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Maybe he was having a bad day. That does take some fun out of the game though, but if you are in a timmed Tourney, I guess he wanted to play and maybe he didn't want to bore you from him settng up either.

No if this was an ongoing thing, then you really have something to complain about to him.

Espically in a tourney scene where many people can be playing at one time, there are bound to be people stressed and want to play and not worry about the small details. But I do see where you are coming from andruin.

Well catch you later guys, be back in a bit, off to do some modelling and painting

@Redbeard:
Chess is a completely different beast from 40k tactically as nothing in 40k is certain... the dice are fickle. The element of chance is actually something that makes 40k more interesting as a game than chess, IMO (even if sometimes I do get hacked when the dice go against me). At the end of the day, the preference of 40k's ruleset/armies is subjective. What constitutes "better" rulesets/game systems is mostly subjective. If someone likes playing 40k for the ruleset/tactics/etc, then how is that opinion any more or less valid than those that prefer another system?

Declining ANY game is your right as long as you're polite and upfront about it. It's when people start talking down to someone that it becomes a TFG situation.

@Andruin:
And lets not turn this into non-painters = not-caring about their models/game issue. I've seen beautifully painted armies where the owner didn't know the rules or his codex at all and I've seen the same thing from unpainted armies too. Once again, it's an enjoyment/focus issue. Some people focus on painting, some on fluff, some on tactics, some on beer and pretzels, and some on combinations of the above.

Because every person has the time to paint a full army lickity split...It's not like we have, oh I don't know, jobs or lives outside of toy soldiers or anything...
/sarcasm

Just because I don't have a fully painted army doesn't mean I'm lazy or have no respect for the hobby...

I myself am a slow painter, I think my models end up looking pretty good when they're done, but I try to make them look their best, and it takes time. I'm not going to rush them and make them look crappy just for the sake of having a few colors on them to make other players happy. I want an army that makes me happy when I look at it, not one that looks like a rushed blob of red paint. Sorry, but in my opinion, if you are that much of an elitist prick that you won't play someone that doesnt have a fully painted army, then I wouldn't want to play you even if I did have a fully painted army. If I'm going to pay thousands of dollars for little plastic soldiers I'm going to take my time to make them look their best, and if I want to get a few game in in the meantime, who are you to say I shouldn't be allowed to?

(Not flaming anyone. These expressions were general and not targeted at any individual. I am just expressing my feelings on the subject in a stern, but honest way.)

Ive been painting GW models for a long time, and there are very few things in this world I like more than my fully painted army of Space Wolves on a professional terrain filled table facing off against any other army wth even a halfway decent paintjob.

I make it a point to build my lists around models that I have fully painted, I dont bother with models im not done with.

Having said that, I would not reject a game from someone without a fully painted army, I just dont really get much enjoyment out of it.

My FLGS hosts tournys all the time, and only a couple of players dont have fully painted armies (one guy with horde orks, half painted, and one guy with chaos marines, all bare)

the ork player is lazy, and the chaos player hates painting.

Ill play against either of them any time, they are still great people to hang out with. But everyone at the FLGS gives them a hard time about their armies lack of paint, and they perpetually come in 2nd and 3rd place because of soft scores at the tourneys.

in all honesty, EVERYONE has time to paint, time is never an excuse to not do anything unless you are working 2 full time jobs and taking care of children on your time out of work, then you have the time.... lets put it this way, you always have time for sex, right? no one ever complains about that? What are you doing right now? sitting online chatting on dakkadakka? WHY AREN'T YOU PAINTING? I was able to paint 3000 points of space wolves up to "best painted" status in a week, and I work full time and had to swap a motor into my friends car on the weekend.

Just yesterday after work I built, converted, primed, and basecoated 2 Leman Russ tanks, a Hellhound, and a Manticore, after that I molded the hills out of foam for a 3'x3' display board.

People who complain about time must not realize there are 24 hours in each day...

Demogerg wrote:People who complain about time must not realize there are 24 hours in each day...

no, i realize that there are 24 hours in a day, it's just that my kids dont seem to respond well when i get home from work and tell them to go play with each other while daddy paints his toy soldiers. i suppose i could tell the wife to sod off and use the little alone time we have after the kids go to sleep or i suppose the 6 or 7 hours a night of sleep that i get could be trimmed down.

good call demo, thanks for reminding us how many hours are in a day and how to manage it.

Demogerg wrote:What are you doing right now? sitting online chatting on dakkadakka? WHY AREN'T YOU PAINTING?

work will tolerate the occasional internet session but they tend to frown on painting at my desk.

Another point I will bring up in this discussion.

