would say it is entirely permissible to deny play for non-painting. A major part of the hobby is the painting and converting, if less than 75% painted, it's just people not caring about the game, which is rather rude.

For large armies, like Orks and Guard, three basic colors are easy to get to. Spray base your primary, paint for their tunics/armor, and some paint on the base or special weapons. That's easy to do even with 100+ guys.

If you don't like painting, pay someone else. If you can't do that.... well you're in the wrong hobby or you're going to have to adjust fire and figure something out....

Skinnattittar wrote:
If you don't like painting, pay someone else. If you can't do that.... well you're in the wrong hobby or you're going to have to adjust fire and figure something out....

This is where i take issue (more than likely the only) in what you are saying. I started playing when I was 13, the first time I ever fielded a UNIT that was fully painted i was 17, the first Army i fielded that was "fully painted" i was 19/20. Why did it take so long? Because I was a kid. I had school, i did my school work, i went to school, i really did not have time to paint. And thats something EVERYONE has to think about when you want to refuse the kid thats been playing for years but doesn't have his army anywhere close to being painted. There are MORE important things in life (like Graduating High School, going to Prom, having your first date) especially for a high schooler, who just likes to PLAY THE GAME. When i was in high school I only wanted the weekend to show up because Fri night was MTG night, Saturday in day was 40k time, Saturday night was my friend night, Sunday was church then D&D (great combo right?!) Where am i painting in that time frame? During the week its all homework/classwork. I really didn't give myself the time or put in the effort until i was in college when i made my own schedule.
While I doubt i'll refuse to play the kid, who is still in school, and has his unpainted army, i am more inclined to not play the 40 year old who has his 2nd ED marines that are still natural silver.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
how is a high school student that wants to PLAY, and spends all his allowence on 40k, doesn't has a job (yet) afford to pay someone to paint his army???

Skinnattittar wrote:A major part of the hobby is the painting and converting, if less than 75% painted, it's just people not caring about the game, which is rather rude.

... If you can't do that.... well you're in the wrong hobby or you're going to have to adjust fire and figure something out....

This is the type of view I talking about. People tend to define how the hobby should be enjoyed through their view of what they find fun. I'm just saying that people should understand that everyone comes to 40k for different reasons. Some people choose not to paint, because it is not value added for them. They just prefer the gaming aspect, social interaction, etc. That's what makes it fun for them and that's their choice.

The whole painting/not-painting issue doesn't become an "elitist" issue if someone simply says "I prefer to play against painted armies." That is a perfectly reasonable, justified response. It only becomes an issue in my my mind when people are rude about it, or start saying stuff like "You shouldn't even be in this hobby."

I played and painted during High School, I still have a lot of models I painted back then (though most got stripped and repainted since). I understand some people don't like that part, which is okay, you don't HAVE to paint them, or do anything. But to me, the game isn't just about playing, it's also about painting. To me it is similar to liking hot rod cars but not liking to work on them. To me that's a lazy, or at least half-assed, hobbyist.

You can own a hot rod that isn't worked on often and still be in the hobby of it, but you can't just own one that sits undone in your back yard rusting and call your self a hot-rodder. I would still talk to you if this was your case, but it's sort of a joke.

Tournaments and Leagues should be a professional atmosphere, and part of that is having a painted army. It's okay to not be at that level, you just have to live with the fact that you're not at that level, which again, if that's your situation, it's okay, you don't have to be a professional player to play casually. For me, I go a step closer, I wouldn't play in a tournament unless I had painted and WYSIWYG, with only minor caveats (like having smoke launchers on the model or some other small option, or a small powerfist on models, like I use for augmetics). But painting is part of the hobby.

I'm not calling anyone a piece of gak for not painting. But I'm not going to consider your army professional quality.

I hate unpainted armies AND it makes me better than all of you.

Do we have to go through this again?

EDIT : Oh, hold on, this is page 5 already...I guess so....

@Skinnattittar "professional" seriously... its a HOBBY/GAME, there are no professional contracts out there for 40k players. Guys that spend all their time absorbed into their hobby/game want to call themselves professional(s) fine.... i think they are a little out of touch with reality, like pro poker players, or pro Halo players, its all an f-ing joke. Pro-sports is mostly a joke too (but i still enjoy them) just so we are all on the page.

I don't think the Hot Rod example works... you can still race (play) a hot rod (army) and do well with a good engine (army list) and driver (player) no matter what the paint looks like. It's not like Orks with Red Paint Jobs.

Also, unless people out there are making enough money on 40k to support their families (maybe commission painters), I doubt anyone would call any 40k player professional.

I disagree with the tone of hcordes response, along with his assessment of certain "pro" activities. If you make money from it, you're a professional.

I feel lucky in that I currently live in an area with several different FLGS, each with a different culture. One is completely painting-optional, which is great when you want to focus on the gaming aspect. Another is more paint/fluff oriented and is fun for themematic/visual games. The other big one is more of your RTT type with an emphasis on the entire hobby.