A while back I played in a tournament against a Games Workshop employee (I can’t, for the life of me, remember his name, but I believe he is no longer with GW. He was something like the GW North American events coordinator. He had a very nice Ultramarines army and, if I recall correctly, he built the Lost and the Damned/Beastment army featured in White Dwarf around the Eye of Terror Campaign)

Anyway – some of his associates were wandering around taking photographs of battles.

If the tournament had allowed unpainted armies I believe two things.

First, I doubt this GW employee and his friends would have come.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, had I been facing an unpainted army and these employees were wandering around taking photographs of scenic battles, perhaps for use in White Dwarf or some other publication or even blog, I’d be a tad perturbed. I’d love for my work to be shown, even in a postage stamp sized image on some blog somewhere and I’d be disappointed if I lost that chance because I was playing against an unpainted army.

Like I mentioned earlier, friendly games – no problem. Tournaments, especially club sponsored events should have minimum painting standards in place.

usernamesareannoying- how many times a month do you play games? Could you not give up one session a month to paint? That would be a couple of hours which could be a couple of units in basic colours. As I said earlier in this thread our local club plays games from 400 points upwards, depending on what army you use that could be a painted force for a small game in a couple of months without losing any quality time with family (I'm a family man myself so know where your coming from there).

If you don't enjoy painting how about trading skills with someone who does? You must have some useful skills someone might need?

Just a couple of ideas anyone could try.

Mick

The biggest issue I see coming from the pro-nonpainted armies is the time it takes to paint. If you are only looking for a basic tabletop quality, three colors and a wash is all you need. It takes my IG buddy a few minutes to put out a Guardsmen, and he barely does any fine details. He can put out an entire squad in about half an hour. He isn't exceptionally talented, he's just dedicated. It really doesn't take that much time to paint and produce an army.

usernamesareannoying wrote: no, i realize that there are 24 hours in a day, it's just that my kids dont seem to respond well when i get home from work and tell them to go play with each other while daddy paints his toy soldiers. i suppose i could tell the wife to sod off and use the little alone time we have after the kids go to sleep or i suppose the 6 or 7 hours a night of sleep that i get could be trimmed down.

Of course, no one else has responsibilities, or families or jobs. Excuses are just that. Painting, or not painting, is a choice you make. Saying you don't have time is a cop-out. If you wanted to do it, you would find the time. You don't want to - and that's fine. But don't throw the pity party about how little time you have.

I painted a 5500 point army in a week - and won best painted with it at a tournament the next weekend. If I can do that, anyone can paint a 2000 point army to a tabletop standard in three months if they can average five hours a week (that's one hour a night, just on weeknights). I'm not telling anyone to rush their work, as long as you're making progress, that's great. But seriously, five hours a week... that's like one less hour of TV each night.

I do my greenstuffing for around 20 minutes a day, sometimes every other day.
It adds up and stuff will get done.

Even 40 minutes over the course of a week can have some impressive bases at the very least...
Not saying gak doesn't happen, but you have to have some time to yourself to keep sane...even on the john... Grandfather Nurgle protects...

Redbeard wrote:

usernamesareannoying wrote: no, i realize that there are 24 hours in a day, it's just that my kids dont seem to respond well when i get home from work and tell them to go play with each other while daddy paints his toy soldiers. i suppose i could tell the wife to sod off and use the little alone time we have after the kids go to sleep or i suppose the 6 or 7 hours a night of sleep that i get could be trimmed down.

Of course, no one else has responsibilities, or families or jobs. Excuses are just that. Painting, or not painting, is a choice you make. Saying you don't have time is a cop-out. If you wanted to do it, you would find the time. You don't want to - and that's fine. But don't throw the pity party about how little time you have.

Is it a pity party? I thought that all seemed pretty reasonable. I'm kind of in the same boat, though the majority of my armies are painted. It just takes me a lot longer to get it done than my single counterparts.

My wife works nights on occasion so I have a few evenings a month that are free and clear.

I guess we have to do this at least twice a year along with the "GW Sucks", "Worst GW model", "Best GW model" and my personal favorite, "Top tiered armies are?" threads.

Anyway..... just to add my 2 cents. I love painted armies and prefer to play with and against painted, but am a realist and understand real world situations keep people from painting there plastic toys. Therefore, I have played with plastic, and have played against plastic.

GG

I can honestly say that I'm not an artist, and have no aspirations to be one. Also, I don't like painting. It takes me hours to paint a single model, and it looks like crap when I'm done. I even use a magnifying glass light thing to get a closeup so that I can paint sections and not overlap, and it still looks poor. Like most people, I dislike doing things that I'm not proficient at.

My wife paints my stuff. She also paints her stuff. She's going to paint some stuff tonight while we watch Lost. I've hired someone to paint and base some of my stuff (Ork Stormboyz done by Hulksmash here on dakka) so that we'd have a full army ready to rock for 'Ard Boyz, but I ended up not using the Stormboyz after all.

Does my point make its point? I hate painting because I'm not good at it. I love playing 40k. I started playing 40k because I saw a tactical game where I could utilize my tactical skills. Ok, that's a lie - I started 40k because a FLGS owner was a prospective customer and I bought some stuff to scratch his back. But I started playing and stuck with it for its tactical utility. My abilities pay for the hobby. I rarely enter a tournament that I don't win, and my winnings have funded almost two entire armies. That's why I play.

Painting has nothing to do with it.

I can understand the similarities between "I don't want to play with you because your army isn't painted" and "I don't want to play with you because I crave a challenge and you can't provide one," but I think that they're different too. There are people I prefer not to play against because their skill level is so abysmal that there's simply no purpose in putting my models on the table to prove that I can table them.

@Redbeard - i suppose it comes down to priorities. i would rather spend that hour with my family. congrats on managing to paint all of that, you must be a better man that i am. here's your cookie.

and keep in mind... i have said it several times now, some folk simply do not like to paint and it does not make them any less of a hobbyist because of it.

Here in Aus all / most tournies have a 3 colour minimum, and painting is worth 20%, minus bonus points.

Personally I have no real problem with it, though it is nice when you do have two painted armies.

@Red - You say it seems like a cop out or excuse, but a cop out or excuse from what? What moral/ethical authority/responsibility are they copping out from? Some people don't prioritize painting. I think it's cool that you like it as much as you do, but no one should have to feel bad saying their army isn't painted if they don't feel like painting it. I'm not one for unnecessary hassle/guilt and I have to say I feel this crosses that line pretty strongly.

I could be wrong, but I think Redbeard is trying to say that if you really wanted to paint your figures you would find time some how, even if it was only a couple of hours a week. Saying its impossible to find any time what so ever to paint due to family commitments does sound like a 'I'm going to try and make you feel guilty' tactic in this case. How much time is spent gaming rather than attending to those family commitments...?
Mick

Redbeard wrote:

usernamesareannoying wrote: no, i realize that there are 24 hours in a day, it's just that my kids dont seem to respond well when i get home from work and tell them to go play with each other while daddy paints his toy soldiers. i suppose i could tell the wife to sod off and use the little alone time we have after the kids go to sleep or i suppose the 6 or 7 hours a night of sleep that i get could be trimmed down.

Of course, no one else has responsibilities, or families or jobs. Excuses are just that. Painting, or not painting, is a choice you make. Saying you don't have time is a cop-out. If you wanted to do it, you would find the time. You don't want to - and that's fine. But don't throw the pity party about how little time you have.

I painted a 5500 point army in a week - and won best painted with it at a tournament the next weekend. If I can do that, anyone can paint a 2000 point army to a tabletop standard in three months if they can average five hours a week (that's one hour a night, just on weeknights). I'm not telling anyone to rush their work, as long as you're making progress, that's great. But seriously, five hours a week... that's like one less hour of TV each night.

Hurrzah!

Very well put Redbeard.

It's not that hard to rearrange your free time or painting habits to accomplish multi-tasking. And at this point, even statements like "Too many models" have no relevance with the GW Spraybrush being made explicitly to allow for large scale basecoating quickly.
(Whether you like it or not is not relevant. It works FANTASTIC for it, and works about x1000 better when coupled with a nice adapter to feed to a small compressor).

Mick A wrote:How much time is spent gaming rather than attending to those family commitments...?
Mick

What's wrong with gaming instead of painting? If someone has limited hobby time, I don't think they should be forced to spend it on their least favorite part of the hobby just to make someone else happy. I know if I had to choose between 2 hours of painting and 2 hours of playing a game... I'd choose the playing the game every single time.

I have 2000+ points of Salamanders. I have MAYBE 10 out of over 70 models done, and neither of my vehicles painted, and some of them are still my old Black Templars colors. When i paint, I detail EVERY SINGLE MODEL, often spending over 30 minutes on each one, up to 2 hours on one of my captains once. So it takes ALOT of time for me to paint my whole army, and I work 2 jobs and raise a 6 month old. I take a bit of time every weekend to paint a model or 2, but I'm still nowhere near done (painting right now as a matter of fact). I agree wholeheartedly on tourneys forcing painted models, but a FLGS? Thats just silly. Of course the GW in Newcastle under Tyre in the UK makes you paint and base (I refuse to base my models as of yet) before you can play. And yet they still get people in there all the time, but no one plays. I'm getting slightly off topic here, but the bottem line is not evenyone has the time, or want, to paint, and as long as theres no confusion brought about from it, theres no real need to pretend your better then them because you paint more. Its disruptive to the flow of teaching new people the game, and hurts the hobby overall, and whatever place you play at.