It's great because if I want to try out my new army/list I can get games in regardless of the army/unit's status in my painting backlog. If I want to have a fluffy Apoc/PS game with lots of painted models and take some really cool pictures, I have an outlet for that. When I want to play my primary army in a RTT environment where painting/generalship both come into play, I also have an outlet for that. Each of those types appeals to different people (or in my case the same person depending on the day), and I think it would be a shame to lose any of those venues/outlets. That's why I'm a big proponent of the whole "live and let live".

hcordes wrote:@Skinnattittar "professional" seriously... its a HOBBY/GAME, there are no professional contracts out there for 40k players. Guys that spend all their time absorbed into their hobby/game want to call themselves professional(s) fine.... i think they are a little out of touch with reality, like pro poker players, or pro Halo players, its all an f-ing joke. Pro-sports is mostly a joke too (but i still enjoy them) just so we are all on the page.

There's a difference between "professional sports/games/players" and just playing 'professionally.' Being a professional is a way of acting and handling something, like being respectful and holding yourself to standards or practices. Like any occupation, including something a trivial as being a cart collector or bagger, there is a way to be professional at those jobs.

For hobbies, they have their standards and practices; standards of models and play, practices for sportsmanship and socializing. Basically how you look and how you act.

somethings out there you shouldn't really be able to make money doing. i think pro sports players are overpaid, they encourage poor education (lets drop out of college and go pro!), while yes i guess if you make money at it you can call yourself a professional... but i'm just gonna call you obsessed.

@Gornall: No doubt what you're saying makes practical sense and is the right answer in reality. But this is the internet! And the internet are srs business!

Skinnattittar wrote:

hcordes wrote:@Skinnattittar "professional" seriously... its a HOBBY/GAME, there are no professional contracts out there for 40k players. Guys that spend all their time absorbed into their hobby/game want to call themselves professional(s) fine.... i think they are a little out of touch with reality, like pro poker players, or pro Halo players, its all an f-ing joke. Pro-sports is mostly a joke too (but i still enjoy them) just so we are all on the page.

There's a difference between "professional sports/games/players" and just playing 'professionally.' Being a professional is a way of acting and handling something, like being respectful and holding yourself to standards or practices. Like any occupation, including something a trivial as being a cart collector or bagger, there is a way to be professional at those jobs.

For hobbies, they have their standards and practices; standards of models and play, practices for sportsmanship and socializing. Basically how you look and how you act.

very semantic.
i'm just gonna pass on a real responce, what i really want to say will more than likely get me banned. going to click "unsubscribe" now.

Gornall wrote:I don't think the Hot Rod example works... you can still race (play) a hot rod (army) and do well with a good engine (army list) and driver (player) no matter what the paint looks like. It's not like Orks with Red Paint Jobs.

Then you're a driver/racer, which isn't really the same thing as a hot-rodder.

Gornall wrote:Also, unless people out there are making enough money on 40k to support their families (maybe commission painters), I doubt anyone would call any 40k player professional.

Partially true, by way of multiple definitions, but playing in a professional manner and playing "professionally" are two different, but related, things.

Gornall wrote:I feel lucky in that I currently live in an area with several different FLGS, each with a different culture. One is completely painting-optional, which is great when you want to focus on the gaming aspect. Another is more paint/fluff oriented and is fun for themematic/visual games. The other big one is more of your RTT type with an emphasis on the entire hobby.

It's great because if I want to try out my new army/list I can get games in regardless of the army/unit's status in my painting backlog. If I want to have a fluffy Apoc/PS game with lots of painted models and take some really cool pictures, I have an outlet for that. When I want to play my primary army in a RTT environment where painting/generalship both come into play, I also have an outlet for that. Each of those types appeals to different people (or in my case the same person depending on the day), and I think it would be a shame to lose any of those venues/outlets. That's why I'm a big proponent of the whole "live and let live".

Again, I have no problem with people playing new and unpainted armies, or even things they only use once in a blue moon. But not painting your army simply because you don't care what your army looks like isn't professional. Its a standard, and a very popular and common one.

Manchu wrote:@Gornall: No doubt what you're saying makes practical sense and is the right answer in reality. But this is the internet! And the internet are srs business!

Indeed.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Gornall wrote:I don't think the Hot Rod example works... you can still race (play) a hot rod (army) and do well with a good engine (army list) and driver (player) no matter what the paint looks like. It's not like Orks with Red Paint Jobs.

Then you're a driver/racer, which isn't really the same thing as a hot-rodder.

And that is the very crux of it. 40k has the equivilent of drivers/racers in addition to the hot-rodders. Both use the same medium (cars/armies) to have fun, but put a different emphasis on that medium and how they achieve their fun. A professional (even using your definition) hot-rodder has a different focus than professional driver/racer. Is one any more valid than the other? I would argue NO, with the exception of contexts/venues. A professional in one context is lazy/anal-rententive in another context. I wouldn't try to enter my primered race car into an auto show, and likewise, I wouldn't bring my chromed/blinged out show car to a dirt track to race. Same goes with 40k. It's a big enough to have "drivers/racers" and "hot-rodders" both under the same general umbrella. The key is to find out what your emphasis is and find those individuals that share that emphasis to enjoy the hobby with.