Gornall wrote:

Mick A wrote:How much time is spent gaming rather than attending to those family commitments...?
Mick

What's wrong with gaming instead of painting? If someone has limited hobby time, I don't think they should be forced to spend it on their least favorite part of the hobby just to make someone else happy. I know if I had to choose between 2 hours of painting and 2 hours of playing a game... I'd choose the playing the game every single time.

which is completely acceptable and a valid choice... just as someone not wanting to play against an unfinished army because a large part of the appeal of the game is visual. no one is "better" or more devoted to family as some of the more hotheaded posts in this thread claim. army building, assembly, painting, AND playing are all a part of the hobby. just because someone doesn't like one of them or simply doesn't have the time or talent to make it a part of their hobby doesn't mean that the prior sentance isn't a fact. taking this to an extreme, technically we could all be playing bases labelled with a unit type and weapons glued to the flat top except for one model per unit to be used for LOS purposes. would the "game" still be the same? yup. would it be as fun for a large portion of players out there? NOPE. people compare those who choose (and lets face it, it's a choice no matter how busy you are as you could easily give up every second game to 3 color paint an army) not to paint their armies to those who paint but don't play... there is a significant difference in that the later doesn't possibly inconvienance anyone else's fun. a more correct example would be to compare it to a person who CHOOSES not to learn the rules of the game. both playing against an unpainted army and a new (or simply one who doesn't have the time to learn the rules) is possible but not as fun as it could be.

Dashofpepper wrote:... It takes me hours to paint a single model, and it looks like crap when I'm done. I even use a magnifying glass light thing to get a closeup so that I can paint sections and not overlap, and it still looks poor. Like most people, I dislike doing things that I'm not proficient at.

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You cannot expect to be good at anything without putting in the effort to learn how. I respect your decision to choose not to pursue this skill, but I think that if you put in the effort, you could learn the skill, and then not being good would no longer be a reason to dislike it.

usernamesareannoying wrote:@Redbeard - i suppose it comes down to priorities. i would rather spend that hour with my family. congrats on managing to paint all of that, you must be a better man that i am. here's your cookie.

It has nothing to do with being a better or a worse person. It has to do with acknowledging your choices, rather than making excuses. You choose to spend your time in one way. I respect that decision. But for you to claim that you don't have time because you have a job and a family is ridiculous. I don't know anyone who doesn't have a job. I don't know many people without social obligations, whether they be to family or friends. And yet, I also don't know anyone who is unable to find a few hours a week of time to spend on themselves, while fulfilling their other obligations. I'm totally cool with your decision not to paint. I just wish you'd phrase it as such, rather than trying to blame your family and work for your lack of painting.

and keep in mind... i have said it several times now, some folk simply do not like to paint and it does not make them any less of a hobbyist because of it.

Well, it doesn't make you any less of a gamer. Opting out of part of the hobby does make you less of a hobbyist - that's sort of a definition thing. If I engage in four aspects of the hobby, and you engage in three, I do more, and you do less. Again, I'm not disrespecting your choice, just trying to be precise with language.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:@Red - You say it seems like a cop out or excuse, but a cop out or excuse from what? What moral/ethical authority/responsibility are they copping out from? Some people don't prioritize painting. I think it's cool that you like it as much as you do, but no one should have to feel bad saying their army isn't painted if they don't feel like painting it. I'm not one for unnecessary hassle/guilt and I have to say I feel this crosses that line pretty strongly.

Read the above. Again, it's not about how people choose to spend their time, it's about them blaming others for their choices. You choose not to paint, that's fine, that's on you. You say you cannot paint because your wife won't let you? Sorry, I just don't buy it. I'm married, most of my friends are married, and that's not taking responsibility for your own choices. That's what the excuse is from - taking responsibility for your own choices.

I'm just putting it out there...but this whole thread is just a mismash of:

Person 1: "I want to paint but I don't have time."

Person 2: "Make time."

Person 3: "YEAH MAKE TIME LOLOLOLOL."

Person 4: "Some people have jobs."

Person 2: "You have to get your priorities straight to participate in this hobby."

Person 1: "Who are you to say what I have to do to be a hobbyist?"

Person 3: "STOP BEING LAZY LOLOLOLOLOL!"

Person 1: "I have other things to do than paint. As much as I'd like to paint my models, I simply don't have the time to paint a whole army."

Person 2: "Make time."


And the cycle continues until it gets inflamatory and the Modquisition comes and closes the topic.

/sigh

Darth Bob wrote:I'm just putting it out there...but this whole thread is just a mismash of:

Person 1: "I want to paint but I don't have time."

Person 2: "Make time."

Person 3: "YEAH MAKE TIME LOLOLOLOL."

Person 4: "Some people have jobs."

Person 2: "You have to get your priorities straight to participate in this hobby."

Person 1: "Who are you to say what I have to do to be a hobbyist?"

Person 3: "STOP BEING LAZY LOLOLOLOLOL!"

Person 1: "I have other things to do than paint. As much as I'd like to paint my models, I simply don't have the time to paint a whole army."

Person 2: "Make time."


And the cycle continues until it gets inflamatory and the Modquisition comes and closes the topic.

/sigh

you forgot one important one.

person 5: but i don't wanna!! and you can't make me!

usernamesareannoying wrote:and keep in mind... i have said it several times now, some folk simply do not like to paint and it does not make them any less of a hobbyist because of it.

Except that they are not participating in part of the hobby. So by definition, it does make them less of a hobbyist.

I think one of the reasons that so many people get so up in arms whenever someone starts talking about some sort of standard when it comes to using painted miniatures is that they don't meet it and part of them thinks that they should and then judges themself. If you feel judged, you're the only one who can control that feeling.

I'm moving towards playing with only painted miniatures. I've told my gaming buddies that not now, but sometime in the next few months, I'm going to only play with and against painted miniatures on completed terrain. They didn't freak out and make themselves feel all judged. Instead we started scheduling painting days. And I'm showing the guy who works 100 hours a week between his job and his business how to quickly put on base colours and then wash with a future floor finish black wash.

@redbeard - i suppose things get spun out of control over the internet but i have said from the first post that i simply do not like to paint. i suppose i got caught up in the i dont have time to paint campaign defending a statement someone else has made.

there are a lot of elitist attitudes in here and again, i will say that by denying someone a game based on paint or modeling level is only preventing someone from a possibly great game.

I agree that it is nice to look at well painted models, but it takes a long time for SOME of us (and by that, I mean me...) to paint well. My Eldar, (which was my first army BTW,) took me forever to paint. I spent 2 weeks tring to get a squad of Dire Avengers painted well.

As I'm playing several armies during any given month of any year, it goes without saying that I have unpainted models all the time that I'm playing with.

Therefore, I don't judge people who play with unpainted models. I do however, judge people who anybody can easily table in 2 turns.

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT UNPAINTED MODELS!!!

*edit* Some people here keep saying they respect people for not painting their models, but still stick thier nose down at them for doing so. How can you respect somone for thier choice when your sticking your nose down on them?

Darth Bob wrote:I'm just putting it out there...but this whole thread is just a mismash of:

Person 1: "I want to paint but I don't have time."

Person 2: "Make time."

Person 3: "YEAH MAKE TIME LOLOLOLOL."

Person 4: "Some people have jobs."

Person 2: "You have to get your priorities straight to participate in this hobby."

Person 1: "Who are you to say what I have to do to be a hobbyist?"

Person 3: "STOP BEING LAZY LOLOLOLOLOL!"

Person 1: "I have other things to do than paint. As much as I'd like to paint my models, I simply don't have the time to paint a whole army."

Person 2: "Make time."


And the cycle continues until it gets inflamatory and the Modquisition comes and closes the topic.

/sigh

What he said.

frozenwastes wrote:Except that they are not participating in part of the hobby. So by definition, it does make them less of a hobbyist..

They're not participating in part of your hobby.

As I've said before in these sorts of discussions, there is a misconception in GW-gaming circles that there is some all-encompassing 'Wargaming hobby' (perpetuated in part by GW's branding of the 'GW Hobby') that includes painting & modeling, and playing, and that you have to do both in order to be participating in the hobby.

Which, to be frank, is nonsense.

Collecting miniatures is a hobby.
Painting and modeling is a hobby.
Wargaming is a hobby.

If you enjoy doing all of those things, that's great. If someone only enjoys (and only does) one or two of them, that doesn't make it any less a hobby, or them a hobbyist.

Wargaming does not exclusively involve painting miniatures. There are a whole swag of wargames out there that don't even use miniatures. To a lot of players, miniatures are no different to the tokens or cardboard chits used in any other wargame. Painting is an optional extra, not a requirement.


Don't get me wrong, I prefer playing with painted miniatures. But that's my preference. I'm not going to turn my nose up at someone else because they don't care for it.